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Some years ago there were two suicides in my locality, which were made known to me. Both were horrific and public. From the information available it seems that neither were planned, but seemingly spontaneous events. This led to a deep dread in me that if they could feel that desire who is safe from it.

 

I would like to know if any others here have knowledge or experience of the subject.

Edited by rocala
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As youngster ( I am thinking 15 years old ) I worked at a snack stand at a local concert venue. We sold hot dogs pizza chips and Pepsi.

There were 2 entrances each manned by security to prevent booze and or food inside.

We had 3 stands inside and two outside, one near each entrance.

 

The outside stands were preferred as they were generally slower than the inside stands.

And security confiscated a lot of booze.

After filling their vehicles with their choice of bounty, they would trade a case of beer for couple of hotdogs or slices of pizza.

We had 2 large plastic containers full of ice and Pepsi's. It wasn't uncommon for 1 or both to be filled with beer at the end of the night.

 

I worked with a Mutt and Jeff pair, and at least one of the pair would work an outside stand.

In short order they both became alcoholics.

Busted for possession of heroin, they were jailed in separate cells in which they hung themselves.

 

I found it to be a very selfish act and consider it so in most cases. 

I also think in their case it was due in part due to their immaturity and illicit substance use.

They were around my age when it happened.

 

I don't think of it often...  but every August they come to mind.

Edited by liminal_luke
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On 14/8/2020 at 6:26 AM, natural said:

 

I found it to be a very selfish act and consider it so in most cases. 

 

 

Many people share this idea that suicide is selfish.  When my partner tried to kill himself, I thought "how could he do this to me?"  But of course it wasn´t about me.  It was about his mental illness.  Unless we´ve had catastrophic mental illness ourselves I don´t think we´re really in a position to judge.  I urge compassion.

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Compassion is a dish best shared.

I understand that a person(s) in immediate crisis isn't considering much more than the agony they are facing.

I don't have much compassion on the jailers who allowed two juveniles to commit suicide.

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When lost in a storm of pain... any way out can become a beacon, and this idea, in the midst of such agony can develop into seeming like the only possible hope of release.  This notion can become an anchor point in a mind lost in pain, a focus of relief in a mind reeling in perpetual agony.  The younger brother of my best friend in high school ended his own life.  I witnessed up close the devastation wrought in the aftermath among those who love the one who chooses to leave.  His decision seemed spontaneous and not thought out.  He called his father who was on the line with him when he pulled the trigger.

 

Three years ago, I was lying on the sofa around 10pm on a Sunday evening listening to the television with eyes closed.  It is quite out of character for me to be awake two hours past my usual sleep time.  I was about to move to the bed chastising myself in my mind for remaining awake when my wife, unprompted, shared the following in a very low, calm voice.

 

"I can't keep living this pain any longer.  It's been decades.  I've been fighting this my entire life.  I rented a storage unit.   I can't keep fighting every day just to be living in ceaseless pain.  I was planning on parking the car in there, closing the door and ending my life.  I need help."

 

I've seldom been so grateful for a series of painful words in my lifetime.  So incredibly grateful she gave me the gift of reaching out.

 

I called in the next morning and stopped working on the show, and spent the next four months with her, every day, every hour, every minute.  We did the shopping together, taking our son to school together, I took her with me on my walks, or I didn't go on a walk.  She was never alone in that time for five minutes because from experience I knew how quickly an attempt can come when the idea arises.

 

I knew from my own almost acted on impulses in my past.  And this 'five minute window' regarding many suicide attempts had been reinforced years earlier while discussing suicide and the impulses to attempt it, with a dear friend who had also contemplated and attempted it himself and who also had experience working a hotline.

 

In many cases, people who survive a suicide attempt, who are willing to discuss it admit to one commonality... their attempt was rather spontaneous and came within a few minutes of the thought arising in the moment.

 

That trusted friend who shared this with me, further shared that their main goal while working the lines was to keep the person reaching out engaged and talking for as long as possible, to allow the impetus that is driving the idea of making an attempt at that moment, to lose inertia and pass.  Getting someone 10-20 minutes along can be enough for the driving impetus in the moment to shift.   So I stayed with her, every moment until the energy had shifted and I could trust she was in a different state of mind.

