The origin of mankind

[Marblehead]

Sex-breeding isnt all there is yknow, and life is certainly not a bed of roses all the time. Theres light and dark in everything , when did that rule vanish? On a daoist oriented site, seems to me the balance of nature really should be acknowleged and highlighted and even appreciated. Should the male or nonbreeding female be considered as pointless killing machines? I want that tiger eating deer. I watched a show which told a story about lions protecting crops. Win win.... Everything in nature has its purpose, its value, its spirit,,, except for bears.

 

Well, bears help keep the deer and seal populations in check.

 

Oh, the bed of roses is still here.  It's just that sometimes we get tangled up in the thorns.

 

Yes, balance, or, as I prefer, harmony.  There is harmony in nature most of the time.  Sure, the deer doesn't like being eaten.

 

The non-breeders are more than just killing machines.  They also help care for the young.  In a way they are parents too.

 

I think I watched that same program - about the Asiatic Lions in that one district in India.

[Old River]

FIRE ON THE HILLS

 

The deer were bounding like blown leaves
Under the smoke in front the roaring wave of the brush-fire;
I thought of the smaller lives that were caught.
Beauty is not always lovely; the fire was beautiful, the terror
Of the deer was beautiful; and when I returned
Down the back slopes after the fire had gone by, an eagle
Was perched on the jag of a burnt pine,
Insolent and gorged, cloaked in the folded storms of his shoulders
He had come from far off for the good hunting
With fire for his beater to drive the game; the sky was merciless
Blue, and the hills merciless black,
The sombre-feathered great bird sleepily merciless between them.
I thought, painfully, but the whole mind,
The destruction that brings an eagle from heaven is better than men.

 

~ Robinson Jeffers

[blue eyed snake]

FIRE ON THE HILLS

 

The deer were bounding like blown leaves

Under the smoke in front the roaring wave of the brush-fire;

I thought of the smaller lives that were caught.

Beauty is not always lovely; the fire was beautiful, the terror

Of the deer was beautiful; and when I returned

Down the back slopes after the fire had gone by, an eagle

Was perched on the jag of a burnt pine,

Insolent and gorged, cloaked in the folded storms of his shoulders

He had come from far off for the good hunting

With fire for his beater to drive the game; the sky was merciless

Blue, and the hills merciless black,

The sombre-feathered great bird sleepily merciless between them.

I thought, painfully, but the whole mind,

The destruction that brings an eagle from heaven is better than men.

 

~ Robinson Jeffers

 

this is beautiful, you're opening up a whole new vista for me,

I wanna read more of this!

 

BES

[Old River]

Glad you like it, Blue Eyed Snake!  Robinson Jeffers is one of my favorite poets.  I like him for his uncompromising, non-anthropocentric vision that runs throughout his work.  He's still overlooked and underrated (and still somewhat controversial) figure in literary circles today. 

 

You might be able to find an anthology of his shorter poems, called Hawk and Rock, edited by Robert Hass.  A few other anthologies of his shorter works are out there too. 

[Marblehead]

this is beautiful, you're opening up a whole new vista for me,

I wanna read more of this!

 

BES

I wanted to say something but just couldn't find the words.  Creation and destruction; destruction and creation.  Like it or not those are nature's cycles.

[Stosh]

Well, bears help keep the deer and seal populations in check.

 

Oh, the bed of roses is still here.  It's just that sometimes we get tangled up in the thorns.

 

Yes, balance, or, as I prefer, harmony.  There is harmony in nature most of the time.  Sure, the deer doesn't like being eaten.

 

The non-breeders are more than just killing machines.  They also help care for the young.  In a way they are parents too.

 

I think I watched that same program - about the Asiatic Lions in that one district in India.

I see you're still stuck on the idea that procreation is the point of living , but frankly the great majority of multicellular things do not end up having progeny , and over time even most successful lines die out, all the dinosaurs are gone except for the grandsire of what became birds , someday the birds will be gone too.  The purpose of a sentient being is not to die for the benefit of one potential successful ancestor , but to live their own life.The  Procreation which brought US into being is the a means to do that.

