Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Jonesboy]

Edited January 2, 2016 by Jonesboy

[ralis]

Found this description in The Twenty-one Little Nails, the root text from the Zhang-Zhung Nya-Gyud, pointing to the difference between Rigpa and the "nature of mind", rather than "noticing mind"...

 

 

 

As for recognizing the Nature of Mind as distinct from mind, (there are four considerations regarding the Nature of Mind:)

 

 

 

1) it is without thoughts,

 

2) it becomes the basis of everything,

 

3) it is a neutral state (displaying neither virtue nor vice), and

 

4) everything possible originates from it and this is unceasing.

 

 

Seems to fit everything I have been saying.

 

Have a good day

 

Mind and nature of mind are not separate. Norbu makes that extremely clear! Your narrative is a contradiction in terms. Point # 2 which states nature of mind is the basis of phenomena or as I stated, mind or thought.

Edited January 2, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

So many systems to dispute but our lives are short.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

Edited January 2, 2016 by Jonesboy

[ralis]

The person here in the USA that started all this confusion among many seekers, is Gangaji. She went to India and supposedly became enlightened at the feet of Papaji. She and here lineage of teachers have caused more damage to persons in my town than anyone. She has made a fortune from errors and offering instant enlightenment.

 

 

https://www.gangaji.org/

[ralis]

I am quoting you Dzogchen teaching

 

Here are some more for you.

 

Rigpa and Mind

 

 

In Dzogchen, a fundamental point of practice is to distinguish rigpa from sems (citta, (grasping) mind).[8] According to the 14th Dalai Lama, "sems is the mind which is temporarily obscured and distorted by thoughts based upon the dualistic perceptions of subject and object."[9] Rigpa is pure awareness free from such distortions.[9] Cittata, the nature of mind, is the inseparable unity of awareness and emptiness, or clarity and emptiness, which is the basis for all the ordinary perceptions, thoughts and emotions of the ordinary mind.[web 1]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa

 

 

Homage to the Guru, the teacher.

 

The View and Meditation of Dzogchen can be explained in many, many ways, but simply sustaining the essence of present awareness includes them all.

Your mind won’t be found elsewhere.

It is the very nature of this moment-to-moment thinking.

Regard nakedly the essence of this thinking and you find present awareness, right where you are.

 

[/b]Why chase after thoughts, which are superficial ripples of present awareness?

Rather look directly into the naked, empty nature of thoughts; then there is no duality, no observer, and nothing observed.

Simply rest in this transparent, nondual present awareness.

Make yourself at home in the natural state of pure presence, just being, not doing anything in particular.

Present awareness is empty, open, and luminous; not a concrete substance, yet not nothing.

Empty, yet it is perfectly cognizant, lucid, aware.

As if magically, not by causing it to be aware, but innately aware, awareness continuously functions.

These two sides of present awareness or Rigpa — its emptiness and its cognizance (lucidity) — are inseparable.

Emptiness and luminosity (knowing) are inseparable.

They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet spacious, vivid, buoyant.

Nothing whatsoever, yet Emaho!, everything is magically experienced.

Simply recognize this.

Look into the magical mirror of mind and appreciate this infinite magical display.

With constant, vigilant mindfulness, sustain this recognition of empty, open, brilliant awareness.

Cultivate nothing else.

There is nothing else to do, or to undo.

Let it remain naturally.

Don’t spoil it by manipulating, by controlling, by tampering with it, and worrying about whether you are right or wrong, or having a good meditation or a bad meditation.

Leave it as it is, and rest your weary heart and mind.

....

 

Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé (1813–1899), the first Jamgon Rinpoche, was a founder of the Rimé movement of Tibetan Buddhism and author of more than one hundred books.

 

http://freddieyam.com/gen2/p/jamgon-kongtrul.html

 

You can quote all you care to, but I will continue to point out your errors. Why not put all in proper context as opposed to cherry picking. I have been on retreats with Norbu and know exactly what he has taught. The flaw still resides in your point # 2 that you have not thought out. Point # 2 states "everything".

[Jonesboy]

You lost me. Point two about psychology?

 

Please show me were I am cherry picking? I believe I have shared reference after reference validating what I have said.

 

Do you have any Norbu quotes you would like to share that contradicts what I have been saying?

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

Yes I understand that.

 

First everyone thinks they are the waves but in truth we are the ocean.

 

One does not observe oneself as the ocean, they are the ocean.

[ralis]

I am quoting you Dzogchen teaching

 

Here are some more for you.

 

Rigpa and Mind

 

 

In Dzogchen, a fundamental point of practice is to distinguish rigpa from sems (citta, (grasping) mind).[8] According to the 14th Dalai Lama, "sems is the mind which is temporarily obscured and distorted by thoughts based upon the dualistic perceptions of subject and object."[9] Rigpa is pure awareness free from such distortions.[9] Cittata, the nature of mind, is the inseparable unity of awareness and emptiness, or clarity and emptiness, which is the basis for all the ordinary perceptions, thoughts and emotions of the ordinary mind.[web 1]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa

 

 

Homage to the Guru, the teacher.