 

The attempts that usually do not fail, are those that are planned out in detail and advance, i.e. specific date (sometimes months away), certain other conditions being met.  Another trait to look for related to this and a sign to begin checking in with chronically depressed friends and acquaintences, is a sudden shift from abject pain to one of relaxation and ease.  This can be a signal that their decision has been made and the plan is formulated.  The presence of this plan and knowing that they now have an out from the pain puts them at ease. 

 

Both my wife and I have considered suicide.  She attempted it once in high school.

 

I'm still not conscious of what shifted my impulse and stayed my hand while I rested against that Oak tree, knife to my jugular, but looking back it took me more than five minutes to walk to the park to the tree I spontaneously chose to bleed out onto... but on the walk back home from the Park where I had been set to finish my life this thought settled in awareness.  "The one constant in this universe, is change.  Even this perpetual seeming pain must change, even if it's to another kind of pain.  So no permanent decisions during temporary emotions and storms." 

 

I have not found the limit of my compassion and empathy for those in perpetual spinning pain.  I don't blame Brian for his decision, but I miss him dearly.

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When your energy is down in the Underworld....death feels easy.

 

If its a karmic situation.....your options are too die (leave the body) or slave through the debts. For an energetic ailment....it can be remedied by a skilled healer. 

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On 14/8/2020 at 12:41 PM, silent thunder said:

 

"I can't keep living this pain any longer.  It's been decades.  I've been fighting this my entire life.  I rented a storage unit.   I can't keep fighting every day just to be living in ceaseless pain.  I was planning on parking the car in there, closing the door and ending my life.  I need help."

 

I've seldom been so grateful for a series of painful words in my lifetime.  So incredibly grateful she gave me the gift of reaching out.

 

I called in the next morning and stopped working on the show, and spent the next four months with her, every day, every hour, every minute.  We did the shopping together, taking our son to school together, I took her with me on my walks, or I didn't go on a walk.  She was never alone in that time for five minutes because from experience I knew how quickly an attempt can come when the idea arises.

 

 

 I think your wife is exceedingly fortunate to have had your care.  That she is doing better now is a testament to your devotion during that time.

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A humbling topic and discussion.

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 to those who have shared.

A good friend lost his daughter to suicide.

I can’t imagine his pain.

 

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I was on a residential course once. One of the others was a very quiet man of about 70. One day the group was just sitting around and talking when the old man just fell to the ground and was sobbing uncontrollably. It took a while to get him calmed down so that he could talk to us.

 

When he was a young man he had come home from work to find that his wife had killed herself, leaving him with two small daughters. He had never remarried. Around twenty years later his eldest daughter killed herself on the anniversary of her mothers death. Something in the conversation had reminded him of his wife.

 

I will never forget that poor man and his life of suffering.

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On 14/08/2020 at 4:27 PM, liminal_luke said:

 

Many people share this idea that suicide is selfish.  When my partner tried to kill himself, I thought "how could he do this to me?"  But of course it wasn´t about me.  It was about his mental illness.  Unless we´ve had catastrophic mental illness ourselves I don´t think we´re really in a position to judge.  I urge compassion.

 

The world is a mosh pit.

 

Sometimes we fall. The good guys help us back up.

 

We can catch people early enough just by paying attention. Sometimes an outsider will know without even needing to have that conversation.

 

Look out for each other. It's the least selfish thing we can all do.

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On 14/08/2020 at 6:41 PM, silent thunder said:

When lost in a storm of pain... any way out can become a beacon, and this idea, in the midst of such agony can develop into seeming like the only possible hope of release.  This notion can become an anchor point in a mind lost in pain, a focus of relief in a mind reeling in perpetual agony.  The younger brother of my best friend in high school ended his own life.  I witnessed up close the devastation wrought in the aftermath among those who love the one who chooses to leave.  His decision seemed spontaneous and not thought out.  He called his father who was on the line with him when he pulled the trigger.

