Neidan vs Qigong

[Jox]

ACHE Research Dr. Leung YK Phd aka Shidelon Or just YK Leung

 

Tnx ... I will take a look ...

[Astral Monk]

after reading all this thread, I'm interested if someone can give just one example of what a neidan practice is and how it is radically different from qigong. And not just metaphorical quotes from texts but one example of what a simple neidan practice is.

 

Is this possible?

 

8)

[Andrei]

Nope, because is highly personalized, it differs from school to school, and it should be transmitted from heart to heart. The secrecy is not because they are mean, it's just because someone should assume a lot of responibility, and no one does that.

[MooNiNite]

I don't know where I read it recently, but I think I read that sitting facing the wall for 9 years is a very late-stage Nei Dan practice. But, extended seated practices aren't used until very advanced stages.

 

you dont have to do what he did, just follow his teachings

[Yae]

after reading all this thread, I'm interested if someone can give just one example of what a neidan practice is and how it is radically different from qigong. And not just metaphorical quotes from texts but one example of what a simple neidan practice is.

 

Is this possible?

 

8)

 

No it's not possible. I'm pretty sure this was mentioned many times before. The practice is only transmitted in person, not through writing.

 

I think the member's name is "Alchemist", they wrote an extensive list of what the practice is not. So c'mon look it up and try to crack the riddle with me of what it could possibly be.

 

Right now I'm thinking it's some sort of involuntary movement similar to a qigong branch, except not that at all because I don't think that practice cultivates any sort of LDT. Lol hard riddle.

 

*This is just based on what I've been reading recently in Wu Liu Pai specifically.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Bluemind

[Taoist Texts]

, it's just because someone should assume a lot of responibility,

who is that someone? what responsibility exactly?

[Andrei]

The one who is teaching you, the so called master-guru. It's supposed to be a trustful relationship, because if he is damaging you, should fix you. It's about your health and life ultimately.

[Taoist Texts]

The one who is teaching you, the so called master-guru. It's supposed to be a trustful relationship, because if he is damaging you, should fix you. It's about your health and life ultimately.

Ah, ok, i understand, thanks. Well may be this is relevant:

 

 

 

"I (Wang Zhe) took [Ma] Yu [with me] and stayed at the Smoky Mist

Grotto on Mt. Kunyu. Because his mind had not yet died (his mind

had still not gotten rid of confused thoughts), [Ma Yu] got ill. He

suffered aching throughout his head, and the pain was unbearable.

[it was] as though he was being hacked at with an ax. I ordered him

to descend from the mountain and treat [his headache] at his home.

But [after he had gone home] the pain became even more severe. A

man came up the mountain and reported [Ma Yu’s condition] saying,

“[At this] moment at which I have arrived here, Mr. Ma has [most

probably] already died.” Upon hearing this I clapped my hands,

laughed loudly and said, “I came [to Shandong] wanting to make him

into an immortal. I appreciate your telling me about his [supposed]

death. He caught this disease because of his lack of faith.”38

Wang Zhe, as we saw in the previous chapter, was notorious for subjecting

his disciples to harsh discipline. Here we see an occasion where the hardships

had gotten the best of his top disciple, Ma Yu, who had to be sent down

from the mountain.

 

(Eskildsen)

 

[opendao]

after reading all this thread, I'm interested if someone can give just one example of what a neidan practice is and how it is radically different from qigong. And not just metaphorical quotes from texts but one example of what a simple neidan practice is.

 

Is this possible?

 

To a certain extent: Neidan practices don't look very different from qigong, daoyin or yoga. Don't forget that some traditional qigong sets had their roots in neidan. But what make them different _by results_ is the level of details you need to know (practically). It is similar to external alchemy recipes with a lot of steps, right ingredients, moon phases, wind directions etc. And all that has to be applied individually and very carefully. That's why a knowledgeable teacher is necessary: it's impossible to re-invent all that.

