What is the most straight forward path to enlightenment

[freeform]

People dedicate their entire lives to reaching enlightenment and very few achieve anything close to it!

 

So we can assume there are no straight forward paths. And we'll most likely never achieve enlightenment  

 

So walk the path because that’s what you’re called to do. Not to reach the top. But don’t walk aimlessly either. Resign to the fact that you’ll achieve nothing. But work at it to your fullest ability.

 

In terms of spiritual systems the Taoist Alchemical path is the one for me. I like that it’s practical and grounded. It’s not monastic. There are very few rules. The ones that do exist are deep and elegant (humour, humility and not taking things too seriously)

 

There’s an aspect of anarchy and chaos in Taoism that appeals to me. There’s also this aspect of hacking the system. Slightly dangerous, but very effective and interesting. And there’s this unfathomable depth in all the Taoist alchemical arts with minimal cultural adorenemnts. It’s almost like a science.

 

And that is what I love about this path. But it’s not for everyone! It’s very difficult. Both physically and mentally.  

 

This is the path where you may have to stand in a posture for 7hrs straight. It’s also the path where you’re told that you’ve only just started actually meditating when you’ve reached the level of full absorption for 3hrs without moving (either physically or with the mind) - everything before that is just sitting.

 

It’s a path where you must have a real teacher. But it’s littered with thousands of fake teachers. Even ones who have genuine skill will often be deviant and unethical. It’s a path with lots of tempting side paths and deviations.

 

So yeah - not straight forward. Not easy. But I doubt there’s a legitimate path that is! Just enjoy the journey and do your best. At the very least it’s better than wasting time watching porn, eating junk and craving that next consumer product.

[steve]

10 hours ago, falcon said:

 

Hi Rene,

I was just about to comment on this too! I love the simplicity and effectiveness Dzogchen entails. It is known as the doctrine free from exertion, the great completeness.

 

I'm a little distraught however, because from what I have picked up on about it is that the realization of rigpa cannot be first be introduced without a qualified lama. 

 

However, I am skeptical of this claim because we all inherently have buddhahood within us "so they all say" 

 

Steve, Care to bite again?

Sure...

The single most important step on the Dzogchen path is definitively and decisively recognizing the mind's nature and clearly distinguishing that from the mind itself. If this is not accomplished with precision, all future practice will be compromised. It is therefore no surprise that the masters and lineage holders of the tradition do not leave such an important point to the beginner, and to chance, without direct guidance and confirmation. They consider the stakes to be very high - total liberation. It's not so much that the lama gives the student something they didn't already have, they simply point us in the right direction, giving us tools to help us come closer, correcting the trajectory when needed, so that we have a direct, precise, and decisive experience of the mind's nature. Once we have that, we can develop confidence in our realization and the method and build on that foundation independently. A small error in the early stages leads to progressive deviation from the proper view and path.

 

[rene]

10 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

Consider for example the book "Yogis of Ladakh" - as is noted - very few monks have the real Tummo abilities. And tummo is just the foundation of the real training! - and that book was from a while back. As Helena Norberg-Hodge notes - WEsternization has destroyed most of Ladakh very rapidly - aka "Little Tibet."

 

So maybe there is some tibetan monk somewhere with these abilities. I looked into joining a Tibetan monastery. But first of all you spend years just studying the material. My friend was financially supporting one monk - as he did his study work for years. Then he died suddenly - can't remember the cause - before he did any real meditation work. And now the monks all have cell phones, etc. with tons of Western distractions.

 

Like I said - this website is a great example. People on here claim celibacy is not necessary - and then post all sorts of low frequency cult type comments - and then readers are susceptible to such gaslighting manipulations. Then the moderators have no idea what's going on.

 

And you find the same problem even in Tibetan monasteries - or in say Bhutan or Thailand - lots of abusive scenarios.

But on the other hand - all I can say is "good luck."

I could give you positive information - but as I said - if I did - then a mob of people would clamor to pull me back down. haha.

 

 

Oh Drew - I doubt anyone would keep you down for very long.

 

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, steve said:

Sure...

The single most important step on the Dzogchen path is definitively and decisively recognizing the mind's nature and clearly distinguishing that from the mind itself. If this is not accomplished with precision, all future practice will be compromised. It is therefore no surprise that the masters and lineage holders of the tradition do not leave such an important point to the beginner, and to chance, without direct guidance and confirmation. They consider the stakes to be very high - total liberation. It's not so much that the lama gives the student something they didn't already have, they simply point us in the right direction, giving us tools to help us come closer, correcting the trajectory when needed, so that we have a direct, precise, and decisive experience of the mind's nature. Once we have that, we can develop confidence in our realization and the method and build on that foundation independently. A small error in the early stages leads to progressive deviation from the proper view and path.