 

Three years ago, I was lying on the sofa around 10pm on a Sunday evening listening to the television with eyes closed.  It is quite out of character for me to be awake two hours past my usual sleep time.  I was about to move to the bed chastising myself in my mind for remaining awake when my wife, unprompted, shared the following in a very low, calm voice.

 

"I can't keep living this pain any longer.  It's been decades.  I've been fighting this my entire life.  I rented a storage unit.   I can't keep fighting every day just to be living in ceaseless pain.  I was planning on parking the car in there, closing the door and ending my life.  I need help."

 

I've seldom been so grateful for a series of painful words in my lifetime.  So incredibly grateful she gave me the gift of reaching out.

 

I called in the next morning and stopped working on the show, and spent the next four months with her, every day, every hour, every minute.  We did the shopping together, taking our son to school together, I took her with me on my walks, or I didn't go on a walk.  She was never alone in that time for five minutes because from experience I knew how quickly an attempt can come when the idea arises.

 

I knew from my own almost acted on impulses in my past.  And this 'five minute window' regarding many suicide attempts had been reinforced years earlier while discussing suicide and the impulses to attempt it, with a dear friend who had also contemplated and attempted it himself and who also had experience working a hotline.

 

In many cases, people who survive a suicide attempt, who are willing to discuss it admit to one commonality... their attempt was rather spontaneous and came within a few minutes of the thought arising in the moment.

 

That trusted friend who shared this with me, further shared that their main goal while working the lines was to keep the person reaching out engaged and talking for as long as possible, to allow the impetus that is driving the idea of making an attempt at that moment, to lose inertia and pass.  Getting someone 10-20 minutes along can be enough for the driving impetus in the moment to shift.   So I stayed with her, every moment until the energy had shifted and I could trust she was in a different state of mind.

 

The attempts that usually do not fail, are those that are planned out in detail and advance, i.e. specific date (sometimes months away), certain other conditions being met.  Another trait to look for related to this and a sign to begin checking in with chronically depressed friends and acquaintences, is a sudden shift from abject pain to one of relaxation and ease.  This can be a signal that their decision has been made and the plan is formulated.  The presence of this plan and knowing that they now have an out from the pain puts them at ease. 

 

Both my wife and I have considered suicide.  She attempted it once in high school.

 

I'm still not conscious of what shifted my impulse and stayed my hand while I rested against that Oak tree, knife to my jugular, but looking back it took me more than five minutes to walk to the park to the tree I spontaneously chose to bleed out onto... but on the walk back home from the Park where I had been set to finish my life this thought settled in awareness.  "The one constant in this universe, is change.  Even this perpetual seeming pain must change, even if it's to another kind of pain.  So no permanent decisions during temporary emotions and storms." 

 

I have not found the limit of my compassion and empathy for those in perpetual spinning pain.  I don't blame Brian for his decision, but I miss him dearly.

 

Bless you.

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On 8/13/2020 at 12:02 PM, rocala said:

Some years ago there were two suicides in my locality, which were made known to me. Both were horrific and public. From the information available it seems that neither were planned, but seemingly spontaneous events. This led to a deep dread in me that if they could feel that desire who is safe from it.

 

I would like to know if any others here have knowledge or experience of the subject.

 

.... since the idea of suicide is out there, no one is safe from it.  Just like no one is safe from drivers on the road...

But, like any danger to oneself - it can be prevented and avoided by practicing certain things that don't allow it to become prevalent in ones life.  All suicides are expressions of escapism, wanting to be somewhere else for whatever reason.  So, if you like who you are, where you are, and what you are continually doing.... there's little chance for the idea of suicide to ever take root.  

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I have some thoughts about this.

what suicide can be...

- quick way when big suffering is expected... one of my father friend ended his life.. He was a plastic surgeon , he was successful

He had good cars.. women... he had holiday in Alaska. Suddenly, he was diagnosed with fatal illness. I think sudden change was so big, he could not bear it.. and he wanted to avoid suffering

-another friend of my father... he had a painful illness I think

- another case. he had sinus infection for a long time.. he could not heal...he had high position in a ministry.. He could not bear after a while... and....

-so basically, trying to get out of hopeless situation, trying to avoid further suffering.

reaching mental limits of fighting..for life.

