Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[ralis]

If you read this book http://www.amazon.com/The-Main-Dzogchen-Practices-Transmission/dp/B0076WSCJQ 

you will see that the main point is to dissolve into the central channel but once in the central channel, one uses the kati channel to discover that you are creating all the manifestations including other realities.  The main difference between 'tantra', as with consort or learning to dissolve into the central channel without consort, is that 'tantra' doesn't usually mention the kati channel and sort of leaves you there in emptiness.  Thogal, on the other hand, proves that we are either creating or have access to,  multiple simultaneous universes/worlds. 

 

There is a dark cloud over Kelsang Gyatso, some kind of feud between him and the Dalai Lama.. Others on this forum have warned about that a while ago.

 

Tsongkhapa is not well liked in trantric circles because he refused to take a consort while living. He felt it was better to prove that consort practice is not needed, much to the dismay of those who use consorts. 

 

Rigpa is not a goal, it is a starting point. 

 

Are you stating that one is creating other realities or that one is interpreting? Using consorts seems to imply that the female consort receives no benefit or realization, but is merely being used?

Edited December 21, 2015 by ralis

[Apech]

....

 

There is a dark cloud over Kelsang Gyatso, some kind of feud between him and the Dalai Lama.. Others on this forum have warned about that a while ago.

 

Tsongkhapa is not well liked in trantric circles because he refused to take a consort while living. He felt it was better to prove that consort practice is not needed, much to the dismay of those who use consorts. 

 

Rigpa is not a goal, it is a starting point. 

 

The dark cloud hanging over Kelsang Gyatso and the New Kadampa movement is the Dorje Shugden controversy - a tantric practice /deity which the DL says is harmful and has banned.  This is really an internal Gelupa dispute which has been blown up out of all proportion as far as I can see - with protestors declaring it to be something to do with religious freedom and so on.

 

Tsongkhapa was the founder of the Gelugpas which is of the four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism the most monastic.  Obviously as monks take a vow of celibacy they are prevented from dual practice.  This was a problem not only for Gelugs but also in the Kagyu tradition as is illustrated by Gampopa (a monk) a student of Milarepa (a lay tantric yogi).  Gampopa is said to have resolved this issue partly by developing sutric mahamudra and also yab/yum as visualisation only.

[gatito]

Geshe Kelsang's open letter

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden06.php

(www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden06.php)

 

The following Open Letter was posted on Dec 9th 1997 to the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala and to the Office of Tibet in London. This and many other private and public letters and petitions never received a reply.

 

Your Holiness,

 

For over eighteen years you have been continually speaking out against the practice of Dorje Shugden, saying that this practice is bad. Due to your high position, many people believe what you say. If Dorje Shugden practice is really harmful, then this implies that both Je Phabongkhapa and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche made a big mistake and misled their disciples. If they were wrong then the entire Gelug tradition is incorrect.

 

As you know, all practitioners of the Gelug tradition, including yourself, are directly or indirectly the disciples of these two Lamas. Your assertion that the practice of Dorje Shugden is harmful has already destroyed the reputation of these two Lamas and of the Gelug tradition.

 

In particular, beginning in 1996 you have been speaking out publicly against the practice of Dorje Shugden, saying that he is a harmful spirit and harms both the cause of Tibetan independence as well as your health. Your speech has caused the Tibetan people much anxiety, and they have become angry, blaming Dorje Shugden practitioners for their problems, difficulties, and lack of freedom. So, in order to fulfil your wish, which is to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, the government-in-exile and many individual Tibetans are engaged in an organized campaign to destroy this practice by whatever means they can:

 

(1) Removing statues and images from Temples, and destroying them;

(2) Organizing forced-signature campaigns to make people promise to stop this practice;

(3) People who refuse to sign and give up their practice receive abuse and threats, lose their jobs, lose their allowances, are expelled from their monastery, are beaten, etc.;

(4) Those who continue with their practice are treated like outcasts in their own community, like the Jewish people in Germany under Hitler's rule.