 

 

I think this is an incredibly important point and very much worth repeating. But, I would say that one of the challenges of the approach is that the mind constantly wants to grab on to...”ahh, so that is what it is”. And then it all gets bound in the framework of mind again. 

[rene]

All fixed paths are bound in the mind's framework.

That's why so few escape it.

[falcon]

56 minutes ago, steve said:

The single most important step on the Dzogchen path is definitively and decisively recognizing the mind's nature and clearly distinguishing that from the mind itself. If this is not accomplished with precision, all future practice will be compromised. It is therefore no surprise that the masters and lineage holders of the tradition do not leave such an important point to the beginner, and to chance, without direct guidance and confirmation. They consider the stakes to be very high - total liberation. It's not so much that the lama gives the student something they didn't already have, they simply point us in the right direction, giving us tools to help us come closer, correcting the trajectory when needed, so that we have a direct, precise, and decisive experience of the mind's nature. Once we have that, we can develop confidence in our realization and the method and build on that foundation independently. A small error in the early stages leads to progressive deviation from the proper view and path.

 

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think this is an incredibly important point and very much worth repeating. But, I would say that one of the challenges of the approach is that the mind constantly wants to grab on to...”ahh, so that is what it is”. And then it all gets bound in the framework of mind again. 

 

22 minutes ago, rene said:

All fixed paths are bound in the mind's framework.

That's why so few escape it.

 

Your combined input.

 

Absolutely beautiful

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, steve said:

the mind's nature and clearly distinguishing that from the mind itself.

 

Hi steve,

 

Do you think the human mind is unique to human beings - just as a horse mind and a parrot mind are unique respectively to horses and parrots?

 

If so, let us refer to the human mind as Hmind.

 

You speak of "mind's nature" and "mind itself".

 

How are these two aspects linked to Hmind?

 

- LimA

 

[silent thunder]

15 hours ago, falcon said:

Silent Thunder thank you for taking the time to explain your recollections.

If you don't mind me asking what particular (meditative) practices do you commit to?

Hey falcon.  I'm grateful that my words had meaning for you... this place has enriched me so much over the years.  It's amazing, I'm so grateful for it.

 

 I studied Shao Lin Five Animal and Jeet Kun Do with Master Richard Huang and Larry Tan in NYC. 

Seven years ago, I met and learned Qi Gong (two forms) from Master Zhou Ting-Jue.

Two years ago I met and studied stillness with Master Wang Li Ping.

 

While I spent many years of dedicated daily practice of the hard forms and Qi Gong... I no longer have a rigid, or fixed practice regiment the way I used to.  The influence of the Qi Gong and Stillness particularly have opened up my inner world so it blends with the outer into a living process of constant release, non grasping and unfolding in presence and being.

 

I still play qi gong and sit in stillness spontaneously as the impulse arises, but I have found that the principles of both now manifest into my every waking movement and activity... at work, while hanging out at home... while making and eating my food, it all has become a cumulative process of unfolding and release into the pure being of what is in this moment now. 

 

Formal practice has unfolded and disassembled into awareness and presence... raw beingness as the principles of the practice have seamlessly imbedded themselves into unfolding awareness moment by moment and now steadily manifest a process of relentlessly stripping away previously held notions and illusory beliefs in favor of savoring presence in what simply is.

 

 

[Jeff]

My view is slightly different.  I think there are best (or most efficient) paths for people, but it is not simply "one size fits all". Everyone is starting at a different place (or level of clarity) and also various natural (and karmic) leanings that effect how well they will work with different approaches and techniques.  Some people are more mind based, others more heart.  Some have 6-10 threads running constantly in their mind, some have only one and it is pretty quiet.  Each of these variables can figure into what is the "best" for that specific person.

[Lost in Translation]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

My view is slightly different.  I think there are best (or most efficient) paths for people, but it is not simply "one size fits all". Everyone is starting at a different place (or level of clarity) and also various natural (and karmic) leanings that effect how well they will work with different approaches and techniques.  Some people are more mind based, others more heart.  Some have 6-10 threads running constantly in their mind, some have only one and it is pretty quiet.  Each of these variables can figure into what is the "best" for that specific person.

 

This is so good! 

 

It's like asking "what is the fastest way to get to New York City?" Well, that depends where you are now. It's so obviously true yet so easy to overlook!