-running low on energy.

-not finding solution for life problems

- one sided personality development... when you set a goal very high. (maximalism). and you do not allow failure as an option.

- falling in position in life.. and fall is too big.

-becoming your own enemy....so you want to overcome something too hard.. without sense of proportion.

-balancing problem

-executing an internal self destruct programs because you thought that is what one of your relatives wanted when you were little.. and you listened to them... executing like a robot deep unconscious program. almost like hypnotic command.

-being overwhelmed by life.. not resting enough.. not recuperating

-not being able to accept what you are or not being to able to face what your are.

-self punishment

 

 

ideas for remedy:

- love if you can receive

-energy

-being able to connect people that can give energy

-finding a person who is willing to give you a lot of energy

- listening to yourself, supporting yourself instead of trying to overcome yourself."I kill myself" you can hear this sometimes one somebody has made big mistake and angry with himself.

 

-

 

Edited by centertime
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At 24 I quit working at a computer store and went back packing to see the world.  Was gone for 4 months.  When I got back I learned the boss had committed suicide.  He was a nice guy.  I wish he'd gone with me instead.  If he was so distraught with his life, instead of ending it, walking away for awhile.  Seeing the world in 2 bit hostels, the excitement of new people, new places. 

 

A girlfriend told me about a string of suicides that happened in her highschool.  So sad.  For a teen the world is full of drama, anxiety and comparisons.  Hang on, seek help, age out of it; so many of those problems are phantoms, not real.  We gain perspective and make our own life. 

 

A neighbor about ten years older then me was struck with very bad back pain.  Excruciating and it wasn't going away.  He felt like suicide, bought a gun.  Didn't use it, and you know, the pain went away.  Life went on, his kids grew up, married, he has tons of grand kids now.  He plays with them, which makes his back hurt, but these days its not so bad.

 

Life is a precious gift.  During the bad times, keep going, it changes, gets better. 

 

 

 

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It could be because of weak communities as well... People are not supporting each other emotionally or otherwise.

Communities are not working well enough to support its members. (I mean families..)

-alienation in modern society.

 

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Here's what the top three lines of the global counter of the leading causes of death look like today:

 

1.Suicide

2.Covid-19

3.Malaria

 

This is pretty shocking, considering that the first two lines have never been in the leading position before in all of human history.  

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One of the strengths of traditional training is developing a new relationship to pain. 
 

There was a pivotal moment for me.
 

After several hours of standing under the watchful eye of an old teacher, I promised myself not to drop to the floor, or stretch and adjust as I had done regularly for several months prior when the intense pain came.


Of course the pain would just build in intensity - this unbearable feeling that you can’t handle it any longer.

 

Then all of a sudden this visceral realisation that the ‘unbearability’ of the pain was 100% mental - and was a choice.

 

And at that moment I realised I don’t need to feel aversion to the pain any more - I could choose to just let it be. So I did. The actual pain suddenly stopped mattering. The real relief was in the mind - the body still hurt. But the relief was profound - and life altering in many ways.

 

Having asked serious internal arts practitioners about this - many have had this very experience too.

 

I wish we all had the opportunity to experience this.
 

I’m sure the hardship of life in the past probably afforded this experience to almost everyone at some point. And for cultures that were comfortable, I suspect they all had rituals and approaches to create this experience for their people.

 

Nowadays I find myself with a whole new relationship with pain as a result of a recent internal shift. Now pain physically doesn’t even register as ‘painful’. Just as the feeling of a crease in a tshirt against your skin - it’s just information, and it can even just as easily slip out of direct awareness unnoticed. 
 

This I wouldn’t wish for everyone - not if you’re not prepared to suffer some inadvertent damage to your body.

Edited by freeform
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I once took care of a beautiful young girl who tied a rope around her neck and jumped from a 5 story window. The rope broke, she broke her back, and was paralyzed from the waist down. Her desire to die evaporated and her will to live was immense during her recovery. If only she’d found a way to access that before jumping...

 

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On 9/12/2020 at 9:50 AM, freeform said:

Of course the pain would just build in intensity - this unbearable feeling that you can’t handle it any longer.