( ok ,, I guess the bears have a purpose too)  

[Marblehead]

Oh, I'm not stuck.  It's just that when I am in a comfortable place I generally stay for a while.

 

Yes, species come and go.  And as to our life, sure, all we can do is live it as best we can.

 

And the tiger will chase the deer and the deer will run away if it can.

 

And mankind is doing what it does.  Sadly, one of those things is over-populating the planet with humans and sub-humans.

 

But still, the nature of living things is to propagate.  It's a built-in instinct.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Oh, I'm not stuck.  It's just that when I am in a comfortable place I generally stay for a while.

 

Yes, species come and go.  And as to our life, sure, all we can do is live it as best we can.

 

And the tiger will chase the deer and the deer will run away if it can.

 

And mankind is doing what it does.  Sadly, one of those things is over-populating the planet with humans and sub-humans.

 

But still, the nature of living things is to propagate.  It's a built-in instinct.

The mindset that procreation is important , THE important achievement of a human life, leads to the overpopulation problem you mention. The cure is to limit procreation of humans in some way , but some would feel that less humans is less good , more humans living -is more good. Saving the life of all humans , preventing all disease and wars preserving human life at every turn,, is a pretty standard moral "good' ... which leaves only the mindset that individuals must have purpose in and unto themselves and to those who already exist and maybe, at times, to preserve lineage. As far as built in instinct , what does that apply to gay people and other people who just don't care to make more children? I say its not an instinct , we don't really have those, our internal motivational constructs are incomplete.  

Yes the deer attempts to elude, that's its life .. the tiger and the deer preserve each other-yin and yang. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

The purpose of a sentient being is not to die for the benefit of one potential successful ancestor , but to live their own life.

You did well here.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

but some would feel that less humans is less good , more humans living -is more good. Saving the life of all humans , preventing all disease and wars preserving human life at every turn,, is a pretty standard moral "good' ... which leaves only the mindset that individuals must have purpose in and unto themselves

 

And good again. :-)

 

[blue eyed snake]

Glad you like it, Blue Eyed Snake!  Robinson Jeffers is one of my favorite poets.  I like him for his uncompromising, non-anthropocentric vision that runs throughout his work.  He's still overlooked and underrated (and still somewhat controversial) figure in literary circles today. 

 

You might be able to find an anthology of his shorter poems, called Hawk and Rock, edited by Robert Hass.  A few other anthologies of his shorter works are out there too. 

 

it's like, life is beauty and ugly, nice and bad, pain and enjoyment, Yin and yang. And it ain't easy to see the beauty of the ' bad' the painful side. I've been through a lot of pain lately and this poem gives me the feel how to accept, to deal with it. not cognition but some feeling of the beauty/worthiness of pain.

 

cannot find the words for it, but he could!

 

BES

 

I'll look if I can find work of him

[Marblehead]

As far as built in instinct , what does that apply to gay people and other people who just don't care to make more children? I say its not an instinct , we don't really have those, our internal motivational constructs are incomplete.  

Yeah, that was a generalization but I will still stand by it.  There are always exceptions.

[Stosh]

. doesnt matter nevermind.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Okay.

[Junko]

I am a strong believer that you really make your own reality.This is the one of reasons I started this thread.

I know there are so many people they can't help themself to blame on one's life but that way of attitude we can't get very far.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Junko

[Marblehead]

I am a strong believer that you really make your own reality.This is the one of reasons I started this thread.

I know there are so many people they can't help themself to blame on one's life but that way of attitude we can't get very far.

I agree with you with limitations.  Yes, I am a free will-er.  That means we can do things to improve our life and how we relate with reality.  But there are many aspects of our life that we have no control of.  This is where we need decide how we are going to allow those things to effect us.