[rideforever]

- Most seekers fail because they were never really seeking - they don't really fail.

 

- It is very helpful to read the life journeys of enlightened beings, and consider what choices they made, where and why.

 

- Developing your intelligence and stepping outside of the herd in daily life is very important.   Consider what this means.   One has to become interested in life.   Chopping carrots, do it left handed.

 

- Experience different teachers, recognize that most don't know much or anything.

 

- Seek a serious teacher, serious in his own personal practice.   Be a good student.   If no results come leave.

 

- When people say .... yes study for 20 years ... or don't ask questions.   It simply means that is the logic they are using .... as they have not got anywhere.

 

- Kindness, sincerity, compassion

 

- Keep your body in good shape, see life as an opportunity to continue growing body, emotions, intellect, spirit.

 

- There are short cuts, because most people are not going anywhere.  Normally they are attracted to mystery, exotic, poetic words, or alternatively they like to be in a crowd and get a hug.   Do you really seek ?   Would you really like to know truth for its own sake ?

- Yes enlightenment is very real, and simple, simple after a long difficult journey.

 

- If you don't understand the instructions clearly, then clarify with the teacher.   If you still don't understand leave.   Don't pretend to understand or you waste your time.   Often teachers cannot explain because they don't know and don't care to know.

 

- There are many teachers, and few students.

 

- The best teachers are students, advanced students busy with their own studies.

 

- Buy a square mirror about 50x50cm from Ikea, and put it on the floor by a wall.   Sit in front of it looking into your own eyes, for half an hour a day.

 

- Breathing, energy, body are objects.   Real teaching bridges you with the subject.

 

- Do not worry about your "ego", worry about your true self.

 

- Also remember "I have to do it", "I journey to myself".  If you have 5 minutes sit down and say the Lord's prayer slowly, reflecting on the real non bullshit meaning o each line.

 

- Every moment is an opportunity to be Real and live up to your possibilities, and not live like a worm.

 

- Instead of worrying about purification, worry about what you consume each day.   Body, mind, heart, spirit, all eat every day ... but what nastiness you put in there ?   And then there is a complaint that my mind is misbehaving.  Garbage in Garbage out.

 

- Don't talk behind people backs.

 

- Consider that there might be no method.   Sit down now, and hope-pray-open.

 

- Be worthy in all aspects of your life, begin this journey.

 

- Something called Enlightenment Intensive (Zen tradition) is very worthwhile.

 

- Every technique uses both masculine and feminine energy, masculine discipline gently holds the frame, feminine feels.  

 

- Become yourself is one half, let go of yourself is the other half.   First something has to be created, and then that something is surrendered.

 

- Only exceptional efforts count.   Well, can't do it every day, but we must get used to pushing far through our limits, one step at a time.   For instance Buddha sat for 35 days under the Bodhi Tree.   We are capable to do such things, as long as we are not defeated by our lack of hope.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by rideforever

[Limahong]

- Most seekers fail because they were never really seeking - they don't really fail.

They fail to seek.

 

- It is very helpful to read the life journeys of enlightened beings, and consider what choices they made, where and why.

Add in the 'how'.

 

- Developing your intelligence and stepping outside of the herd in daily life is very important.   Consider what this means.   One has to become interested in life.   Chopping carrots, do it left handed.

Try hands free.

 

- Experience different teachers, recognize that most don't know much or anything.

This is something new to me.

 

- Seek a serious teacher, serious in his own personal practice.   Be a good student.   If no results come leave.

Leave and let live.

 

- When people say .... yes study for 20 years ... or don't ask questions.   It simply means that is the logic they are using .... as they have not got anywhere.

And you ended up in the middle of nowhere.

 

- Kindness, sincerity, compassion

Love

 

- Keep your body in good shape, see life as an opportunity to continue growing body, emotions, intellect, spirit.

Hit the bottle.

 

- There are short cuts, because most people are not going anywhere.  Normally they are attracted to mystery, exotic, poetic words, or alternatively they like to be in a crowd and get a hug.   Do you really seek ?   Would you really like to know truth for its own sake ?

No to pain, yes to gain.

- Yes enlightenment is very real, and simple, simple after a long difficult journey.

Provided you don't get lost.

 

- If you don't understand the instructions clearly, then clarify with the teacher.   If you still don't understand leave.   Don't pretend to understand or you waste your time.   Often teachers cannot explain because they don't know and don't care to know.

Ignorance learning from arrogance.

 

- There are many teachers, and few students.

Too many parrots.

 

- The best teachers are students, advanced students busy with their own studies.

