dwai

Xing and Ming cultivation

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1 hour ago, Bindi said:


 


 

Not from any particular view, just from my own, to me being controlled by thoughts, emotions, etc, is to be controlled by what freeform referred to earlier as ‘acquired personal nature’. I agree that this is the case, we are controlled by these things, but I don’t believe there is a need to control this acquired personal nature, or that this is the goal. For me our consciousness is mistakenly identified with acquired personal nature, and needs to somehow get past this and identify with ‘congenital virtuous nature’ which is the sapling or seed hidden within the nature of the door. 
 

In this sense, your equation “samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same” is not true, as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same. 
 

@ freeform and @ walker, If this is far different from the daoist view I stand to be corrected 🙂
 

 

 

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. 

 

Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: 

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

 

However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: 
 

The bright mirror is
originally clear and pure.
Where could there be any dust?

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

 

And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. 

 

The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror? :) 

 

You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us :) 

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55 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. 

 

Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: 

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

 

However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: 
 

The bright mirror is
originally clear and pure.
Where could there be any dust?

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

 

And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. 

 

The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror? :) 

 

You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us :) 


To me, I guess there is a chain of command, dao -> congenital virtuous nature -> the mind of thoughts and emotions. So to me the bright mirror would be congenital virtuous nature which is a reflection of the dao, and the mind (and heart and ldt) would be where the dust and mud have gotten lodged, eclipsing congenital virtuous nature. I have nothing against the mind, if it’s operating correctly within its systems specifications. Just my thoughts as well 🙂

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On 2/13/2020 at 8:44 AM, anshino23 said:

At least that was my understanding. I didn't think that an ill person could go directly to alchemical practice and transform and heal their chronic ailments. Never seen it at least

 

Well, that settles it then. :)

 

On 2/13/2020 at 9:15 AM, freeform said:

These are not ‘healing arts’ in themselves - they are spiritual arts with a byproduct of healing (because a healthy body and mind are more efficient vehicles for spiritual practice!) 

 

There are healing arts too... Like chinese medicine or Qi emission healing or herbs...

 

Although I can't say there's anything wrong with what you are saying here, this is not my understanding at all. I'm quoting it here to see if I'll remember to check it further down the road to see if my perspective has changed.

Thank you very much for your posts and for sharing the Teachings of Daoism.

 

 

On 2/14/2020 at 9:09 AM, freeform said:

Disappearing in a flash of pure white light is a sign of 'finally arriving' - meaning there is no need to return... but one can come and go as one pleases.

 

Long?

 

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2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Well, that settles it then. :)

 

Did I imply that it settled it? It was more of an open question than a statement of fact. I don't know what's possible. I'm open to all of it. If you believe in Buddhas and immortals, then transforming and curing chronic ailments isn't much a stretch of imagination. :) 

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5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

What about white light manifesting when no one's body passes on?

 

Extreme white light manifestations with multiple witnesses?


Thats known as “the striking of Ling” - it begins in the inner vision and then usually manifests as something like a lightning strike in front of the person experiencing it - and it’s completely visible to witnesses.

 

This is the start of the stage after the blissful awakening stage. Equivalent to achieving (an experience of) 2nd Jhanna 

Edited by freeform
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4 hours ago, freeform said:


Thats known as “the striking of Ling” - it begins in the inner vision and then usually manifests as something like a lightning strike in front of the person experiencing it - and it’s completely visible to witnesses.

 

This is the start of the stage after the blissful awakening stage. Equivalent to achieving (an experience of) 2nd Jhanna 

Thank you.

 

This light experience manifested for my wife and I rather recently (within last few years). 

 

I've shared the question several times, you're the first to offer a description of it.  *bow*  thanks again.

Edited by silent thunder
made it concise
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On 15/02/2020 at 7:14 AM, anshino23 said:

 

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. 

 

Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: 

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

 

However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: 
 

The bright mirror is
originally clear and pure.
Where could there be any dust?

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

 

And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. 

 

The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror? :) 

 

You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us :) 


 

The Quanzhen master and founder] Wang Zhe’s own writings refer to two men – one Taoist and one Buddhist – who appear to have given him some guidance... [He] appears to have been particularly familiar with two major Mahayana Buddhist scriptures – the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra. He was probably also familiar with some Chan literature... However, as Hachiya has astutely observed, Wang Zhe did not abide by the thoroughgoing negation and non-assertion of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. Fond as he was of borrowing Buddhist language to preach detachment from this provisional, fleeting world of samsara, Wang Zhe ardently believed in the eternal, universal Real Nature/Radiant Spirit that is the ground and wellspring of consciousness (spirit, shen, xing), and vitality (qi, ming) within all living beings. This to him was not “empty”(lacking inherent existence); it was fully Real (zhen).

 

From The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters by Stephen Eskildsen (pages 6-7)

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This book has arrived a couple weeks ago but looking at the printing it seems to be a copy. Anyone here knows if this is possible? Do they sell copies of original books in China?

Hope the text inside is the same as the original. :lol:

Haven't searched yet for Ming Gong and Xing Gong.

 

 

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/113RsU0.jpg

 

Edited by KuroShiro

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