 

You can take zhan zhuang: it's used in qigong, in neigong (martial arts like yiquan) and in neidan. But the results in all 3 will be different. This difference is because of the details: hands position, additional techniques to enter in the exercise and exit it, the correct order of initial movements to set the position, internal processes, collected long time effect and so on. I hope you grasped the idea.

 

When people say that "meditation is enough", they don't really understand the complexity. Neidan is a vast system of knowledge about how the human body and the world around it work together. Even Bodhidharma's legacy is much wider then just "sitting in front of the wall": there are yijingjing / xisuijing sets, there are sayings by first patriarchs. It was obviously a system, where "sitting in front of the wall" was just the last stage. Same as in Dao.

 

The secrecy is not because they are mean, it's just because someone should assume a lot of responibility, and no one does that.

 

right. And such responsibility deals also with the fact that the ming practices give a big excess of energy. Teacher is responsible if the student goes wild and becomes a monster. That's why it takes a while to test a student. It takes a lot of time to clear the heart by various exercises. It's a long and tedious process for both parts. The methods cannot be shared widely because of that. It's like to give a shotgun to a child.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"after reading all this thread, I'm interested if someone can give just one example of what a neidan practice is and how it is radically different from qigong. And not just metaphorical quotes from texts but one example of what a simple neidan practice is."

-----

 

These can each be seen as part of qigong. Generally speaking, Wai Dan practice is external and concerning the muscles and tendons, and Nei Dan is internal and concerning the marrow.

 

"Iron Shirt" training is an example of Wai Dan. The focus of Iron Shirt is more dealing with the physical body.

 

Nei Dan is more internal, and concerned with the development of the Energy Body, and further, to the development of the Spiritual Body, much like that depicted in The Secret of the Golden Flower illustrations (if not fully in the somewhat inaccurately translated texts commonly available).

 

Ultimately, these are inter-related. Even though for most martial-arts people, for example, the more external Iron Shirt is emphasized first and is more primary to that stage of interest, it would be incomplete and non-sustainable over an extended time without Nei Dan practice as well.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[ChiDragon]

after reading all this thread, I'm interested if someone can give just one example of what a neidan practice is and how it is radically different from qigong. And not just metaphorical quotes from texts but one example of what a simple neidan practice is.

 

Is this possible?

 

8)

 

This is only MMHO.......

 

Let's see if I can clear the air about the confusion between Niedan and Qigong.

 

The idea of Neidan(內丹, internal alchemy) is an emulation from the concept of Weidan(外丹, external alchemy). Many people had misunderstood that Neidan and Qigong are two different kinds of practices but not. However, one will know what is the difference by understand the definitions of the two.

 

In the Chinese Taoist history, the idea of Weidan(外丹) is to manufacture a pill externally by baking it in an oven. This idea was borrowed by the ancient Taoists to emulate this concept inside the body. This way, the body will benefit the alchemy efficacy directly and it can be eliminate the external alchemy process.

 

Actually, Naidan is a form of Qigong for refining the Jing, Chi and Shen(精氣神). For now, let's not go into the description of these three items. It is a new can of worms. So to speak. Neidan is only a name given to this procedure for the method by the Taoists. Qigong is the main process was used to refine and enhance the potency of Jing, Chi and Shen. Thus Qigong is only part of the procedural routine for the Neidan method.

 

In Weidan, the ingredients were some earthy elements such as lead and mercury and etc. The main aiding ingredient is fire. In Neidan, the ingredients Jing, Chi and Shen; and Qiging is analogous to the fire, as in Weidan, for Neidan alchemy.

 

In summary....

If one is performing Qigong or Chi Kung, then one is already doing internal alchemy already without realizing that the body is benefiting the efficacy of Neidan.

 

Like somebody had already said....

It's about changing and manipulating your own hormones. In 9 words.

Everything else is bullshit . 4 words.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

after reading all this thread, I'm interested if someone can give just one example of what a neidan practice is and how it is radically different from qigong. And not just metaphorical quotes from texts but one example of what a simple neidan practice is.

 

Is this possible?

