Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Apech]

In winter you shiver, in summer you sweat

 

Though you might spring, you will fall.

[steve]

Seasons change and so did I

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Wth? Thread mutated into a poetry rap battle!?

 

This battle,

Ain't no tittle tattle,

You got your mantra,

Here's some Tantra,

Gonna mix it up then

So it's Dzogchen.

We're

Meditating

Great perfection.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[already]

Seasons change and so did I

I am beyond change .

In my essence i am already ...

[steve]

Sure!

You are practicing Trekchö and the poetry is manifesting spontaneously from your Natural State.

Now I get it.

You can do that with Rushen also - it's powerfully cathartic!

[steve]

Sure!

You are practicing Trekchö and the poetry is manifesting spontaneously from your Natural State.

Now I get it.

 

PS - When one manifests poetry from the Natural State it is similar to the practice of Thodgal

[RigdzinTrinley]

I like butter and toast to clarify my four visions!

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[already]

I wonder how many here have already received thdgal teachings ?

[steve]

Lol, if the words manifest in your vision as glowing letters, then yes.

 

That's not what I mean.

That's too narrow a view of Thodgal - it is not all about the visual sense.

In fact, it is completely independent of the visual sense which is why one method of practicing is in dark retreat.

Thodgal is about experiencing the manifestation of all appearances (including but not limited to vision) as ornaments of awareness and space.

[ralis]

That's not what I mean.

That's too narrow a view of Thodgal - it is not all about the visual sense.

In fact, it is completely independent of the visual sense which is why one method of practicing is in dark retreat.

Thodgal is about experiencing the manifestation of all appearances (including but not limited to vision) as ornaments of awareness and space.

 

The visual sense is not well used due to conditioning and the dark retreat allows the conditions to drop away. The eyes still work but across a broader spectrum. I can walk around the mountains out here in New Mexico on a moonless night and be perfectly fine. Just need to listen for rattlesnakes which could ruin my day.

Edited December 21, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

I wonder how many here have already received thdgal teachings ?

 

If you go to a Namkhai Norbu retreat he includes all the teachings. One must pay attention to everything he says and does to get it.

[already]

If you go to a Namkhai Norbu retreat he includes all the teachings. One must pay attention to everything he says and does to get it.

Well , that doesn't happen very often.So people who want thogdal sooner will have to look elsewhere.

[ralis]

Well , that doesn't happen very often.So people who want thogdal sooner will have to look elsewhere.

 

He gives teachings online these days.

[already]

We were talking about toghal

[C T]

We were talking about toghal

as far as i can see, nothing much was said. 

 

Not that there is much that can be said about it, to be honest. 

 

But habits dictate that words appear so as to bring some sort of order to an otherwise inexpressibly profound exercise that takes place beyond the limits of the faculties of thought and perception. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by C T

[already]

as far as i can see, nothing much was said.

 

Not that there is much that can be said about it, to be honest.

 

But habits dictate that words appear so as to bring some sort of order to an otherwise inexpressibly profound exercise that takes place beyond the limits of the faculties of thought and perception.

Yeah..

But what can be said about thogal on a public forum ?

Even in private can't be said much despite what some might think because togal is surprisingly easy to explain provided that one has the base nailed already.

But the practice of thogal is not easy to sustain in fact it requires lots of effort abd dedication.

[ralis]

Yeah..

But what can be said about thogal on a public forum ?

Even in private can't be said much despite what some might think because togal is surprisingly easy to explain provided that one has the base nailed already.

But the practice of thogal is not easy to sustain in fact it requires lots of effort abd dedication.

 

It seems you already have the togal teachings and yet want to openly discuss it?

Edited December 21, 2015 by ralis

[already]

I received thogal teachings but don't want to discuss them.

[ralis]

I received thogal teachings but don't want to discuss them.

 

Why are you participating in this discussion? Not being willing to discuss is deferring to authoritarians who use fear to force compliance!

Edited December 21, 2015 by ralis

[already]

Yeah but there was never a serious discussion about thogal .

It started as a play with poetry , zen, words and shit and then someone mentioned thogal but that didn't develop into a meaningful discussion.

For god sake lighten up.

So there was never a discussion to begin with.

[Apech]

Yeah but there was never a serious discussion about thogal .

It started as a play with poetry , zen, words and shit and then someone mentioned thogal but that didn't develop into a meaningful discussion.

For god sake lighten up.

So there was never a discussion to begin with.

 

 

My silence denotes ignorance not a refusal to discuss.  Just thought I'd make that clear.

[Tibetan_Ice]

That's not what I mean.

That's too narrow a view of Thodgal - it is not all about the visual sense.

In fact, it is completely independent of the visual sense which is why one method of practicing is in dark retreat.

Thodgal is about experiencing the manifestation of all appearances (including but not limited to vision) as ornaments of awareness and space.

What I have found is that even in the dark, you must use the 'visual sense'. Even though your eyes are closed, you keep looking through them.

 

The key is maintaining and eventually inhabiting your visual sense. This taps into the kati channel.

 

First you can gaze into the blue sky, see the eye floaters and the blue entoptic phenomenon with eyes open.

 

Later, with more practice, you realize that you can see this phenomenon in dim light, if you know where to focus your awareness.

 

Then, later, with eyes closed, you can not only see the blue entoptic phenomenon, you see the dark red round circle visions that look like scratches in the sand around a tiny hole.

 

Later, when you attain stillness by remaining stable in the visual sense, a moon appears on the left, and a sun appears on the right.

 

Then you see bizarre multi-colored geometric patterns. A real kaleidoscope.

 

Then you see round balls or spheres manifest and after a while, you notice that there are people inside the spheres. It is like a soap bubble with a little person sitting inside, in exquisite detail and color. Some of them even wear glasses.

 

Then, you see whole scenes of landscapes, like you've been transported to other places on this world or in other worlds.

 

The clarity and visual crispness is simply amazing.

 

After a while it is hard to tell which is reality because you can step out into a scene and it seems so real.

Then you realize that the slice of reality that you exist in is no different than all the other scenes, it is just that you grasp at the one where your body exists in. (It's also really hard on your head, because reality loses its meaning.

 

I don't know for sure but I suspect that the shrinking rainbow body is when you jump out into another 'scene' and then suck your bodily essence back to yourself in the other 'scene' through some kind of chord or connection.

 

Zoom, I see not allot of difference between tantra and Dzogchen. But you have to define 'tantra'.

 

If you read this book

http://www.amazon.com/The-Main-Dzogchen-Practices-Transmission/dp/B0076WSCJQ

 

you will see that the main point is to dissolve into the central channel but once in the central channel, one uses the kati channel to discover that you are creating all the manifestations including other realities. The main difference between 'tantra', as with consort or learning to dissolve into the central channel without consort, is that 'tantra' doesn't usually mention the kati channel and sort of leaves you there in emptiness. Thogal, on the other hand, proves that we are either creating or have access to, multiple simultaneous universes/worlds.

 

There is a dark cloud over Kelsang Gyatso, some kind of feud between him and the Dalai Lama.. Others on this forum have warned about that a while ago.

 

Tsongkhapa is not well liked in trantric circles because he refused to take a consort while living. He felt it was better to prove that consort practice is not needed, much to the dismay of those who use consorts.

 

Rigpa is not a goal, it is a starting point.

 

Edit: fixed link

Edited December 22, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice