Asher Topaz

Why do Daoist refuse to accept that nei dan(alchemy) is just another path to achieving samadhi(emptiness). Same way zen, samatha(jhana), kundalini yoga, anapanasati or patanjali yoga. Is it becuz of the energetic manipulation and secrecy?

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So is the process the MCO or Dan Tien breathing or something else. Understanding what the process is, is confusing.

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7 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

So how does one get the reward body(rupakaya) in buddhism. What cultivation techniques is he refering to. Cause master nan haui chin is not a fan of the taoist approach of nei dan. He always emphasis emptiness meditation and says zen cultivators are more on track than taoist cultivators.

 

I found another description of the rupakaya (your form body)

 

https://kibi-edu.org/teachers/jampa-thaye/lama-jampa-thaye-an-introduction-to-mahamudra/

 

Quote

Because the nature of Buddhahood is twofold: it is the two bodies of Dharmakaya and Rupakaya, and you cannot realize that only through the recognition of the nature of mind. You need also to have the structure of the path, where there is the path of merit from the Sutras or the development and completion stage from the Tantras

 

Recognition of the nature of the mind = xing.

 

The path = transformation of the gross body = ming.

 

Tantra is a path you could follow to transform the body.

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1 minute ago, johndoe2012 said:

Tantra is a path you could follow to transform the body.

It is also a path one could follow to transform the mind. In fact, I’d say that tantra primarily works on transforming the mind (make it transparent). Body work is merely a stepping stone towards the mind/consciousness work.

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5 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is also a path one could follow to transform the mind. In fact, I’d say that tantra primarily works on transforming the mind (make it transparent). Body work is merely a stepping stone towards the mind/consciousness work.

But doesnt meditation that leads to dhyana absorptions transform the body gradually. Like shamatha-vipassana approach. Where shamatha is like the ming of buddhism and vipassana is the xing of buddhism. Shamatha transforms the energy body due to purification of mind. In the surangama sutra buddha talks of samadhi deviations that lead to immortality to his disciple Ananda under the topic "The destinies of Immortals". 

 

"“Furthermore, Ananda, there are people who do not rely on proper enlightenment to cultivate samadhi, but cultivate in some special way that is based on their false thinking. Holding to the idea of perpetuating their physical bodies, they roam in the mountains and forests in places people do not go and become ten kinds of immortals'"

"Ananda, some living beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong with doses of medicine. When they have perfected this method of ingestion, they are known as earth-traveling immortals.
"Some of these beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through the use of grasses and herbs. When they have perfected this method of taking herbs, they are known as flying immortals.
"Some of these beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through the use of metal and stone. When they have perfected this method of transformation, they are known as roaming immortals.
"Some of these beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through movement cessation. When they have perfected their breath and essence, they are known as space-traveling immortals.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong by using the flow of saliva. When they have perfected the virtues of this moisture, they are known as heaven-traveling immortals.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong with the essence of sun and moon when they have perfected the inhalation of this purity, they are known as immortals of penetrating conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through mantras and prohibitions. When they have perfected these spells and Dharmas, they are known as immortals with way-conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through the use of thought-processes. When they have perfected thought and memory, they are known as immortal with illumining conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through intercourse. When they have perfected to response, they are known as immortals with essential conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through transformations and changes. When they have perfected their awakening, they are known as immortals of absolute conduct.
"Ananda, these are all people who smelt their minds but do not cultivate proper enlightenment. They obtain some special principle of life and can live for thousands or tens of thousands of years. They retire deep into the mountains or onto islands in the sea and cut themselves off from the human realm. However, they are still part of the turning wheel, because they flow and turn according to their false thinking and do not cultivate Samadhi. When their reward is finished, they must still return and enter the various destinies.

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14 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

But doesnt meditation that leads to dhyana absorptions transform the body gradually. Like shamatha-vipassana approach. Where shamatha is like the ming of buddhism and vipassana is the xing of buddhism. Shamatha transforms the energy body due to purification of mind. In the surangama sutra buddha talks of samadhi deviations that lead to immortality to his disciple Ananda under the topic "The destinies of Immortals"

Meditation IS dhyana. The preparatory stages may/may not involve physical transformation. What is required for dhyana is stillness/stability of the body. If you read Patanjali’s yoga sutras, he defines asana as a stable physical posture.  I am not a Buddhist so can’t answer about shamata and vipassana.
 

Similar techniques are also part of (and the Buddhist versions most likely derive from) Hindu traditions, albeit not named as such, and are not given as much importance (as in Buddhism). 
 

Of course, that doesn’t mean that physical transformation doesn’t have value — in order to meditate properly the internal energies need to be transformed from kinetic (Rajas)  and slothful (Tamas) into clarity (satva). Some physical manipulation is required in order to bring that about. But what kind? Any mindfully performed repetitive action will result in meditation. So we have stories about monks who spent time quietly grinding grains in monasteries being able to attain great stillness and clarity. 
 

How someone’s constitution is, their age, etc plays a big role in what needs to happen in order to prepare for meditation. 

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shamatha isnt necessarily anything bodily related and would never be recomended for such the kasinas are what youd aim for and even those are quite rudimentary and just because it would do something for the body doesnt mean it will necesarily lengthen your lifespan  which would require far more specfic objects namely those that keep the body going there is a reason why yuan jing as an example is water related which does not mean it is water , lets just say the water of your body is like 90% your made of ,remember that shamatha was practiced even by pre buddhism and has little to do with buddhism. one thing for sure the buddha was able to keep his body together through his attainment but wasnt willing to do it for long( this stuff costs effort to maintain).the truth is even acsess concentration uppacara samadhi is enough to unify the mind and one can gain some level of psychic power thats far of from jhana in short there are thousands of mental absorptions or unifications with many things whether form or formless .buddha said one of the things that can make you crazy is trying to discern the diffrent samadhis.i also dont understand what having the ability to concentrate which is for sure bodily related have to do with immortality by itself which isnt that hard to believe to be possible if you have 5000 years and a lot of crazily obsessed people with immortality theyll try theyll fail but probably get what they want sooner or later afterall if western science can do ridiculas stuff like nukes and guns why wouldnt a society with conviction and time be unable to do the something they wish to develop i amnot saying you couldnt die more like in theory you could live very long lets be realistic expecialy nowdays with our poisonious lifestyles lol and yes all samadhis feel like your in union and not there and whatnot most of the time the amazament and expeierncal changes vanish after a few months(not completetly) and in the end doesnt give you much its not something that realy satisfys you long term which is what most people strive for.

Edited by Vinh Ott

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People are being too obsessed with their bodies in this thread. Body is impermanent.
Click me anywhere where you are able to see any single immortal "body". It is just as real as pink unicorns flying around.
Everyone who has lived in the past = died.

Everyone.

Edited by XianGong

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i wouldnt make such claims the world is big and weird . its defenitly not uncommon to hear a daoist master reach an older age while buddhists sometimes dont life long meaning(id make that claim)the standard monk, how that looks at the edge of the distribution i cant say. i am certain though that what a culture strives for matters.from my own experience the objects daoist tend to get absorbed in do have more of a health benefit.

Edited by Vinh Ott

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Just now, Vinh Ott said:

i wouldnt make such claims the world is big and weird . its defenitly not uncommon to hear a daoist master reach an older age while buddhists sometimes dont life long considering(id make that claim)the standard how that looks at the edge of the distribution i cant say i am certain though that what a culture strives for matters.

 

Hear something somewhere, is not how you talk online or in person.
I hear pink unicorns flying, can u see that?

There are a lot of people in the caucasian mountains who live to 120, without ever hearing about any kind of Dao nonsense, or doing any kind of Qi exercise, or any meditation in their life, ever.

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i mean there is certainly something real through which the myth of the pink unicorn originated reality is just most of the time not exactly our concepts but concepts are always based on reality.

Edited by Vinh Ott

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2 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

i mean there is certainly something real through which the myth of the pink unicorn originated reality is just most of the time not exactly our concepts but concepts are always based on reality.


Oh, so now pink unicorns are real, that was fast.

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didnt claim that merely claiming that the ability to arrange a donkey a horn and add the color pink is something you can do and reality posses the capacity for that even if only in your mind. or if your interested in its plastic brothers/sisters thats an option too. 

Edited by Vinh Ott

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30 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

didnt claim that merely claiming that the ability to arrange a donkey a horn and add the color pink is something you can do and reality posses the capacity for that even if only in your mind. or if your interested in its plastic brothers/sisters thats an option too. 


Well, let's discuss it. How do you think Pink Unicorns came to be and Why?

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8 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

maybe a rhino with skin disease and a lot of exageration.


Do you think it is Rhino who contracted rare skin disease and then shit so hard, it thinned out to look more like a horse?

Have you ever heard of ancient priests performing rituals to crossbreed different species?

Did you see a picture of Sphinx? Minotaur?

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whatever you say.my point is id rather go to a doctor to be treated for bodily illness than to a physcist although both have there value.the all is equal for every purpose approach just doesnt work for such things.similarly if immortality is my goal id rather look in a society obsessed with it not implying you should under any and every circumstances.

Edited by Vinh Ott

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12 hours ago, Vinh Ott said:

whatever you say.my point is id rather go to a doctor to be treated for bodily illness than to a physcist although both have there value.the all is equal for every purpose approach just doesnt work for such things.similarly if immortality is my goal id rather look in a society obsessed with it not implying you should under any and every circumstances.


I mean if you want immortality, first find an immortal. As you can't find it, your search is just to waste time.

 

How about starting with newbies exercises like few hours of Zhan Zhuang a day and don't think about any immortality in the next 30 years?

Usually, people are obsessed with things they do not have..

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i never said i wanted it or needed it i was merely impying if somone wished to find them than id look into a society rich with myths of immortals rather than one who isnt reporting such a phenomena, and just because one has a theoreticly unlimited lifespan doesnt mean he is going to live that out a gun can easily put an end to somones lifespan, an accident could, lifesytle matters aswell science right now is pretty close finding a sort of immortality doesnt mean the people having it will live forever ofc, aside only those who can afford it will be getting it but it is there implying there can be something such as immortality so reality smiles upon me for the possibility is there ,something to do with dna and telomers you can also take the blood of infants to get significantly younger(transfusion) so all that realy matters are the resources avaible to you and a lot of people who have the resources probably do such treatments right now, many will throw away there fortune for a few added years of youth in the next decade .

Edited by Vinh Ott

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2 hours ago, Vinh Ott said:

 

you can also take the blood of infants to get significantly younger(transfusion) 

And you have some published research that support this idea? 

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The term of Immortal is only a translation.  The direct literal translation is Mountain Man, with extra long lifespan as one of the many abilities.  It doesn't mean having life forever.  It is generally agreed there are 5 levels of immortals.  From the 3rd level,  the earth immortals, only then gives a lifespan of a few hundred years.  Even for the highest level, which is no longer a human, can live indefinitely, but still dies in the end.

 

There are still sightings that Wudang mountain still has at least one, with the extraordinary feat of floating in air.   It is reasonable to look for them in places of myth and folklore.  Who would look for Loch Ness monster in the lake of the Central Park?

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4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

And you have some published research that support this idea? 


Sadly (and unsurprisingly perhaps) this has been studied quite a bit in mice.

 

I’ve not read any actual studies (bores me to death) but I’ve read some articles relating the results of the studies (which admittedly could be spun in any direction).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/02/could-young-blood-stop-us-getting-old-transfusions-experiments-mice-plasma

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not saying in of itself will have such an effect more like the combo with a few other things can definitly extend your life alot ,the problem would be if your also eating unhealthy, doing alcohol etc which would obviously be detrimental so it would work if those conditions are met aswell, you can probably harvest some good organs too afterall people dont die of telomers shortening they mostly die of failing organs and wer getting far better at cloning those which would be helpful to overcome the rejection medication,some hormones which are relevant to longevity the body also stops producing at a certain age so better get a supply of those too .so in short healthy stressfree lifestyle can help a lot but that doesnt mean the ways of influencing aging stop there not saying youll be able to afford it.

Edited by Vinh Ott

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On 10/13/2021 at 10:35 AM, freeform said:

Sadly (and unsurprisingly perhaps) this has been studied quite a bit in mice.

 

I’ve not read any actual studies (bores me to death) but I’ve read some articles relating the results of the studies (which admittedly could be spun in any direction).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/02/could-young-blood-stop-us-getting-old-transfusions-experiments-mice-plasma

 

 

Yes, this is a thing. And in Silicon Valley some of the more (40-50+ years of age) prominent biohackers are having younger guys' blood tapped and then they do transfusion (usually of plasma).

 

I know this how? I am a medical doctor in the field and science of longevity (colloquially known as 'anti-aging) and endocrinology. 

 

If I'm not mistaken there was a Silicon Valley company that started offering so-called young blood transfusions. 

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