 

8)

 

The energy in the body is full of different systems and circulations, all serving the purpose of making our bodies work, slowly drawing on our reserve primordial qi until it runs out and we die.

 

Energy work (qi gong) explores this energy and works on returning it to full health.

 

Neidan (or jindan, golden elixir) takes the energies in operation in the body, and merges them back together following the order of their creation... at which point different components are no longer "hidden" and these are taken and merged to create medicines which are circulated and refined throughout the body following specific orders, and so on, until one has returned the body to a level of purity where even one's past lives have been dissolved into a unified emptiness that is complete, and ultimately one is able to pass beyond the boundaries of the universe as we know it.

 

Or something like that. There are many perspectives. Naturally a process like this is not just about playing with energy, but requires precise balancing for various components to come together, and the external world continues to present challenges, so dealing with this is a component as well. Every person has a unique energetic make-up and tendency, so the way to balance is unique for all of us - not everyone is likely prepared to do this work, but those who are, and are sincere, are able to find teachers.

 

 

 

Lu asked:

 

What is the Major Return?"

 

Chung said:

 

"The dragon and the tiger copulate and are transformed into the yellow sprouts. Lead is extracted, mercury is replenished, and the great medicine is completed. In the palace of the Black Tortoise, the golden sparks fly up; at the foot of the mountains of the Jade City, the true vapor rises. Carried by the Waterwheel, the vapor climbs to the top of the peak. Along the way it moistens the jade elixir in the middle. The circulation begins with the true vapor flowing from the lower to the upper field. Then it descends from the upper to the lower field. The circulation completes its course when it emerges from the back and arrives at the front. This is the Great Return. Practitioners who know how to get the dragon and the tiger to copulate, eject the golden sparks, nurture the immortal fetus, and create the true vapor should be able to to build the middle tan-t'ien and achieve the Major Return."

 

Lu asked:

 

"Now that I have heard about the Great Return, can you tell me about the Return of the numberic seven and the Circulation and Return of the numeric nine?"

 

Chung said:

 

"In the cycle of the five elements, there are five pairs of numbers in the numerics of creation and completion. Sky is one, three, five, seven, and nine. Earth is two, four, six, eight, and ten. The numbers one, three, five, seven, and nine are yang in nature. They add up to twenty-five. The numbers two, four, six, eight, and ten are yin in nature. They add up to thirty. The water of the kidneys is the numeric one. The one of water is followed by the two of fire, three of wood, four of metal, and five of earth. In these numerics of creation, three are yang and two are yin. The water of the kidneys is also the numeric six. The six of water is followed by the seven of fire, eight of wood, nine of metal, and ten of earth. In these numerics of completion, three are yin and two are yang.

 

"In the human body, the five elements also follow the rules of creation and completion. The kidneys belong to the element water; thus its numerics are one and six. The heart belongs to the element fire; thus its numerics are two and seven. The liver belongs to the element wood; thus its numerics are three and eight. The lungs belong to the element metal; thus its numerics are four and nine. The spleen belongs to the element earth; thus its numerics are five and ten. The viscera also have their yin and yang components. Yin reaches its limit in the numeric eight and is strongest in two. Therefore, when the vapor reaches the liver, the residual yin is purged from the kidneys, and when the vapor reaches the heart, the Great Ultimate will give birth to yin. The numeric two resides in the heart and the numeric eight resides in the liver. Yang is at the end of its limit in the numeric nine and is strongest in one. Therefore, when the fluid reaches the lungs, the residual yang is purged from the heart, and when the fluid reaches the kidneys, the Great Ultimate will give birth to yang. The numeric one resides in the kidneys and the numeric nine resides in the lungs. When practitioners can get the dragon and the tiger to copulate and gather the one true vapor of the heart, they are said to be gathering the numeric seven. When the numeric seven moves from the middle tan-t'ien to the lower tan-t'ien the immortal fetus will be nourished. From the lower tan-t'ien, the numeric seven completes its course by returning to the heart. This process is called 'the numeric seven returning to the elixir field.'

 

"Yin wanes in the numerics two and eight. When the true vapor emerges, teh numeric two will be purged and there will be no more yin in the heart. When the great medicine materializes, the numeric eight will be purged and there will be no more yin in the liver. When the yin in the two and eight is purged, the yang of three and nine will grow. In this way yin will be purged from the liver and the heart will be strengthened. If the numeric three of the liver is strong, yang will be strong. After the numeric seven has returned to the heart to purge the fluid of the lungs, the numeric nine of the lungs will circulate and strengthen the hearth. When the numeric nine of the lungs is strong, yang will be strong. When yang is strong, the yang of the numerics three and nine will grow. This process is called 'the numeric nine circulating and returning to the elixir field.'"

 

Lu said:

 

"In the Return of the numeric seven, the yang in the heart is returned to the heart to reside in the middle tan-t'ien. In the Circulation and Return of the numeric nine, the yang in the lungs, which originated from the heart, is also returned to the heart to reside in the middle tan-t'ien. Now that I know about the Return of the numeric seven and the Circulation and Return of the numeric nine, may I learn about the meaning of the upward and downward interaction of the golden and jade elixirs, the flow and ebb of yin and yang, and their return to the tan-t'iens?"

 

Chung said:

 

"In the past some people have argued that the 'return of the golden elixir' refers to the descent of the fluid of the lungs to the lower tan-t'ien. They have also said that the 'return of the jade elixir' is the descent of the fluid of the heart to the lower tan-t'ien. They are wrong. These statements don't even come close to describing the mysterious workings of heaven.

 

"Although the lungs give birth to the kidneys when metal creates water, it is incorrect to describe metal entering water as "returning to the tan-t'ien.' Although the kidneys control the heart when water tames fire, it is incorrect to describe water entering fire as 'returning to the tan-t'ien.'

 

"The golden elixir is the fluid of the lungs, and this fluid encloses the immortal fetus. Together with the dragon and the tiger, the fluid and the fetus are escorted into the Yellow Chamber. When the great medicine is complete and extracting and replenishing have occurred behind the navel, the fluid of the lungs will fly up to the Upper Palace and then return to the middle tan-t'ien. This is the process of 'the golden elixir returning to the tan-t'ien.'

 

"The jade elixir is the fluid of the kidneys. The fluid of the kidneys follows the upward movement of the primordial vapor and rises to gather at the heart. If you accumulate it, it will become the Golden Water. If you channel it upward, the Jade Pool will be filled. If you refine it, it will be transformed into White Snow. If you move it out of the middle tan-t'ien into the lower tan-t'ien, the immortal fetus will be bathed and steamed, provided that you have already collected the medicine. If you let it rise from the middle tan-t'ien and then direct it to the four limbs, the body will be refined and your bones will be purged of mundane dust. However, if it is not received [in the lower tan-t'ien], it will not rise. This cycle occurs endlessly and it is called 'the jade elixir returning to the tan-t'ien.'

 

"When yin reaches its limit, yang will be born. Within yang is the one true water. When this water rises with the yang, it is referred to as 'the yin returning to the field of yang.' When yang reaches its limit, yin will be born. Within yin is the one true vapor of yang. When this vapor descends with the yin, it is referred to as 'the yang returning to the field of yin.' In the process of repairing the brain and refining the top of the head, the lower returns to the upper. In the process of moistening and watering, the upper returns to the middle. In the process of cooking the pill and applying the fire, the upper returns to the lower. In the process of refining the form and heating the body, the lower returns to the middle.

 

"When the five elements interact in their reverse order, the three tan-t'iens will be tossed. As a result, the three fields will exchange contents with each other. This process will occur until the body is refined and transmuted into vapor and vapor is refined and transmuted into spirit. The spirit is first tranported from the lower tan-t'ien to the middle tan-t'ien. Then it is moved from the middle to the upper tan-t'ien. Finally it is transported from the upper tan-t'ien to the Celestial Gate, where it will exit the body. At this time the mundane form will be left behind as the spirit enters the realm of the sacred. When the three transportations from the bottom to the top are complete, there will be no more 'returns.'"

 

The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu, tl Eva Wong

 

This is just a piece.... the "math" in this book is extensive. This text is supposedly a commentary on the Ling Bao Bi Fa, which I don't believe has been fully translated into English, but the translated Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu supposedly includes techniques from this text, as taught to and by Wang Liping.

 

The "math" is extensive - it describes the fabric of reality - but the body knows how to do these things when guided appropriately. Many of these transformations will occur on their own if one sincerely practices qi gong - but how does one know which stage one is at, or what comes next? Rare is the perfect person, but it is common for one to be natural at one thing and find another thing difficult. But to return to the Tao requires full mastery of one's self, and what one has trouble with also needs work. Hence the importance of a teacher who has already experienced these transformations and can see what needs to be done. If one were to attempt controlling their body to do these things in ways the body was not ready for, the body could easily be damaged.

 

Further, not everyone's "karma" is prepared to take such a journey. It is possible for people to have dabbled in these arts in the past when it was not their time then either, and now they feel tugged this way again, but are still missing out on what they really need to be doing to achieve balance this lifetime. Always follow the heart, always work to understand the messages the tao has left during one's entire life. Then one will know what to do.

 

One might say the goal of Neidan is what sets it apart.

 

 

Edit: I do not mean to imply Neidan is the only way to achieve the goal of Neidan, or to put Neidan on a pedestal above other ways.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Daeluin

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Actually, Naidan is a form of Qigong for refining the Jing, Chi and Shen(精氣神)"

-----

 

Yes, part of Qigong (but not "part" if people think Qigong is just Iron Shirt or Tao Yin). And very misunderstood because so much is missing from it, and attempts to find the missing parts have depended on 1. scholars going through old translations of already obscure writing, and 2. People looking for some undiscovered master or school or family that knows them. Notice the "questions and conclusions" near the end of Yang Jwing Ming's books, for just one popular example, and the speculative nature of much of Mantak Chia's stuff about the "Immortal-ist" produce (or, "exrtaodinary abilities, results, etc) of Nei Dan Inner Alchemy training. They don't know.

 

I hope to get into discussing some of the missing parts of this practice on this forum, somewhere, but being new here, I am first just reading what's generally going on here first and testing some waters.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[ChiDragon]

No one can stay away from Qigong. It doesn't matter what method or practice that one involves in. Qigong is the Ultimate Method of Breathing(UMB). It is an independent practice of all but must be part of all.

Yes, part of Qigong (but not "part" if people think Qigong is just Iron Shirt or Tao Yin)

 

Yes, if, and only if, people think Qigong is just Iron Shirt or Tao Yin but it was not.

Iron Shirt is a form of Neigong(內功) which is an internal practice. Again, it requires the aid of Qigong to get there.

Edited December 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Energy work (qi gong) explores this energy and works on returning it to full health.

 

IMO, In the moment(s) of life.... not sure beyond.

 

Neidan (or jindan, golden elixir) takes the energies in operation in the body, and merges them back together following the order of their creation... at which point different components are no longer "hidden" and these are taken and merged to create medicines which are circulated and refined throughout the body following specific orders, and so on, until one has returned the body to a level of purity where even one's past lives have been dissolved into a unified emptiness that is complete, and ultimately one is able to pass beyond the boundaries of the universe as we know it.

 

Or something like that. There are many perspectives. Naturally a process like this is not just about playing with energy, but requires precise balancing for various components to come together, and the external world continues to present challenges, so dealing with this is a component as well.

 

Not talk of self, heart, awareness, clarity?

 

I think you are just casting an explanation but at least is ok.

 

Every person has a unique energetic make-up and tendency, so the way to balance is unique for all of us - not everyone is likely prepared to do this work, but those who are, and are sincere, are able to find teachers.

 

THis is the fate.destiny aspect I have talked about... Even those who talk are not always prepared

 

Further, not everyone's "karma" is prepared to take such a journey. It is possible for people to have dabbled in these arts in the past when it was not their time then either, and now they feel tugged this way again, but are still missing out on what they really need to be doing to achieve balance this lifetime. Always follow the heart, always work to understand the messages the tao has left during one's entire life. Then one will know what to do.

 

That first line is golden... and the second comes close... Now your consolation to those not prepare is to follow the heart.

 

One might say the goal of Neidan is what sets it apart.

 

Everything has a goal... so I would not use that as a basis... Many paths have the same end goal.

 

Niedan is just a method/practice/way. difficult and challenging and a path less traveled...

[JinlianPai]

The cultivation of the dan and its field. This is yin and yang internal and external.

 

Neidan means internal cultivation of the dan meaning that if I were to observe you practicing then all I would see is you sitting there for it is all done internally like the MCO.

 

Weidan means external cultivation of the dan the elixir meaning if I were to watch you practice you would either be doing a seated or standing moving med for it is external movement or the cultivation of the field.

 

A good cultivation system has both. For it is the cultivation of dan.

 

When you work with the field it works and circulates the dan and vice versa.

 

Remember it is the dan and its field.......

Edited December 26, 2014 by JinlianPai

[Daeluin]

Not talk of self, heart, awareness, clarity?

 

I was once told a master is someone who has cultivated their heart to perfection and then offered their heart to the mother (tao).

 

Now your consolation to those not prepare is to follow the heart.

 

Why consolation for those who don't follow their heart in the first place? Not following heart is what gets us lost. Deciding to follow the heart again is no consolation, it is the prize.

 

Everything has a goal... so I would not use that as a basis... Many paths have the same end goal.

 

Niedan is just a method/practice/way. difficult and challenging and a path less traveled...

 

Qi Gong, or energy work, seems to me like a very broad subject. Certainly it has goals, like a politician has goals. Neidan, to me, is defined by its specific goals of aiming at the root, just like a presidential candidate is signified by their specific goals of achieving presidency. The goal is what shapes the techniques, the parts and methods are subordinate to the goal, even as the parts and methods too are what separate two schools aiming at the same goal.

 

When the whole is divided, parts need names.

When parts get names, people start evaluating them and confusion arises.

[Ilkka]

Are you breathless now.....???

Not anymore, but once I think I was, years ago when I first started to meditate. Now I have much more to think about when meditating, but I might go ahead and try it again because I have had enough introspection (I think). Although to achieve that state would require some work nowadays. I remember that I went to a deep trance state for awhile where I didn't notice myself breathing at all when I suddenly woke up and took a big inhale. I think I remember that the video also told about that one would not notice the air going in the lungs but just from nose to the forehead, and this is what I remember noticing when meditating back then.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

this is a big horrible can of worms to be opening now,

but it needs to be opened, and i think some people here have already developed a taste for worms:

 

neidan does not start from preheaven practice because there is no such thing as conscious preheaven practice.

 

if you want to enter xiantian, that will have to be done by gradually building up yuan jing and later yuan qi through post heaven practice.

sitting silently does not indicate that you have reached the pre heaven stage of practice.

consider the following concepts are post heaven practices:

 

- wen huo wu huo (passive and active fire)

- zhuan zhi rou (focus on the ultimate softness)

- xu xin, shi fu (empty the mind fill the belly)

 

actually, they are all post heaven practices up until xuan men.

Once someone has passed through Shenming (obscure and unclear) completely and entered the mystery gate, then their practice will have reached the xiantian phase.

this kind of practice is done while the mind is still aware of itself, but many external factors such as amount of time passing, and separation between self and body will become unclear.

 

any practice before that stage is still controlled by "yi" and not "zhen yi."

 

if you have already developed strong zhen yi and entered xuanmen, please take me as your student, because you are way ahead of us!!!

 

Now, having said that,

Qi gong is not neidan, and anyone who says it is happens to be not educated in the subject.

 

qi gong is part of daoist practice, but so is anything which cultivates qi.