 

In this way, internal harmony within the Tibetan settlements has been destroyed. But this problem is no longer just a Tibetan problem; it has become an international one. Many thousands of people are now experiencing suffering, confusion, and loss of faith. You travel throughout the world and everywhere you speak out against the practice of Dorje Shugden, destroying the reputation of Gelugpas everywhere.

 

This situation became increasingly difficult for us to bear, and so, for these reasons the NKT here in the west, and Tibetans in India, organized peaceful demonstrations last year. The demonstrations intended no disrespect to you, but rather were an indication that you had made a mistake in banning this practice, and a request to you to lift the ban. Immediately after the demonstrations the NKT stopped all activity related to this issue, in the hope that you would reconsider your actions and agree to lift the ban.

 

However, your organization has continued to spread false information in western countries, saying:

 

(1) The NKT is working for the Peoples' Republic of China;

(2) The NKT is receiving large sums of money from the Chinese;

(3) The NKT is sectarian;

(4) The practice of Dorje Shugden is sectarian and disruptive of communal harmony;

(5) The practice of Dorje Shugden leads to the degeneration of Buddha's teachings;

(6) 'Research suggests' that association with the practice of Dorje Shugden attracts misfortune;

(7) H.H. Trijang Rinpoche changed his mind and rejected the practice of Dorje Shugden;

(8) Worship of Dorje Shugden harms Tibetan independence and the Dalai Lama's life;

(9) The practice of Dorje Shugden is innately disruptive and divisive.

 

I clearly understand that the purpose behind all this negative publicity is to destroy the NKT and the practice of Dorje Shugden in the west. The reputation of the NKT and of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the west has been severely affected because people believe these statements, which are simply lies.

 

In April of this year one article appeared in Newsweek magazine in which you made unpleasant and humiliating statements about the NKT and myself. As you know this magazine is published in almost every country in the world, in many languages. There can be no purpose for this other than to destroy the NKT.

 

At that time, I made the decision to clarify this religious issue in public. Nowadays, there is much debate and argument about you, myself and Dorje Shugden, which is causing the reputation of Buddhists world-wide to degenerate. This is shameful; this problem has not been created by the Deity Dorje Shugden but by human beings under the influence of delusion. No matter how much everyone debates and argues, it seems that there is no solution; instead the problem is getting worse.

 

I have written to you several times asking for valid proof of your statements that Dorje Shugden is harming the Tibetan cause and your life. I have not received a reply from you. I did receive one letter from your office in Dharamsala, trying to prove your assertions about Dorje Shugden by quoting from books written by other Lamas that say he is a worldly spirit. The quotes never mention that the practice of Dorje Shugden could harm either the Tibetan cause or your life. Since many other Lamas have said and written that Dorje Shugden is a manifestation of Buddha Manjushri, the above reason is clearly not valid.

 

Your ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden is a direct attack on religious freedom. This is against the UN 'Universal Declaration of Human Rights', and also against the law in democratic countries such as the United States. You are also engaging in Deity discrimination, which breaks the constitutional law of India.

 

If the worship of Dorje Shugden is really harming the Tibetan cause, your people and your life, then you have good reasons for this ban, but I need clear evidence from you. Until now this has not been forthcoming. I do not want this situation to deteriorate any further, and would like to see this problem come to an end as soon as possible. This completely depends on you.

 

It seems that there are only two possibilities here: either you can give valid reasons proving that Dorje Shugden is harming the Tibetan cause, your people and your life; or you should accept that you have made a mistake and publicly retract your statements. If you are really a Bodhisattva and love your people and truly want Buddhadharma to flourish throughout the world then you must solve this problem.

 

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

[Tibetan_Ice]

Are you stating that one is creating other realities or that one is interpreting? Using consorts seems to imply that the female consort receives no benefit or realization, but is merely being used?

I cannot tell the difference. I have not tried to manipulate any of the "scenes" although I interact with them. How would you know if you are creating a reality or participating in something someone else created?

 

If the consort is a yidam deity, or a visualized consort, then at the highest level it is your own mind's construction through visualization. If it is a thought form, then yes, you can empower it with characteristics and behaviors. But it is empty, has no intrinsic permanent existence apart from the mind essence.

