Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[steve]

I always felt that compassion as taught was used to open the heart chakra.

 

The heart chakra being the chakra that is needed to perceive/feel energy.

The heart chakra is associated with that particular flavor of energy.

Other chakras are associated with other types of energy and all should be opened.

 

For those who ardently devote themselves to the authentic path, the clearance of chakras are seen as secondary in the sense that they will clear effortlessly. 

Also worth mentioning that, at least among the Bönpos, quite a bit of active work goes into opening the chakras and channels through breathing exercises, tsa lung, trul khor, and the like. Effort is generally required for quite a while before effortlessness stabilizes... at least for me. It's hard to remain effortless!

Edited January 5, 2016 by steve

[9th]

If compassion arises from the natural state then why would you not be compassionate?

 

Perhaps because he is full of shit?  It seems quite likely given the exchanges in this thread - however, it may require further research to confirm this.  I suggest a formal debate, with an appointed mediator.  Bright and shiny ribbons of glory shall be awarded to the victor.

[Apech]

Perhaps because he is full of shit?  It seems quite likely given the exchanges in this thread - however, it may require further research to confirm this.  I suggest a formal debate, with an appointed mediator.  Bright and shiny ribbons of glory shall be awarded to the victor.

 

 

I hope they won't be as shiny as that bloody GIF in your signature.

[silent thunder]

At last!  A thread with a winner.

[C T]

Also worth mentioning that, at least among the Bönpos, quite a bit of active work goes into opening the chakras and channels through breathing exercises, tsa lung, trul khor, and the like. Effort is generally required for quite a while before effortlessness stabilizes... at least for me. It's hard to remain effortless!

The effortlessness comes from the well-spring of the Four Immeasurables through authentic practice so the focus is not to clear chakras and feel energy (what is this anyway and when was this ever the primary goal of authentic practice?) but to keep sight of the other shore while putting in the work. 

 

A farmer who strives tirelessly towards a bountiful harvest has no thought of hard work when the harvest is reaped. Therefore, his sight is set on the harvest, and not on the hours, days and months of toiling. He does not see it as a tiresome and tedious process, just something that adds up eventually to a result. In this sense, its actually effortless because the fruit becomes evident and he knows it. It only seems like lots of effort is needed when there is uncertainty and a lack of confidence in what one is actually aiming for. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

Here's rare time when I'm going to disagree with you, my friend.

 

The effortlessness comes from the well-spring of the Four Immeasurables through authentic practice so the focus is not to clear chakras and feel energy (what is this anyway and when was this ever the primary goal of authentic practice?) but to keep sight of the other shore while putting in the work. 

That seems like a very sutric perspective. 

The Bönpo dzogchenpas put in quite a bit of time doing energy work, always have.

I can't speak to the Nyingmapas but I think it's a bit part of their work as well. 

And it's not a good idea to keep sight on the other shore while putting in this kind of work.

The work is done fully engaged and connected, ultimately while resting fully in the natural state.

No distraction, especially not goals.

 

A farmer who strives tirelessly towards a bountiful harvest has no thought of hard work when the harvest is reaped. Therefore, his sight is set on the harvest, and not on the hours, days and months of toiling. He does not see it as a tiresome and tedious process, just something that adds up eventually to a result. In this sense, its actually effortless because the fruit becomes evident and he knows it. It only seems like lots of effort is needed when there is uncertainty and a lack of confidence in what one is actually aiming for. 

The process does not need to be tiresome and tedious, although I'll freely admit it is from time to time for me.

We fully engage it and, in doing so, develop a deep connection to the process in and of itself.

It is more than a result, it is all there is in this very moment - the process. 

 

My ultimate point is to say that early along on the path, we do need to exert effort.

Over time, we can lessen the effort by letting go.

At some point we don't even need to let go, that would be too effortful.

Then it does itself.

Hard to be there all the time, at least for me. 