Lazy students fail.

 

- Buy a square mirror about 50x50cm from Ikea, and put it on the floor by a wall.   Sit in front of it looking into your own eyes, for half an hour a day.

And wait for ladies with skirts to walk by.

 

- Breathing, energy, body are objects.   Real teaching bridges you with the subject.

With parrots you reject.

 

- Do not worry about your "ego", worry about your true self.

 Ego with the flow.

 

- Also remember "I have to do it", "I journey to myself".  If you have 5 minutes sit down and say the Lord's prayer slowly, reflecting on the real non bullshit meaning of each line.

PyL and PmDa.

 

- Every moment is an opportunity to be Real and live up to your possibilities, and not live like a worm.

But keep warm.

 

- Instead of worrying about purification, worry about what you consume each day.   Body, mind, heart, spirit, all eat every day ... but what nastiness you put in there ?   And then there is a complaint that my mind is misbehaving.  Garbage in Garbage out.

Semen retention.

 

- Don't talk behind people backs.

Kick their faces.

 

- Consider that there might be no method.   Sit down now, and hope-pray-open.

And close to stand up.

 

- Be worthy in all aspects of your life, begin this journey.

Stop at worthy destinations.

 

- Something called Enlightenment Intensive (Zen tradition) is very worthwhile.

Especially in ICU.

 

- Every technique uses both masculine and feminine energy, masculine discipline gently holds the frame, feminine feels.  

What sweet surrender for Yinny to remember.

 

- Become yourself is one half, let go of yourself is the other half.   First something has to be created, and then that something is surrendered.

No pain no gain.

 

- Only exceptional efforts count.   Well, can't do it every day, but we must get used to pushing far through our limits, one step at a time.   For instance Buddha sat for 35 days under the Bodhi Tree.   We are capable to do such things, as long as we are not defeated by our lack of hope.

Semen retention for 100 days to activate the chakras - with whispered hope.

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Marblehead]

And don't forget to laugh and dance.

 

[steve]

7 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi steve,

 

Do you think the human mind is unique to human beings - just as a horse mind and a parrot mind are unique respectively to horses and parrots?

Yes

 

7 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

If so, let us refer to the human mind as Hmind.

 

You speak of "mind's nature" and "mind itself".

 

How are these two aspects linked to Hmind?

 

- LimA

Hmind equates to "mind itself" and the "mind's nature" is the nature or essence of the Hmind

 

[Starjumper]

The Perfect High

There once was a boy named Gimmesome Roy. He was nothing like me or you.
’Cause laying back and getting high was all he cared to do.
As a kid, he sat in the cellar, sniffing airplane glue.
And then he smoked bananas –– which was then the thing to do.
He tried aspirin in Coca–Cola, breathed helium on the sly,
And his life was just one endless search to find that perfect high.
But grass just made him want to lay back and eat chocolate–chip pizza all night,
And the great things he wrote while he was stoned looked like shit in the morning light.
And speed just made him rap all day, reds just laid him back,
And Cocaine Rose was sweet to his nose, but the price nearly broke his back.
He tried PCP and THC, but they didn’t quite do the trick,
And poppers nearly blew his heart and mushrooms made him sick.
Acid made him see the light, but he couldn’t remember it long.
And hashish was just a little too weak, and smack was a lot too strong,
And Quaaludes made him stumble, and booze just made him cry,
Till he heard of a cat named Baba Fats who knew of the perfect high.

Now, Baba Fats was a hermit cat who lived up in Nepal,
High on a craggy mountaintop, up a sheer and icy wall.
"But hell," says Roy, "I’m a healthy boy, and I’ll crawl or climb or fly,
But I’ll find that guru who’ll give me the clue as to what’s the perfect high."
So out and off goes Gimmesome Roy to the land that knows no time,
Up a trail no man could conquer to a cliff no man could climb.
For fourteen years he tries that cliff, then back down again he slides
Then sits –– and cries –– and climbs again, pursuing the perfect high.
He’s grinding his teeth, he’s coughing blood, he’s aching and shaking and weak,
As starving and sore and bleeding and tore, he reaches the mountain peak.
And his eyes blink red like a snow–blind wolf, and he snarls the snarl of a rat,
As there in perfect repose and wearing no clothes –– sits the godlike Baba Fats.