 

For consort practice with an actual physical being, remember what the Dalai Lama said. Unless you can transform shit and piss into tasty treats you have no business performing consort practice. Both partners need to be at that level of accomplishment so the question of whom benefits, realizes or is being used is moot.

[Jetsun]

The Shugden issue is a strange one, the last two times I have seen the Dalai Lama in the UK he has been accosted by a rabble of angry screaming Scottish people who say they are representing Shugden. Why these people seem to think they should get involved with Tibetan sectarian politics is beyond me. I also think there may be some Chinese involvement.

[C T]

Ever seen the movie The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly? Who is what is entirely dependent on which camp you sit with. 

[already]

Please dont turn this into yet another nonsensical shugden dispute...

[steve]

Back to the topic -

We were discussing dzogchen and tantra.

There's a very good book called Bönpo Dzogchen Teachings written by the most senior Bön Buddhist teacher alive, Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche. It discusses, among other things, dzogchen and tantra similarities and differences from a Bönpo perspective.

Highly recommended for anyone interested in the topic.

Edited December 22, 2015 by steve

[RigdzinTrinley]

 

Is gingerbreadman a dzogchenpa or not?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

For a practitioner, this is even better.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Main-Dzogchen-Practices-Transmission/dp/B0076WSCJQ

[Tibetan_Ice]

And this one too..

http://www.amazon.com/The-Meditation-Clear-Light-Transmission/dp/B0076WQZ8Q

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

To learn thodgal postures, breathing and gazing is easy.

However, entering and remaining in the Natural State are not.

Even after a direct introduction to it, it has to be rediscovered every time again by the practitioner.

Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings - Lopon Tenzin Namdak

page 30

 

In other words: A "direct introduction" is no energy transmission,

that enables the practitioner to enter the Natural State from that point on.

It is just an experience given by the master as a guidepost

and I guess many practitioners fail to remember it correctly,

when next time they have to enter it by themselves.

That's how humans are.

 

 

Exactly. Persons who receive the Dzogchen introduction have a vibe for about two weeks and the feeling disappears. Instead of self remembering the direct introduction as instructed, most if not all recipients of the teaching, have an addictive need to chase after the teacher to maintain the vibe. The vibe is an inherent part of their own being and not from the teacher. I have seen myriad seekers glomming onto teachers as if such teachers were the parents they never had. Many behave like toddlers.

 

Same thing in the Sufi tradition in which teachers always remind practitioners to 'self remember' which is an ongoing process.

Edited December 23, 2015 by ralis

[Apech]

Seems to work quite differently to mahamudra.

[ralis]

Seems to work quite differently to mahamudra.

 

 

That is a really long explanation.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings - Lopon Tenzin Namdak

page 72

page 100

 

I never cared for the Mahamudra teachings when I was introduced to those almost 30 years ago. The requirements to complete the preliminaries were just too much to ask and offered nothing as an introduction to Dzogchen.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Buddhist teachings with the exception of Dzogchen, are deep into moralizing and karmic guilt tripping. Moreover, the student is forever beholden to the priest. Not so in Dzogchen.

Edited December 23, 2015 by ralis

[Apech]

Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings - Lopon Tenzin Namdak

page 72

page 100

 

 

yes I'm aware of Sakya Pandita's criticisms but from what I can tell he was talking from a rather slanted understanding of Mahamudra.  It doesn't come from Dzogchen but was taught to Marpa by Maitripa and originates I think with Saraha.  In other words it was a direct transmission from mahasiddhis.  'No thought' is not taught as a goal anywhere in mahamudra - but it does occur in Ch'an teachings from the period which was practiced in some places.

 

Anyway I am pleased to be left alone to practice mahamudra with all this dzogchenism about which seems to have developed a life of its own.

[Tibetan_Ice]

From "The Meditation on the Clear Light - Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche"

 

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[ralis]

From "The Meditation on the Clear Light - Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche"

 

NaturalState.jpg

 

Could you scan that to a pdf so that one can expand the text?

[Apech]

From "The Meditation on the Clear Light - Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche"

 

 ns_Small.gif

 can't read that it's too blurred.