 

Qi gong is ideally part of ones' post heaven training, and should be a way to strengthen the body and help the flow of post birth qi in the meridians.

 

Laozi was not fo and he never said to forget the body.

Because Daoists recognize that they have a body, they will always emphasize both post and pre birth practice, unlike some groups of buddhists who are willing to sacrifice their bodies for spiritual attainment.

 

qigong, just like proper diet, going to get exercises and fresh air, and not wasting toooooo much time on da net is just another good way to keep your qi and body strong enough to cultivate a deep practice.

 

Anyway, Neidan is no more special than good Buddhist, Christian, Sufi, or whatever other branch of excellent meditation you practice. It is also not a panacea, and by now it isn't really that much of a secret for those willing to do the leg work to figure out what the heck it is.

[JinlianPai]

Anyway, Neidan is no more special than good Buddhist, Christian, Sufi, or whatever other branch of excellent meditation you practice. It is also not a panacea, and by now it isn't really that much of a secret for those willing to do the leg work to figure out what the heck it is.

 

Ok I like your above post except for this statement.

 

So before I post my own point of view let me say that ive never trained in Buddhist, Christian, Sufi practices. So my point of view can be totally wrong.

 

But

 

My understanding that neidan and taoism maybe similar to other esoteric arts but it is also unique.

 

To attain the Tao you have to come in thru one of the mother lines of the tao

 

 

This determines the taoist sects and the energies they work with. To spiritually have such a deep connection with very powerful forces of nature in your daily life is very taoist.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

sure, daoism is quite well developed in the meditation field.

my point was that people ought not to treat it as if it is more special than any other type of practice.

doing that would ruin the whole wonderful point that all things are connected by the way.

 

anyway, i would also posit that one should never marry themselves completely to one aspect of daoism.

imagine getting a really great sandwhich but only eating one side of it because it is the side you chose first.

 

anyone who is interested in daoism owes it to themselves to research all areas of the practice.

lets say I practice mostly Quanzhen techniques, but I also take a great deal of information from dao de jing chanwei and luyutang, which existed well before quanzhen even began. we shouldn't close ourselves to the possibility of excellent things, just because our teacher told us not to look at them

[Aetherous]

What is xuanmen?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

oh sorry,

xuan men: mystery gate.

 

mystery gate is a transitional phase in meditation practice that occurs in two areas.

the first is that at a basic level, a successful practice will move through a phase called shen ming, which basically means obscure and unclear. that is the time when the mind becomes somewhat turbid and the person meditating stops using the thoughts to control the mind. when this phase is complete, the qi tends to move by itself, and go to other parts of the body.

this kind of practice can be considered as a small mystery gate which can be achieved during the early stages of practice.

the real mystery gate practice happens much later, when the person has begun to show physical signs of enlightenment (sorry for using that word, it is a bit later here and i'm grasping for appropriate terms). It is usually indicated by long time dialation in practice. the practice may seem very short, but a long time has actually gone by. this is the time in which the nervous system and mind begin to reorganize themselves and when daoists consider the body to begin to develop in the same way it did during the time spent in the womb before birth.

This kind of practice is somewhat akin to getting a black belt in karate, in that it is not mastery, but it is an indication that your practice has moved beyond the basics and into a more subtle realm, where true learning can take place.

 

in my understanding, the development of practice is:

 

houtian to xiantian: the post heaven method of cultivation (use of the mind to control the energy) to the pre heaven method (allowing the energy to move naturally in the body)

 

attain yuanjing: the phase when the jing becomes more free and qi begins to circulate in the body naturally during practice

(have to thank a friend for sharing that information with me a few months ago)

 

frequently attain shenming and xuanqiao: this state should allow you to enter into the pre heaven state more quickly during meditation and you should be able to stay there for longer periods of time. you should also begin to have physical results and experiences where the mind relaxes completely.