 

Then all of a sudden this visceral realisation that the ‘unbearability’ of the pain was 100% mental - and was a choice.

 

And at that moment I realised I don’t need to feel aversion to the pain any more - I could choose to just let it be. So I did. The actual pain suddenly stopped mattering. The real relief was in the mind - the body still hurt. But the relief was profound - and life altering in many ways.

 

Having asked serious internal arts practitioners about this - many have had this very experience too.

Your words resonate almost exactly my experience...

 

I lived with Chronic Pain for years and then one moment, one day... something cracked open inside awareness and the living realization dawned and flooded through me like light.

 

In Life, there will be discomfort, there may be pain... this does not mean there must be suffering.

 

bam... like that, a new relationship to 'sensation' developed.

 

 

 

I shared that sentiment with an old timer veteran of the movie biz, shortly before he retired and he smiled and said.

 

"Pain is a level of sensation that mind deems unacceptable."

 

edit to add:  in more recent years this applies to the emotional and mental as well as the physical. 

Edited by silent thunder
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On 12.9.2020 at 6:50 PM, freeform said:

One of the strengths of traditional training is developing a new relationship to pain. 
 

There was a pivotal moment for me.
 

After several hours of standing under the watchful eye of an old teacher, I promised myself not to drop to the floor, or stretch and adjust as I had done regularly for several months prior when the intense pain came.


Of course the pain would just build in intensity - this unbearable feeling that you can’t handle it any longer.

 

Then all of a sudden this visceral realisation that the ‘unbearability’ of the pain was 100% mental - and was a choice.

 

And at that moment I realised I don’t need to feel aversion to the pain any more - I could choose to just let it be. So I did. The actual pain suddenly stopped mattering. The real relief was in the mind - the body still hurt. But the relief was profound - and life altering in many ways.

 

Having asked serious internal arts practitioners about this - many have had this very experience too.

 

I wish we all had the opportunity to experience this.
 

I’m sure the hardship of life in the past probably afforded this experience to almost everyone at some point. And for cultures that were comfortable, I suspect they all had rituals and approaches to create this experience for their people.

 

Nowadays I find myself with a whole new relationship with pain as a result of a recent internal shift. Now pain physically doesn’t even register as ‘painful’. Just as the feeling of a crease in a tshirt against your skin - it’s just information, and it can even just as easily slip out of direct awareness unnoticed. 
 

This I wouldn’t wish for everyone - not if you’re not prepared to suffer some inadvertent damage to your body.


I had a similar experience in meditation once. My legs started falling asleep but since I had decided to sit entirely still for the duration of my sit no matter what I didn't adjust my legs, which would have solved the problem. And since I made no adjustments the falling asleep sensations eventually turned into extreme pain. Probably the worst I have ever felt. I sat  noticing my awareness try to dissociate from the pain but kept bringing my awareness back to include the pain. After about 15 minutes something shifted and I started to accept the pain fully. 95% of what had felt to me like purely physical pain vanished. There was still some form of experience of intense pain there but it was more like it was a movie experience I was seeing rather than something that was bothering me. 

I haven't been able to use this for a big shift in my relationship to pain in daily life though. I think I need more meditation time for that. 


 

Edited by markern
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32 minutes ago, markern said:

... since I had decided to sit entirely still for the duration of my sit no matter what I didn't adjust my legs,

When younger, I decided to sit still till enlightenment. Result, my toe turned black due to a blood clot. Fortunately I then stopped, went to the GP and lived to tell the tale, lol.

Edited by Cobie
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"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer. And if it is true, as Nietzsche claims, that a philosopher, to deserve our respect, must preach by example, you can appreciate the importance of that reply, for it will precede the definitive act. These are facts the heart can feel; yet they call for careful study before they become clear to the intellect."

-- Albert Camus

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33 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer. And if it is true, as Nietzsche claims, that a philosopher, to deserve our respect, must preach by example, you can appreciate the importance of that reply, for it will precede the definitive act. These are facts the heart can feel; yet they call for careful study before they become clear to the intellect."

-- Albert Camus

This

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