"What’s happening, Fats?" says Roy with joy, "I’ve come to state my biz.
I hear you’re hip to the perfect trip. Please tell me what it is.
For you can see," says Roy to he, "that I’m about to die,
So for my last ride, Fats, how can I achieve the perfect high?"
"Well, dog my cats!" says Baba Fats. "here’s one more burnt–out soul,
Who’s looking for some alchemist to turn his trip to gold.
But you won’t find it in no dealer’s stash, or on no druggist’s shelf.
Son, if you would seek the perfect high –– find it in yourself."

"Why, you jive motherfucker!" screamed Gimmesome Roy, "I’ve climbed through rain and sleet,
I’ve lost three fingers off my hands and four toes off my feet!
I’ve braved the lair of the polar bear and tasted the maggot’s kiss.
Now, you tell me the high is in myself. What kind of shit is this?
My ears ’fore they froze off," says Roy, "had heard all kind of crap,
But I didn’t climb for fourteen years to listen to that sophomore rap.
And I didn’t crawl up here to hear that the high is on the natch,
So you tell me where the real stuff is or I’ll kill your guru ass!"

"Ok, OK," says Baba Fats, "you’re forcing it out of me.
There is a land beyond the sun that’s known as Zaboli.
A wretched land of stone and sand where snakes and buzzards scream,
And in this devil’s garden blooms the mystic Tzu–Tzu tree.
And every ten years it blooms one flower as white as the Key West sky,
And he who eats of the Tzu–Tzu flower will know the perfect high.
For the rush comes on like a tidal wave and it hits like the blazing sun.
And the high, it lasts a lifetime and the down don’t ever come.
But the Zaboli land is ruled by a giant who stands twelve cubits high.
With eyes of red in his hundred heads, he waits for the passers–by.
And you must slay the red–eyed giant, and swim the River of Slime,
Where the mucous beasts, they wait to feast on those who journey by.
And if you survive the giant and the beasts and swim that slimy sea,
There’s a blood–drinking witch who sharpens her teeth as she guards that Tzu–Tzu tree."
"To hell with your witches and giants," laughs Roy. "To hell with the beasts of the sea.
As long as the Tzu–Tzu flower blooms, some hope still blooms for me."
And with tears of joy in his snow–blind eye, Roy hands the guru a five,
Then back down the icy mountain he crawls, pursuing that perfect high.

"Well, that is that," says Baba Fats, sitting back down on his stone,
Facing another thousand years of talking to God alone.
"It seems, Lord", says Fats, "it’s always the same, old men or bright–eyed youth,
It’s always easier to sell them some shit than it is to give them the truth."

 

         ~Shel Silverstein

[Gerard]

Putting aside the 'funny' title of this thread...let's get practical will ya!?

Here's some useful advice to the OP, who needs to get some grounding therapy ASAP.

 

A Taoist Priest Shares 9 Secrets Of Life

 

A golden rule to remember:

 

"The lower one goes, the higher one will reach."

 

It took me nearly a decade of Bagua practice (the last 3 spent as a full time practitioner as I'm a retired person) to realise the importance of this rule.

 

Root work until your feet start to 'bleed.'

 

Good luck!

 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

The fastest way to get anything is to know what you want. 

 

Define what enlightenment is and how that would change you. 

 

Enlightenment => end of suffering => stop desire??? 

 

Method = develop detachment in your mind (ponder about death and impermanence) and your life (get rid of stuff). 

 

Enlightenment => magical superpower => meditate 8 hrs per day, results not guaranteed 

 

 

Etc.... 

 

 

[Limahong]

On 8/1/2018 at 9:27 PM, rene said:

All fixed paths are bound in the mind's framework.

That's why so few escape it.

 

Hi rene,

 

I fix myself up and surrender my freedom in my mind?

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

On 8/1/2018 at 2:37 AM, falcon said:

the most straight forward path.

 

Travel light to see The Light.

[Limahong]

On 8/1/2018 at 9:19 PM, Jeff said:

grab

 

Don't grab.

It is a trap.

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Define what enlightenment

 

Don't define.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Don't grab.

It is a trap.

 

Is that not what I actually said in my post that you quoted one word from...

 

On 8/1/2018 at 8:19 AM, Jeff said:

 

I think this is an incredibly important point and very much worth repeating. But, I would say that one of the challenges of the approach is that the mind constantly wants to grab on to...”ahh, so that is what it is”. And then it all gets bound in the framework of mind again. 

 

[Limahong]

9 hours ago, Gerard said:

"The lower one goes, the higher one will reach."

 

No hi  ~ no lo.

The Way to go.

[Limahong]

22 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I'm grateful that my words had meaning for you...

 

Better still - no words.

[Lost in Translation]

15 minutes ago, Limahong said:

It is a trap.

 

Spoiler