I still do stuff.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Leave off the personal attacks - we're discussing Dzogchen.

[Apech]

The compassion that arises out of the Natural State is of course not an emotion.

Emotions including compassion are manifestations of the karmic mind.

The compassion arising in the Natural State is an inner understanding developed out of spiritual insight.

 

 

Nice lecture.  That's what compassion is ... understanding.  Compassion is not an emotion agreed.  But the question remains the same.

[Tibetan_Ice]

This is my current understanding from experience and reading...

 

In the heart lies a large pool of rigpa.

 

This rigpa is clear, luminescent (it shines), very blissful and it "knows" AKA as clarity. It is found in smaller quantities throughout the body and in conventional mind. It is what "knows" the content of thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations, perceptions...

 

There is more rigpa in the central channel than the rest of the body, and the main pool is in the heart.

 

There is the Kati channel from the heart to the eyes, which bypasses the central channel. This channel can be opened by gazing, and more effectively by gazing with love.

 

The preliminary practices are performed to develop certain skills because without these skills you will not be able to sustain the rigpa (natural state), nor will you be able to recognize it because your untrained mind will jump about from thought to image to sensation to next thought etc..

 

Rigpa is a bright clear space in which thoughts, visions, sensations, forms appear. When these components appear within the space of rigpa, they are very bright, clear and easily detectable. Not only do thoughts have content (topic or subject) but thoughts look like strings of rainbow light. Anything can manifest from rigpa, including whole scenes which are indistinguishable from normal reality.

 

To be able to recognize rigpa, you have to have the ability to visualize, the ability to hold attention still on what is being visualized and at the same time recognize the space that exists surrounding the visualized object and the part of the mind that is doing the visualization.

 

At first, it is very hard to visualize, let alone keep your mind still enough to realize that there is a clear luminous space surrounding the visualization.

 

When you visualize, you are drawing from the pool of rigpa in the heart. Anything that you "know" is drawing from that pool.

 

The purpose of the preliminary practices such as guru yoga and/or visualizing the white A is to develop and train the mental faculties of visualization and to learn how to hold the mind steady. The "dissolving of the guru" into your being is to train you to dissolve into the central channel. The practice of guru yoga is also used to tap into that pool of rigpa in your heart with love.

 

Working with the mind is easier and more profitable when you can tap into the large pool of rigpa in the heart. You can do this a number of ways.

1) generate love, compassion, feelings of gratitude and thankfulness before meditating

2) pick a subject of meditation that you truly love (like a visualization of your dog, your favorite plant, a loved one, your guru etc

3) practice loving what you choose as your object of meditation (like loving the breath or the sensation of the breath at the nostrils or between the eyebrows.)... Don't worry, just because I mention breath doesn't mean I'm going all Theravada on you..

 

The main idea is that you train in relative bodhichitta, then as you progress, you tap into the large pool of rigpa which is bodhichitta at the heart.

 

Don't believe me? Try this. Sit in a meditative posture and visualize the letters OM. Do that for 5 minutes. Notice how clear the letters are, the position of the visualized letters relative to your skull and how easy it is to maintain.

Next, stop, take a few minutes and start over. This time, spend 5 minutes thinking of people, places, pets or things that you love. Do so until you have goosebumps and the hairs on your arms are standing to attention. Now try the exercise again. Notice any difference?

 

Tapping into the rigpa in your heart is like fueling your meditation with octane.

 

So how does this relate to Dzogchen?

 

The most common instruction for how to recognize the natural state (rigpa) is to look directly at a thought without grasping at the content of the thought, wait until it dissolves and then remain at that same mental position and relax there. When another thought comes up, repeat the process. Eventually, you learn how to remain in that space and you watch the thoughts come, display and dissolve away...