 

enter xuan men: the stage where yuanqi solidifies and the practice can be controlled completely by zhenyi (the real mind).

at this time, there may be serious physical results as the energy begins to truly solidify. this is a dangerous time for meditators, because it is easy to damage the qi if you become afraid by the experience of entering xuan men in a more refined way (hallucination and things of that nature can occur, so it is good to have an experienced teacher at that time to help you)

 

work toward becoming sheng ren: this is for religious people who wish to become saints. this is the second last phase of dan dao training

 

cheng xian: to become immortal. I don't have any comment because I have never met an immortal, so I have no point of reference.

 

anyway, obviously there are also phases such as xiao yao "da yao" or small and great medicine and a whole bunch of other stuff which can be specified among the various schools and lineages, but you get the picture.

[opendao]

this is a big horrible can of worms to be opening now,

but it needs to be opened, and i think some people here have already developed a taste for worms:

 

neidan does not start from preheaven practice because there is no such thing as conscious preheaven practice.

 

if you want to enter xiantian, that will have to be done by gradually building up yuan jing and later yuan qi through post heaven practice.

sitting silently does not indicate that you have reached the pre heaven stage of practice.

consider the following concepts are post heaven practices:

 

- wen huo wu huo (passive and active fire)

- zhuan zhi rou (focus on the ultimate softness)

- xu xin, shi fu (empty the mind fill the belly)

...

the post heaven method of cultivation (use of the mind to control the energy) to the pre heaven method (allowing the energy to move naturally in the body)

 

 

Postheaven, houtian, is about different channels and energy patterns then xiantian. So it's hard to to accept the classification you suggest. Also, there are qigong practices that work without using the mind, and the energy flows naturally there as well. But they don't restore yuan jing, because they work with a different energy, different channels and different energy dynamic patterns.

 

The difference between xiantian and houtian is not about mind. It's about qi.

 

(no matter if we speak about northern Quanzhen or any southern school: such concepts are the ancient foundation with roots in Yijing)

 

Neidan starts with preheaven - xiantian. No doubts here :-) If it's postheaven then it's qigong.

 

Maybe it's better to think not about the subject of practice (mind, self etc), but about object (yuan qi vs postheaven qi)

 

Anyway, Neidan is no more special than good Buddhist, Christian, Sufi, or whatever other branch of excellent meditation you practice. It is also not a panacea, and by now it isn't really that much of a secret for those willing to do the leg work to figure out what the heck it is.

 

If by "excellent meditation" you mean the full set of methods to develop Ming and Xing, then I agree. I haven't met such schools outside of Dao though. Chan has had it before but now...

 

And the term is not really good: in the correct practices nobody meditates on something :-)) Initial concentration and awareness comes naturally through the energy work on specific channels. That's the real panacea hard to find even in China

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

can you please provide me with a textual reference in Chinese from a classic that differentiates post and pre heaven as being about qi channels and mind?

 

I'm not trying to be a hardon, but we are all learning from each other here, and I have never come across such a reference.

 

My own understanding is that until you have accessed Zhenyi, your practice can't be considered as Xiantian.

That was given to me as an oral teaching, but perhaps I got it wrong, so I'm willing to consider other options.

 

houtian in a conscious level can be referred to as anything the mind does after it begins to formulate experience in the world.

So that means from the moment of birth, the body and mind will be in the houtian sphere of things.

Xiantian means anything that happens before birth, so at conception, and when the child is developing in the womb will be xiantian.

 

In that case, if we practice to develop the embryonic state in meditation, we are working on returning to the xiantian state from the hou tian state,

but when we direct the mind toward the xiantian, it does not mean that we have achieved it yet.

That is why I say that beginner level practice is not entirely xiantian, even if we are practicing dan dao.

 

I'm not talking about qigong here, which is something that i don't frequently practice.

Qigong is an entirely post heaven practice and is determined as such because it is predicated on movement.

The qigong idea of xiao da zhoutian and the Daoist idea are totally different for so many reasons.

 

Anyway, I'm just in the middle of tasting this year's Taiwan Li Shan wulong, so I'll have to cut it short here and wait for your reply.