 

The View and Meditation of Dzogchen can be explained in many, many ways, but simply sustaining the essence of present awareness includes them all.

Your mind won’t be found elsewhere.

It is the very nature of this moment-to-moment thinking.

Regard nakedly the essence of this thinking and you find present awareness, right where you are.

 

[/b]Why chase after thoughts, which are superficial ripples of present awareness?

Rather look directly into the naked, empty nature of thoughts; then there is no duality, no observer, and nothing observed.

Simply rest in this transparent, nondual present awareness.

Make yourself at home in the natural state of pure presence, just being, not doing anything in particular.

Present awareness is empty, open, and luminous; not a concrete substance, yet not nothing.

Empty, yet it is perfectly cognizant, lucid, aware.

As if magically, not by causing it to be aware, but innately aware, awareness continuously functions.

These two sides of present awareness or Rigpa — its emptiness and its cognizance (lucidity) — are inseparable.

Emptiness and luminosity (knowing) are inseparable.

They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet spacious, vivid, buoyant.

Nothing whatsoever, yet Emaho!, everything is magically experienced.

Simply recognize this.

Look into the magical mirror of mind and appreciate this infinite magical display.

With constant, vigilant mindfulness, sustain this recognition of empty, open, brilliant awareness.

Cultivate nothing else.

There is nothing else to do, or to undo.

Let it remain naturally.

Don’t spoil it by manipulating, by controlling, by tampering with it, and worrying about whether you are right or wrong, or having a good meditation or a bad meditation.

Leave it as it is, and rest your weary heart and mind.

....

 

Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé (1813–1899), the first Jamgon Rinpoche, was a founder of the Rimé movement of Tibetan Buddhism and author of more than one hundred books.

 

http://freddieyam.com/gen2/p/jamgon-kongtrul.html

 

The problem is one of semantics in the quote above.

 

Look into the magical mirror of mind and appreciate this infinite magical display.

 

Look implies observation to put it simply.

 

 

They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet spacious, vivid, buoyant.

 

They? Third person pronoun which is formless? Makes no sense.

[ralis]

Found this description in The Twenty-one Little Nails, the root text from the Zhang-Zhung Nya-Gyud, pointing to the difference between Rigpa and the "nature of mind", rather than "noticing mind"...

 

 

 

As for recognizing the Nature of Mind as distinct from mind, (there are four considerations regarding the Nature of Mind:)

 

 

 

1) it is without thoughts,

 

2) it becomes the basis of everything,

 

3) it is a neutral state (displaying neither virtue nor vice), and

 

4) everything possible originates from it and this is unceasing.

 

 

Seems to fit everything I have been saying.

 

Have a good day

 

To clarify, point # 2 claims that the nature of mind is the basis of everything i.e, all phenomena. Therefor, the basis of all phenomena is the nature of mind. That does not imply in the least a blank mind or absolute mental silence. Moreover, you have defined the nature of mind as an "it" which is an objectification of the nature of mind.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

Do you think that is the end all be all? Just observing thoughts without attachment. Do you really believe that is the highest state of being aka Rigpa?

 

 

...

 

,

You have a poor understanding of the term "rigpa"

Yes, remaining in rigpa is all it takes to get you all the way in Dzogchen. However, defining rigpa as "observing thoughts without attachment" is a poor rendition of the term "rigpa".

 

And then explaining thoughts as a form of energy, hence they are empty, is just plain ridiculous.

 

From Ground, Path and Fruition.

 

Rigpa literally means to know in the sense of "I see!". It is used at all levels of meaning from the coarsest everyday sense of knowing something to the deepest sense of knowing something as presented in the system ofThorough Cut. The system of Thorough Cut uses this term in a very special sense, though it still retains its basic meaning of "to know". To translate it as "awareness" which is common practice these days is a poor practice; there are many kinds of awareness but there is only one rigpa and besides, rigpa is substantially more than just awareness.

 

...

 

74 GROUND, PATH, AND FRUITION

 

when the covers are removed we call it the fruition. However, that the ground is covered over does not mean that it is corrupted; except for the fact that it is covered over, it is exactly what it is. The only difference between it and the fruition is that it is covered over by the obscurations of the path. When you remove those, ground and fruition become the same. This ground is in our minds. The pure ground is the real, very pure, original essence of our mind but at the moment it is not manifest for us because it is obscured by our obscurations.

 

As fixation and grasping decrease, rigpa arrives and increases until it is completely manifest at which time our consciousness is called "rigpa alone", or "dharmakaya" or "graduated to the actuality of the ground" or "graduated to the actuality of the fruition". At that time consciousness has become one with all dharmas in the vast space of dharmata.

 

Thus it is like one person who is being given many different names. In the Dzogchen tradition the progression along the path is described as the progression through dharmata become manifest, experience increasing, rigpa reaching its measure, and dharmata exhausted.

 

At the point of reaching the fruition (when all dharmas become exhausted into dharmata), consciousness is described as the fully manifest buddhahood of all dharmas being the expanse of dharmata or the buddhahood of the inner glow of the youthful vase-body.

 

 

It says "rigpa arrives and increases until it is completely manifest at which time our consciousness is called "rigpa alone", or "dharmakaya" or "graduated to the actuality of the ground" or "graduated to the actuality of the fruition"."

[ralis]

You have a poor understanding of the term "rigpa"

Yes, remaining in rigpa is all it takes to get you all the way in Dzogchen. However, defining rigpa as "observing thoughts without attachment" is a poor rendition of the term "rigpa".

 

And then explaining thoughts as a form of energy, hence they are empty, is just plain ridiculous.

 

From Ground, Path and Fruition.

 

 

It says "rigpa arrives and increases until it is completely manifest at which time our consciousness is called "rigpa alone", or "dharmakaya" or "graduated to the actuality of the ground" or "graduated to the actuality of the fruition"."

 

There are some very good points in that quote!

[Jonesboy]

To clarify, point # 2 claims that the nature of mind is the basis of everything i.e, all phenomena. Therefor, the basis of all phenomena is the nature of mind. That does not imply in the least a blank mind or absolute mental silence. Moreover, you have defined the nature of mind as an "it" which is an objectification of the nature of mind.

Yes all things are self arising. Is that not the lesson you are to learn from lucid dreaming?

 

I didn't write the statement but I believe "it" is being used as a description to help. Like using the term Dao.

[Jonesboy]

Sounds pretty passive like Advaita to me.

Practice has to exceed experience into accomplishment.

The ocean has to become active and to produce waves out of its own,

then previous wind-produced waves and now ocean-produced waves have to dissolve together into the ocean.

The waves are your attachments. When one is one with the ocean it is smooth, calm and flows where it needs to.

 

CHAPTER 8

The greatest good is like water.

Water gives life to the Ten Thousand Things, but does not strive. Because it does not strive, it flows in places without preference, depending on the flow and so is like the Dao.

In dwelling, be close to the land.

In meditation, go deep into the heart.

In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be straight and truthful.

In ruling, be just and honest.

In business, be honest and competent.

In action, be careful of the timing.

Be forever these things and life will never burden you with troubles.

 

Again from TTC

[Tibetan_Ice]

The process described in the Yoga Sutras is about seperating, not fusing.

 

Hmmm. This is fusing together:

Dharana; is the initial step of deep concentrative meditation, where the object being focused upon is held in the mind without consciousness wavering from it. The difference between Dharana, Dhyana, and Samadhi (the three together constituting Samyama) is that in the former, the object of meditation, the meditator, and the act of meditation itself remain separate. That is, the meditator or the meditator's meta-awareness is conscious of meditating (that is, is conscious of the act of meditation) on an object, and of his or her own self, which is concentrating on the object. In the subsequent stage of Dhyana, as the meditator becomes more advanced, consciousness of the act of meditation disappears, and only the consciousness of being/existing and the object of concentration exist (in the mind). In the final stage of Samadhi, the ego-mind also dissolves, and the meditator becomes one with the object

 

 

I am calling "becoming one with the object" fusing together.

At least, that is what it feels like during samadhi.. The object gets brighter and brighter. The senses have fallen away and there is just one solid stream of attention from "you" to the object. Then the object becomes incredibly bright and clear, there is an explosion of bliss and you are gone. That has been my experience with dhyana..

 

For a discussion about Patanjali and all that, see http://thedaobums.com/topic/21469-patanjalis-sutras-and-samyama-questions/

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

If you see me in the ocean just wave.

[Apech]

I do not go checking on views to find out
if my own is high and others' are low
This mind that's not tampered with, left uncontrived 
is when feeling good feels just right

                                                       Milarepa

[Jonesboy]

You have a poor understanding of the term "rigpa"

Yes, remaining in rigpa is all it takes to get you all the way in Dzogchen. However, defining rigpa as "observing thoughts without attachment" is a poor rendition of the term "rigpa".

 

And then explaining thoughts as a form of energy, hence they are empty, is just plain ridiculous.

 

From Ground, Path and Fruition.

 

 

It says "rigpa arrives and increases until it is completely manifest at which time our consciousness is called "rigpa alone", or "dharmakaya" or "graduated to the actuality of the ground" or "graduated to the actuality of the fruition"."

I was saying the opposite. Rigpa is not observing it is being.

 

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

 

Again when one realizes the Natural State you are the flow. From the flow is which all "things " come from and reside back into.

 

Going back to lucid dreaming, it teaches us that our reality is self arising. Rigpa is that residing during our daily life.

 

Rigpa is the ground, ones primordial state is before seperation and observing. You are that which all things arise from and reside back into

Edited January 2, 2016 by Jonesboy