 

This instruction is kind of deceiving. It has a hidden purpose. The instruction to look directly at the thought places you at the upper section of the central channel, where there is a little more rigpa. Remember, there is more rigpa in the central channel so if you can remain the central channel, you have more access to rigpa. Then, by fixating on the thought without grasping and waiting until it dissolves, you are now strategically placed in a position to view the little space in the center of your head which is like a little pool of rigpa. It may take you many tries to view or occupy this space. It may take you months or years, but one thing is for sure, if you can generate enough bodhichitta before you do the practice, it will speed things up.

 

After many months of practice you will find that following phenomenon occur:

 

The thoughts, visions, lights, internal mental phenomenon are very clear and bright, like looking at an ultra high def 3D screen. You will see wisps of colors almost like colored winds blowing around. The surrounding space is very clear, luminescent and pristine. The surrounding space grows bigger. It will envelope your whole head area and progress downwards into the neck. It becomes easier to remain detached in that space, not grasping at content but enjoying the effortless-ness of it all.

 

This rigpa can also follow the Kati channel from the heart up to and out of the eyes.

My first experience of that was when I was spending time meditating and training with love in the forest. I would sit on a bench, close my eyes and pretend to send love from my third eye to the tree directly in front of me. By using love as the fuel, I managed to activate distance viewing, and even saw a fox hiding behind me.. However, I would sit and send love to the tree from between my brows. Then, one day as I was walking back to my car, being spring time, I stopped to admire a newly forming leaf on a birch tree. I just loved it! All of a sudden a stream of liquid light came out of my eyes in slow motion, from my eyes to the brand new leaf. It was like someone had turned on a fire hydrant. Inside the liquid light, it was much brighter than the surrounding sky. The leaf appeared in exquisite detail and I was overcome with bliss..

 

So, if you ask me, trecho is about learning to remain in rigpa, learning how to expand the space while maintaining the clarity/knowing through tapping into the large pool of rigpa at the heart. Thogal is learning how to to take an alternate path (Kati channel) and harness that blissful clear water-like light (pure rigpa) to prove to yourself that you are creating your reality and many others from this wonder substance. The key is to activate the heart and train the mind.

 

[steve]

I think it is important to acknowledge the fact that rigpa is not a substance, cannot be localized, and cannot be contained.

It is the inseparability of space and clarity which knows itself.

The most accurate translation of the word rigpa is knowing and it relates to a very specific knowledge.

 

Trekchöd is recognition and stability of the natural state.

Tögel is using vision and appearances to exercise that recognition and stability.

Without confidence and stability in the natural state there is no tögel, only visions - anyone can have visions under the correct circumstances. 

[already]

This is my current understanding from experience and reading...

 

In the heart lies a large pool of rigpa.

 

This rigpa is clear, luminescent (it shines), very blissful and it "knows" AKA as clarity. It is found in smaller quantities throughout the body and in conventional mind. It is what "knows" the content of thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations, perceptions...

 

There is more rigpa in the central channel than the rest of the body, and the main pool is in the heart.

 

There is the Kati channel from the heart to the eyes, which bypasses the central channel. This channel can be opened by gazing, and more effectively by gazing with love.

 

The preliminary practices are performed to develop certain skills because without these skills you will not be able to sustain the rigpa (natural state), nor will you be able to recognize it because your untrained mind will jump about from thought to image to sensation to next thought etc..

 

Rigpa is a bright clear space in which thoughts, visions, sensations, forms appear. When these components appear within the space of rigpa, they are very bright, clear and easily detectable. Not only do thoughts have content (topic or subject) but thoughts look like strings of rainbow light. Anything can manifest from rigpa, including whole scenes which are indistinguishable from normal reality.

 

To be able to recognize rigpa, you have to have the ability to visualize, the ability to hold attention still on what is being visualized and at the same time recognize the space that exists surrounding the visualized object and the part of the mind that is doing the visualization.

 

At first, it is very hard to visualize, let alone keep your mind still enough to realize that there is a clear luminous space surrounding the visualization.