[cold]

if you don't mind it

it don't matter

mind over matter

it's a choice

[Junko]

The origin of mind.

[Marblehead]

The origin of mind.

For some, I swear, it is up their butt.

[Karl]

For some, I swear, it is up their butt.

 

Along with their thumbs.

[Brian]

For some, I swear, it is up their butt.

Hey!

 

No peeking.

[Junko]

Start making fun of my thread.What can I say,human's quality today really going something wrong.Maybe it's a sign of our soul is getting tired.Of course if there is a someone who knows the answer to questions like my thread,we will be in a different world.Or a person will get'Nobel prize'.

[Marblehead]

Okay.  She wants me to be serious.  Here goes.

 

Nearly all animal life has a brain.  For all this is where the instinctual functions reside.  So I think it would be fair to state that the brain evolved along with the multi-celled animals.

 

Mind is an abstract concept.  We can't really put our finger on "mind" like we can with "brain".

 

So perhaps it would be fair to state that mind is an aspect of brain.

 

Perhaps a question to ask is "How developed must a brain be in order for it to produce a mind?"

 

Must there be self-awareness before there is mind?  I think this might have something to do with it.

 

But then, opposing my above considerations, I will say that there is no such thing as a mind.  The brain and how well it functions is the only consideration.

[Nungali]

Start making fun of my thread.What can I say,human's quality today really going something wrong.Maybe it's a sign of our soul is getting tired.Of course if there is a someone who knows the answer to questions like my thread,we will be in a different world.Or a person will get'Nobel prize'.

 

Ohhh .... I  know  the answers Junko .... its just that no one believes me !  

 

Something is really wrong with humans quality today .    There has always been 'something wrong' with us ... but we got by.  But now the world is different , and in this different world,  'what  is wrong with us'  is amplified. So now the inherent problem is worse.

 

What compounds this is an erosion from the other end of the scale ;   our 'natural intelligence'  ( the thing that did enable us to 'get by' , even with our problems ) is eroding .   I read that this was starting to happen and would increase as we progressed through modern civilisation ( from Steiner .... so it was observed some time back  - I tag it at the beginning of the Industrial revolution )  and since then I have observed this myself - the lack of it and the  increasing rate of it disappearing . 

 

Combine those two things  ... and we are deep in do-do  ( while remaining proud of our 'specialities' )

 

here ya go folks ..... our future awaits us ;

 

 

[Nungali]

Okay.  She wants me to be serious.  Here goes.

 

Nearly all animal life has a brain.  For all this is where the instinctual functions reside.  So I think it would be fair to state that the brain evolved along with the multi-celled animals.

 

Mind is an abstract concept.  We can't really put our finger on "mind" like we can with "brain".

 

So perhaps it would be fair to state that mind is an aspect of brain.

 

Perhaps a question to ask is "How developed must a brain be in order for it to produce a mind?"

 

Must there be self-awareness before there is mind?  I think this might have something to do with it.

 

But then, opposing my above considerations, I will say that there is no such thing as a mind.  The brain and how well it functions is the only consideration.

 

 

... but that 'well functioning' may be how the mind develops.  Its all about relationships between  components .  

 

Consider a termite mound ... each termite ( or type of termite)  is like a brain function , some mate and reproduce, some build  repair, some hunt and gather, some are guards and soldiers, etc .  Each lives in its own world only doing its one set of tasks, this is like a brain - each one knows what to do and how to do it, and not the other jobs.  So the physical termite mound is like the brain, we can see it, dissect it, understand its components and how they work together.

 

But what, in the hive, controls all that and regulates it ?  We cant 'see' that .... as far as we know there is no Termite constitution and  operational directives (well, there must be, but where it is it ? )   I would say then , that this operating principle that holds things all together on a somewhat unseen level, in the hive ... the thing that developed, that made it a hive, is like the human mind -  it is developed from ( or things are developed from it )  an interrelationship and interaction of its functioning. 

 

Mind -  ' hive behaviour' of the brain .