Aaron

What are the moderators doing?

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If good content is being lost by Pitting threads then what should be happening is Splitting and Pitting which preserves the meaningful bit.

 

Warnings either on thread or by PM (or both) are essential because we want to create a culture of self-moderation ... and some people just need a message to cool off a bit.

 

Deliberate hijacking, derailing or talking out a thread that someone objects to should not be allowed - but people do need to report it. Just because a mod has posted as a normal member on the thread doesn't mean anything.

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The "dropping the ball" on modding happens for a number of reasons. Many times because there is disagreement among mods as to whether a post has violated ToS at all. There's a big concern of becoming heavy-handed and ending up censoring even if in the beginning the intent is meant well.

 

The style of modding has evolved the way it has because of Sean's default position. He's the kind of guy whom waits for 100% agreement in modding disputes before moving to take action. This is even the case when by rights he could over-rule the deliberation simply because he's the owner of the board. He himself will wait for 100% agreement before acting. He permits a lot of things on this board to stay posted that many members here would rather see pitted or the poster suspended.

 

He once told me personally - when I got into a debate with him - that a lot of calls on the boards to suspend or pit other posts/posters is because 'our hearts are not big enough' (those were his exact words to me) to let people simply be and post and yet we ourselves remain unruffled. This is part of the growth we ourselves need to do at Taobums. Or so his arguments with me all pointed to. For example: he's permitted many threads to stay that others found to be anti-gay and anti-female.

 

 

Until you understand the position of 'growing our hearts' that Sean intends for all board participants the modding at Taobums will always seem erratic and strange and preferential.

 

 

To permit bigotry in the name of 'growing our hearts' just gives bigots cause to further their hate filled agenda.

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Hmmm, I recall when I posted in thread a lot, or PM sometimes, asking folks to edit, or asking folks to calm down and such. I was told I was overdoing it and too heavy handed though ;). Also that method left room for mod trashing, which not all mods really want to put up with. Then more recently from what I understand lighter moderation is being tried (though with outright violations of the ToS such as insulting gay folks and such, just get pitted).

 

Judging by the mod burnout rate, I'm figuring it isn't the easiest job, and also we are displeased with how mods are doing things complaints have been as old as the board from what I have seen.

 

The best solution for now I figure is, help them out and report stuff as you guys see it, since even when I was being over ambitious and was a mod with more free time, I didn't read even half the posts in some threads, and didn't read some at all.

 

The request though seems to be, "please let folks now in thread and/or PM when they are stepping out of line".

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Just because a mod has posted as a normal member on the thread doesn't mean anything.

 

Is this a general comment or specifically to an example which was raised [by me] here?

 

If the former, I don't disagree that if a mod is posting as contributing of the discussion...

 

If the latter, then I disagree as the mod posted twice as a mod; warning posters.

 

I agree with your other points.

 

The "dropping the ball" on modding happens for a number of reasons. Many times because there is disagreement among mods as to whether a post has violated ToS at all. There's a big concern of becoming heavy-handed and ending up censoring even if in the beginning the intent is meant well.

 

The style of modding has evolved the way it has because of Sean's default position. He's the kind of guy whom waits for 100% agreement in modding disputes before moving to take action. This is even the case when by rights he could over-rule the deliberation simply because he's the owner of the board. He himself will wait for 100% agreement before acting. He permits a lot of things on this board to stay posted that many members here would rather see pitted or the poster suspended.

 

He once told me personally - when I got into a debate with him - that a lot of calls on the boards to suspend or pit other posts/posters is because 'our hearts are not big enough' (those were his exact words to me) to let people simply be and post and yet we ourselves remain unruffled. This is part of the growth we ourselves need to do at Taobums. Or so his arguments with me all pointed to. For example: he's permitted many threads to stay that others found to be anti-gay and anti-female.

 

 

Until you understand the position of 'growing our hearts' that Sean intends for all board participants the modding at Taobums will always seem erratic and strange and preferential.

 

I do appreciate what you share here but it is simply defending a position instead of looking at the issue at hand.

 

Even the supreme court knows you cannot get 100% agreement...

 

And it is much easier to sit in a cave and open our hearts than in normal life activities, yes?

 

Let's take an example: In the last two years (arbitrarily chosen), How many threads has Sean started and seen derailed with BS and end up in the Pit?

 

The moral of the story is: It is easier to embrace all mankind by staying away from mankind (ie: posting here). So we are not really comparing apples and apples, IMO.

 

Now, I would agree that not posting is easier to help people achieve open hearts... what is posited here is that one should learn to post and achieve this. That makes the TTB much more akin to therapy. I guess in this day and age, with all the pent up energy people have, TTB becomes the place to 'let it all out' at the expense of what is otherwise not done in their real-life.

 

Go to your work, the store, the church, a concert... Why is it that people have not grown an open heart during those normal life events which consume the greater part of their day and life? Their hearts are closing down in normal life... so the solution is they can come to the TTB and get therapy to open it again, but letting it all go...

 

I like what the standup comedian Ron White says,"You can't change stupid"... and TTB therapy isn't going to change it either. Forest Gump was right too: Stupid is as stupid does.

 

I don't look at it as open or closed heart... just stupidity at work. It's much deeper than the heart and drives to the core of the individual... because 'individual' is stuck in its mode...

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To permit bigotry in the name of 'growing our hearts' just gives bigots cause to further their hate filled agenda.

 

 

Then you need to argue this with Sean himself or else just take action to find another board to participate at regularly. He got into it with Seth Ananda point by point on one particular thread that it was discussion of opinion/views and not specifically promoting an anti-gay agenda by certain posters as Seth Ananda claimed. It was a thread as I recall you also posted needed to have the posters warned and suspended. He point by point said the points mentioned did not violate the ToS and as such there was no ground for Mod or Admin action. He did the same when a huge dispute broke out among mods as to whether sexist posts are permitted at TTB and whether there had been a violation of the ToS. Again...he went over it with the mods...point by point in each thread - that the assorted issues pointed out as being sexist positions were in fact NOT such at all and were rather debating a position. To take action was to be in favor of censorship.

 

There is the one thing I learned as a mod very well and that is that Sean is extremely anti-censorship. He goes to very, very great lengths to avoid it. He would rather every reader learn self-governance/self-realization than depend upon outside circumstances to govern our reactions to a poster and/or posts.

 

 

 

Is this a general comment or specifically to an example which was raised [by me] here?

 

If the former, I don't disagree that if a mod is posting as contributing of the discussion...

 

If the latter, then I disagree as the mod posted twice as a mod; warning posters.

 

I agree with your other points.

 

 

I do appreciate what you share here but it is simply defending a position instead of looking at the issue at hand.

 

Even the supreme court knows you cannot get 100% agreement...

 

And it is much easier to sit in a cave and open our hearts than in normal life activities, yes?

 

Let's take an example: In the last two years (arbitrarily chosen), How many threads has Sean started and seen derailed with BS and end up in the Pit?

 

The moral of the story is: It is easier to embrace all mankind by staying away from mankind (ie: posting here). So we are not really comparing apples and apples, IMO.

 

Now, I would agree that not posting is easier to help people achieve open hearts... what is posited here is that one should learn to post and achieve this. That makes the TTB much more akin to therapy. I guess in this day and age, with all the pent up energy people have, TTB becomes the place to 'let it all out' at the expense of what is otherwise not done in their real-life.

 

Go to your work, the store, the church, a concert... Why is it that people have not grown an open heart during those normal life events which consume the greater part of their day and life? Their hearts are closing down in normal life... so the solution is they can come to the TTB and get therapy to open it again, but letting it all go...

 

I like what the standup comedian Ron White says,"You can't change stupid"... and TTB therapy isn't going to change it either. Forest Gump was right too: Stupid is as stupid does.

 

I don't look at it as open or closed heart... just stupidity at work. It's much deeper than the heart and drives to the core of the individual... because 'individual' is stuck in its mode...

 

 

 

I've only been trying to explain why so many people see the modding at TTB as erratic and strange. Originally Sean didn't see the need for Mods at all. Those were the days of the Wild West at TTB. Maybe we should go back to that.

 

 

I'm gonna bow out of this thread. Modding for me at least was a thankless job (unlike cat I never got any 'thank you' emails).

 

 

I wish everyone well.

 

And here's something else. I've started a thread in my own PPF on Aaron's subject of whether the West is Fascist or not. I invite you to it if you'd like to discuss it. At the very least it will relieve the mods of having to pick and choose. And for sure you'd know where the buck stopped in a PPF.

 

 

Cheers to everyone. :)

Edited by JustARandomPanda

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Yet, I think we need to tolerate bigots/prejudiced people, cause we can be bigots ourselves. I am. At times.

 

That doesn't mean you don't post your truth to counter them. In some ways the bigot is someone standing up for a cause you don't believe in. I agree with Seans sentiment. Leading with the heart, giving mods discretion, trusting there judgement while knowing they'll get it wrong sometimes.

 

On the third hand, when an online argument heats up. I try (often unsuccessfully) to give it space. If you've posted your truth you don't need a multi day tit for tat. Give a day or two, read when calm.

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I've only been trying to explain why so many people see the modding at TTB as erratic and strange. Originally Sean didn't see the need for Mods at all. Those were the days of the Wild West at TTB. Maybe we should go back to that.

 

 

I'm gonna bow out of this thread. Modding for me at least was a thankless job (unlike cat I never got any 'thank you' emails).

 

I get it.. and instead of emailing, I'll just say here: Thank you for the honest exchange.

 

I personally have no interest in Aaron's thread which got pitted... that is why I have not posted in that.

 

I have an interest in what he raises HERE about threads ending up in the pit... that is why I am posting here... for the greater good of threads. :)

 

Thanks again.

 

Yet, I think we need to tolerate bigots/prejudiced people, cause we can be bigots ourselves. I am. At times.

 

That doesn't mean you don't post your truth to counter them.

 

You have a valid point of view... one of tolerance applies in life, not just at TTB.

 

And the idea to 'post your truth' is a catch-22 as it can feed the BS. I personally don't see any reason to counter BS, however honest, in most cases.

 

I recently saw a thread where a poster who normally likes to rock the boat had posted twice and nobody responded to either one... and the thread moved on... and that was the end of that poster's BS.

 

Sometimes, it is like watching a sports game: the first shove is sometimes not the cause of intervention as much as the counter-shove... And the second guy often gets the higher foul... Problem is, this is called 'baiting' and is sometimes a worse offense.

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I recently saw a thread where a poster who normally likes to rock the boat had posted twice and nobody responded to either one... and the thread moved on... and that was the end of that poster's BS.

 

This reminds me of what I said here:

 

As for what I said about a little editing, if someone comments in a way that leads to a serious loss of the topic, one can go to ones own comments, post a reference to the most intelligent 'on topic' post after yours and to your own response to that. In that way one can skirt around some of the borderline 'nutcases' who sometimes derail otherwise interesting topics and so can readers who are interested in following the discussion, at the same time legitimate criticism can also be maintained and people can have a chance to read it for themselves. Since what the 'nutcases' want most is attention, when they don't get it and see that they are being worked around, maybe they will let it drop, if they continue, then maybe the Mods should step in.

 

A little ignoring goes a long way too.

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I get it.. and instead of emailing, I'll just say here: Thank you for the honest exchange.

 

I personally have no interest in Aaron's thread which got pitted... that is why I have not posted in that.

 

I have an interest in what he raises HERE about threads ending up in the pit... that is why I am posting here... for the greater good of threads. :)

 

Thanks again.

 

 

You have a valid point of view... one of tolerance applies in life, not just at TTB.

 

And the idea to 'post your truth' is a catch-22 as it can feed the BS. I personally don't see any reason to counter BS, however honest, in most cases.

 

I recently saw a thread where a poster who normally likes to rock the boat had posted twice and nobody responded to either one... and the thread moved on... and that was the end of that poster's BS.

 

Sometimes, it is like watching a sports game: the first shove is sometimes not the cause of intervention as much as the counter-shove... And the second guy often gets the higher foul... Problem is, this is called 'baiting' and is sometimes a worse offense.

 

The power of ignore is awesome!

The fuel of ignore is willpower...

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So now the Jesus thread is locked and in the Pit ... why because a long sustained dialogue about hungry ghosts and allah and satan. In other words because some people obsessively repeat the same thing again and again the rest of us can't discuss anything and the moderation team just passively let it drop to the bottom and sink without a trace. Split and Pit ... learn how to do it please.

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The title of that thread alone could have started a flame war, this time it was something else

It should stay in the pit as it is

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The title of that thread alone could have started a flame war, this time it was something else

It should stay in the pit as it is

 

There is a sustained and learned debate in academia and on the internet about whether Jesus was a historical character. there is no reason for us not to discuss it ... there is no need for a flame war unless certain people want one. Its easy ... its not about on topic off topic its about interesting discussion versus bickering ... split the bickering into the Pit not the whole thing ... please.

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I thought that the posts I've split got lost in the limbo forever but the thread's location just set to the time the first post was made and the thread was on the second page

It's back in the name of social science

 

What are moderators doing indeeeeeeeed

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Don't worry Protector, there is a place on the board where deleted things end up if they accidentally get deleted :). Not that I've ever had to go there to retrieve something before during a thread split and pit or anything *cough* *cough*.

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So now the Jesus thread is locked and in the Pit ... why because a long sustained dialogue about hungry ghosts and allah and satan. In other words because some people obsessively repeat the same thing again and again the rest of us can't discuss anything and the moderation team just passively let it drop to the bottom and sink without a trace. Split and Pit ... learn how to do it please.

 

Wow, perfect example of this infuriating theme...

 

Another great academic topic, taken hostage by an intentional swarm of repetitive inflammatory replies until the topic is pitted then even locked. I wonder where the thread could have gone had it not been ransacked and some of the truly learned folks of the community got a chance to log in and add their breath to the garden... no more garden, just fungus and dark-pit-lockedness.

 

This is intentional, aggressive and damaging to the atmosphere.

And man I'm pissy about it... time for me to breathe it out.

 

Lame and Weak!

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I missed the Wolf post(s) in question, perhaps because I rarely read rants of any flavor, so I assume the subsequent mod actions were appropriate.

My comment, though, would be this:

Forced behavior rarely leads to a healthy outcome, whether it takes the shape of suppression or compulsion. It represses honest emotion and squelches the marketplace of ideas.

And remember that the thought-police need not be the ones actually wearing the badges...

 

 

EDIT: Changed "mid" typo to "mod" in the first sentence.

Edited by Brian
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Bigotry is a form of bullying and should not be tolerated. Either have rules that work or just let TTB become known for allowing hate speech. That is not censorship, controlling others thoughts or what Brian refers to as "forced behavior." It is simply the way civilized adults should behave themselves.

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So...

 

Merriam-Webster says a bigot is a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. It is clear from your posts that you strongly (and I would argue unfairly) dislike conservatives, Republicans and members of the Tea Party. You are therefore a bigot and your bigotry should not be tolerated? I disagree. I think your bigotry should be tolerated and I oppose any efforts to have you disciplined or banned for your "hate speech," regardless of how finely it is parsed.

 

My point is that your position sounds reasonable until an attempt is made to put it into effect, and then annoying little questions like "who defines 'hate speech' and who makes the rules?" crop up. In our current case, Sean makes the rules.

 

;)

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Bigotry of mind is a personal thing and affects the individual.

 

Bigotry of speech is opinion and is an emotional territorial claim, usually stated as fact and affects those who choose to listen and engage.

 

Bigotry in action is the seed ground of war and affects others against their will, or without consent.

 

Where do I engage and stop it? When it becomes abusive.

Who defines that? The same I that has the experience. (illusory)

 

Much like porn, hard to define, but easily recognizable.

 

Reminded myself this morning that the world isn't about me, and that the Tao treats all impartially.

These words on a computer, wield the power I send them and no more.

The sun shines on the healer and the murderer equally.

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An aside... Brian, I'm getting a kick out of your avatar & name reference every time I see it. :)
photo-thumb-54451.jpg

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:)

 

I think that movie works on so many levels -- a bright bunch of fellows. I briefly used the Family Guy avatar as a joke but this one resonates with me...

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i happened to take a long weekend , the university had fall break, i came back a day early to check in on ttb's,

more to catch up on than i expected.

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