 

When you visualize, you are drawing from the pool of rigpa in the heart. Anything that you "know" is drawing from that pool.

 

The purpose of the preliminary practices such as guru yoga and/or visualizing the white A is to develop and train the mental faculties of visualization and to learn how to hold the mind steady. The "dissolving of the guru" into your being is to train you to dissolve into the central channel. The practice of guru yoga is also used to tap into that pool of rigpa in your heart with love.

 

Working with the mind is easier and more profitable when you can tap into the large pool of rigpa in the heart. You can do this a number of ways.

1) generate love, compassion, feelings of gratitude and thankfulness before meditating

2) pick a subject of meditation that you truly love (like a visualization of your dog, your favorite plant, a loved one, your guru etc

3) practice loving what you choose as your object of meditation (like loving the breath or the sensation of the breath at the nostrils or between the eyebrows.)... Don't worry, just because I mention breath doesn't mean I'm going all Theravada on you..

 

The main idea is that you train in relative bodhichitta, then as you progress, you tap into the large pool of rigpa which is bodhichitta at the heart.

 

Don't believe me? Try this. Sit in a meditative posture and visualize the letters OM. Do that for 5 minutes. Notice how clear the letters are, the position of the visualized letters relative to your skull and how easy it is to maintain.

Next, stop, take a few minutes and start over. This time, spend 5 minutes thinking of people, places, pets or things that you love. Do so until you have goosebumps and the hairs on your arms are standing to attention. Now try the exercise again. Notice any difference?

 

Tapping into the rigpa in your heart is like fueling your meditation with octane.

 

So how does this relate to Dzogchen?

 

The most common instruction for how to recognize the natural state (rigpa) is to look directly at a thought without grasping at the content of the thought, wait until it dissolves and then remain at that same mental position and relax there. When another thought comes up, repeat the process. Eventually, you learn how to remain in that space and you watch the thoughts come, display and dissolve away...

 

This instruction is kind of deceiving. It has a hidden purpose. The instruction to look directly at the thought places you at the upper section of the central channel, where there is a little more rigpa. Remember, there is more rigpa in the central channel so if you can remain the central channel, you have more access to rigpa. Then, by fixating on the thought without grasping and waiting until it dissolves, you are now strategically placed in a position to view the little space in the center of your head which is like a little pool of rigpa. It may take you many tries to view or occupy this space. It may take you months or years, but one thing is for sure, if you can generate enough bodhichitta before you do the practice, it will speed things up.

 

After many months of practice you will find that following phenomenon occur:

 

The thoughts, visions, lights, internal mental phenomenon are very clear and bright, like looking at an ultra high def 3D screen. You will see wisps of colors almost like colored winds blowing around. The surrounding space is very clear, luminescent and pristine. The surrounding space grows bigger. It will envelope your whole head area and progress downwards into the neck. It becomes easier to remain detached in that space, not grasping at content but enjoying the effortless-ness of it all.

 

This rigpa can also follow the Kati channel from the heart up to and out of the eyes.

My first experience of that was when I was spending time meditating and training with love in the forest. I would sit on a bench, close my eyes and pretend to send love from my third eye to the tree directly in front of me. By using love as the fuel, I managed to activate distance viewing, and even saw a fox hiding behind me.. However, I would sit and send love to the tree from between my brows. Then, one day as I was walking back to my car, being spring time, I stopped to admire a newly forming leaf on a birch tree. I just loved it! All of a sudden a stream of liquid light came out of my eyes in slow motion, from my eyes to the brand new leaf. It was like someone had turned on a fire hydrant. Inside the liquid light, it was much brighter than the surrounding sky. The leaf appeared in exquisite detail and I was overcome with bliss..

 

So, if you ask me, trecho is about learning to remain in rigpa, learning how to expand the space while maintaining the clarity/knowing through tapping into the large pool of rigpa at the heart. Thogal is learning how to to take an alternate path (Kati channel) and harness that blissful clear water-like light (pure rigpa) to prove to yourself that you are creating your reality and many others from this wonder substance. The key is to activate the heart and train the mind.

 

this is seriously mistaken and misleading.

no dzogchen teachings speak about rigpa in those terms

[Apech]

Rigpa is the Tibetan equivalent to Vidhya which means knowledge as the opposite of avidhya = ignorance  (the first of the twelve steps of dependent origination) - so it cutting the root of samsara

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ilumairen]

 I suggest a formal debate, with an appointed mediator.  Bright and shiny ribbons of glory shall be awarded to the victor.

 

I suspect that those who would want the 'ribbons of glory' wouldn't win, and those who could win have no desire to fight or for such useless accolades.

[already]

Tibetan_Ice speaks about his authentic experience.

 

I dont deny that they are his experiences.But they are not rigpa.

 

 

You speak about your possibly wrong understanding of the claims in books.

 

How could you possibly know what my understanding of rigpa is when i haven't said a word yet.

you just look silly proclaiming that you already know what my understanding is.

[ralis]

I dont deny that they are his experiences.But they are not rigpa.

 

Please explain why his experiences are not rigpa?

[Brian]

“Rigpa is a Tibetan word, which in general means ‘intelligence’ or ‘awareness’. In Dzogchen, however, the highest teachings in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet, rigpa has a deeper connotation, ‘the innermost nature of the mind’. The whole of the teaching of Buddha is directed towards realizing this, our ultimate nature, the state of omniscience or enlightenment – a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself."

 

Sogyal Rinpoche

 

Please explain how "a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits" could be contained in a large pool in someone's heart.

[Apech]

“Rigpa is a Tibetan word, which in general means ‘intelligence’ or ‘awareness’. In Dzogchen, however, the highest teachings in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet, rigpa has a deeper connotation, ‘the innermost nature of the mind’. The whole of the teaching of Buddha is directed towards realizing this, our ultimate nature, the state of omniscience or enlightenment – a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself."

 

Sogyal Rinpoche

 

Please explain how "a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits" could be contained in a large pool in someone's heart.

 

 

He has a very large heart.

[ralis]

“Rigpa is a Tibetan word, which in general means ‘intelligence’ or ‘awareness’. In Dzogchen, however, the highest teachings in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet, rigpa has a deeper connotation, ‘the innermost nature of the mind’. The whole of the teaching of Buddha is directed towards realizing this, our ultimate nature, the state of omniscience or enlightenment – a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself."

 

Sogyal Rinpoche

 

Please explain how "a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits" could be contained in a large pool in someone's heart.

 

I was challenging 'already' to come forth with his own experience as opposed to pointing out how wrong he thinks Tibetan Ice is. Most treat rigpa as a thing with a specific location. The heart and central channel are merely gateways to the vast universal space. 'Space' being the operative word here.

[Brian]

 

I was challenging 'already' to come forth with his own experience as opposed to pointing out how wrong he thinks Tibetan Ice is. Most treat rigpa as a thing with a specific location. The heart and central channel are merely gateways to the vast universal space. 'Space' being the operative word here.

Is it your personal experience that the natural state of mind is a thing with a specific location? Or are you saying that it is your personal experience that rigpa is a vast universal space which is also a thing with a specific location rather than rigpa as a term for the natural state of mind?

[ralis]

Is it your personal experience that the natural state of mind is a thing with a specific location? Or are you saying that it is your personal experience that rigpa is a vast universal space which is also a thing with a specific location rather than rigpa as a term for the natural state of mind?

 

It is not a thing or object with a specific location. Any so called experience of rigpa is useless without realizing space which is not an object or location. The experience is non verbal.

 

The natural relaxed state is one of relaxing into space. That is not to say that I am objectifying space. The Longde series as taught by Norbu makes this very clear. It is far too easy to make this an anthropocentric experience which is an error in judgement.

Edited January 5, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells