Steven King

Mantak Chia - Looking For A Clear Picture

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6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Many of the most powerful teachers I`ve met have also had glaring personality flaws of various sorts.  It`s easy to point out the flaws and say ....this person is so low, how can you possibly learn from this person?  And yet, they have a lot to teach.  

 

People are free to feel contemptuous of Mantak Chia for his slickly produced books, his money and popularity seeking motivation, his dubious sexual practices ... and so on.  If those things are deal breakers for you, then don`t study with him.  Doesn`t mean the guy doesn`t have powerful chi. 

 

This is good too.  In fact he gave me some good advice, which was really good, which went along the lines of "learn from another teacher first".  I think this may have been a case of predestiny or guided destiny,  so perhaps he helps some people who have somewhere to go and his books sometimes hurt ones who are and will remain lost in any case.

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I think we sometimes focus too much on the teacher, it allows us to absolve ourselves of responsibility.

The teacher is simply a person occupying a role in our lives.

We give them that role, that responsibility.

Then we either fall in love or criticize them for our successes and failures, or those of others.

 

It is up to us to take responsibility for our choice of teachers and systems, our training, our progress, even when it appears that someone else is responsible, like a teacher, a politician, or a doctor. 

 

A great piece of wisdom from the tradition I follow:

The superior practitioner takes full responsibility for everything that occurs in her life - 100%.

The mediocre practitioner takes partial responsibility.

The inferior practitioner blames everyone but himself.

 

PS - I have no vested interest here, never studied with Chia or read any of his books

 

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6 minutes ago, steve said:

I think we sometimes focus too much on the teacher, it allows us to absolve ourselves of responsibility.

The teacher is simply a person occupying a role in our lives.

We give them that role, that responsibility.

Then we either fall in love or criticize them for our successes and failures, or those of others.

 

It is up to us to take responsibility for our choice of teachers and systems, our training, our progress, even when it appears that someone else is responsible, like a teacher, a politician, or a doctor. 

 

A great piece of wisdom from the tradition I follow:

The superior practitioner takes full responsibility for everything that occurs in her life - 100%.

 

Full responsibility for abuse suffered, for the devastation to self and family from war, for destruction of home and family from natural disasters? 

 

6 minutes ago, steve said:

The mediocre practitioner takes partial responsibility.

The inferior practitioner blames everyone but himself.

 

PS - I have no vested interest here, never studied with Chia or read any of his books

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Full responsibility for abuse suffered, for the devastation to self and family from war, for destruction of home and family from natural disasters? 

Full responsibility for how I react, over time, to those traumatic events? 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, GSmaster said:

You have no idea who I am. And I have no desire to speak about this over internet.

When I came here it was out of kindness and limitless compassion, because nobody whom I know ever come to such places.

When I spoke of him as bottom food chain teacher, I gave him Face.

 

 

Actually I kinda do.  Your writing exposes many sides of you.

 

Here's an exercise for you.  Re-read your writings as if someone else wrote them.  Would they come off as pompous self agrandizing?  If I wrote to you, that I'm writing this reply to teach you something very important that you need out of my 'kindness and limitless compassion'  wouldn't you think I was bit stuck up, that I thought my farts smelled like roses? 

 

That's how you often come off here, sometimes.

 

Getting back on subject I'd say while Chia has been accused of plagiarism, and that his books (12+) are a bit 'pop' culture Daoism practices, that as an introduction they're worthwhile.  Probably better as a source to move on from but they're not without value, introducing and presenting many of the major exercises done in esoteric systems. 

 

I'd say that such things are best learned with a live teacher, but they're not always around.  Without such a resource, I think a person could do worse then using Chia to familiarize themselves with basic concepts and exercises.  With a few caveats and cautions with regards to his earliest 'sexuality' exercises, maybe packing as well.  

 

GSMaster,  you focus on tightening the butt, but could you explain Chia's system of Fusion of the 5 Elements and contrast it with your own thoughts?  I doubt you would or could.  but I'd welcome it.  My thinking is you got to 'tighten the butt' and your mind stopped there. 

Edited by thelerner
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3 hours ago, thelerner said:

 few caveats and cautions with regards to his earliest 'sexuality' exercises, maybe packing as well.  

Yes, avoid these. 😁 

The result can be..... painful. 

Don't ask....... 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, thelerner said:

... Fusion of the 5 Elements ...

 

The 7 serpents explains 3 cauldron alchemy basics, he says he is from Maoshan line ... but interestingly in his clip, at 9.15 he actually explains fusion meditation ... ;)

 

 

Edited by Jox
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8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Full responsibility for abuse suffered, for the devastation to self and family from war, for destruction of home and family from natural disasters? 

 

Yes

Best to start working with this under more manageable conditions at first.

We tend to jump to extreme examples and challenge this principle as it does seem a bit outrageous at first blush.

It takes quite a bit of stability and realization to apply our spiritual skills and learning to such horrific circumstance but yes, even then.

 

The rationale is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how horrible, no matter if they are totally out of our control, all we can ever do is manage our own response as best we can.

We can always try to make the best out of whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.

In that sense we are always fully responsible. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Yes

Best to start working with this under more manageable conditions at first.

We tend to jump to extreme examples and challenge this principle as it does seem a bit outrageous at first blush.

It takes quite a bit of stability and realization to apply our spiritual skills and learning to such horrific circumstance but yes, even then.

 

The rationale is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how horrible, no matter if they are totally out of our control, all we can ever do is manage our own response as best we can.

We can always try to make the best out of whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.

In that sense we are always fully responsible. 

 

Though I wouldn't have questioned statements like "all we can ever do is manage our own response as best we can" and "we can always try to make the best out of whatever circumstances we find ourselves in," I just didn't read your statement in this light.

 

Taking 100% responsibility for everything that occurs in my life makes me think of  taking 100% responsibility for any and all situations I'm part of occurring, responsibility for creating all experiences, maybe it does mean this still, or it doesn't? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bindi
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2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Though I wouldn't have questioned statements like "all we can ever do is manage our own response as best we can" and "we can always try to make the best out of whatever circumstances we find ourselves in," I just didn't read your statement in this light.

 

Taking 100% responsibility for everything that occurs in my life makes me think of  taking 100% responsibility for any and all situations I'm part of occurring, responsibility for creating all experiences, maybe it does mean this still, or it doesn't? 

 

Yes, it does mean precisely that - taking 100% responsibility for everything.

 

This is a very deep teaching from the tradition I follow.

It is not easy, it is not something most people ever achieve in their lifetimes, even dedicated practitioners, but that's what it means.

That's the way we're asked to engage with our practices and our lives.

It's very important to be honest with ourselves about this. In the West, we find it very difficult to look at ourselves as inferior or even mediocre. It's painful and embarrassing. It's not as difficult in the East. If we try to practice at a level we have not reached, we will only be frustrated and fail to make progress. I'm mediocre at best but I'm making progress.

The interesting thing is that the more comfortable I become with this, the more liberated I feel - very counter-intuitive.

 

The first statements you quoted above are a good and comfortable place to start.

 

As we start to push a little further from that comfort zone, we can look at how we play some role in nearly everything that happens to us. If we are victim of a natural disaster, how did we get to the place where it occurred? We chose to visit or live there, for example. If we are mugged, it is a place we chose to visit, and so forth. We can always find an example of how little choice we have in a given circumstance but those extreme examples are best approached once we've made some progress with more accessible situations. We start with easy examples and gradually build our "muscles." It's important to not look at this as blaming oneself. It comes from a different culture with different values. This is related to the concept of karma, not the Abrahamic concept of sin and guilt.

 

To take it a step further, these teachings are from the Dzogchen cycles which are intended to bring us to direct realization of non-duality and to integrate that fully into our lives. Following such a non-dual realization, we directly see and feel that we are not separate and discrete individuals but rather manifestations of a continuum, a wholeness, with a profound connection to everything and everyone around us. That's referred to as the awakened heart. We experience ourselves at a much deeper, more pervasive level. In that context, we truly are 100% responsible for absolutely everything that happens and that realization can be as much a part of daily life as driving to work.

 

I'm just a beginner on this path but I've seen and experienced enough to be convinced that there is deep truth here worth pursuing - for me anyway. It is certainly not for everyone. The way I suggest to work with this is a bit light-hearted and playful. Focus on day to day situations in our lives, there are plenty opportunities there. No need to look for extreme examples. They can wait for now. See how it works for you. If it doesn't feel right, let it go. It's only helpful if it feels right and makes some sense. If it creates conflict or bad feelings inside, I think it is best to leave it alone, especially if you don't have an experience guide to help navigate the tricky parts. 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Yes, it does mean precisely that - taking 100% responsibility for everything.

 

This is a very deep teaching from the tradition I follow.

It is not easy, it is not something most people ever achieve in their lifetimes, even dedicated practitioners, but that's what it means.

That's the way we're asked to engage with our practices and our lives.

It's very important to be honest with ourselves about this. In the West, we find it very difficult to look at ourselves as inferior or even mediocre. It's painful and embarrassing. It's not as difficult in the East. If we try to practice at a level we have not reached, we will only be frustrated and fail to make progress. I'm mediocre at best but I'm making progress.

The interesting thing is that the more comfortable I become with this, the more liberated I feel - very counter-intuitive.

 

The first statements you quoted above are a good and comfortable place to start.

 

As we start to push a little further from that comfort zone, we can look at how we play some role in nearly everything that happens to us. If we are victim of a natural disaster, how did we get to the place where it occurred? We chose to visit or live there, for example. If we are mugged, it is a place we chose to visit, and so forth. We can always find an example of how little choice we have in a given circumstance but those extreme examples are best approached once we've made some progress with more accessible situations. We start with easy examples and gradually build our "muscles." It's important to not look at this as blaming oneself. It comes from a different culture with different values. This is related to the concept of karma, not the Abrahamic concept of sin and guilt.

 

To take it a step further, these teachings are from the Dzogchen cycles which are intended to bring us to direct realization of non-duality and to integrate that fully into our lives. Following such a non-dual realization, we directly see and feel that we are not separate and discrete individuals but rather manifestations of a continuum, a wholeness, with a profound connection to everything and everyone around us. That's referred to as the awakened heart. We experience ourselves at a much deeper, more pervasive level. In that context, we truly are 100% responsible for absolutely everything that happens and that realization can be as much a part of daily life as driving to work.

 

I'm just a beginner on this path but I've seen and experienced enough to be convinced that there is deep truth here worth pursuing - for me anyway. It is certainly not for everyone. The way I suggest to work with this is a bit light-hearted and playful. Focus on day to day situations in our lives, there are plenty opportunities there. No need to look for extreme examples. They can wait for now. See how it works for you. If it doesn't feel right, let it go. It's only helpful if it feels right and makes some sense. If it creates conflict or bad feelings inside, I think it is best to leave it alone, especially if you don't have an experience guide to help navigate the tricky parts. 

 

 

 

 

I can just see how this might be a useful philosophy to follow, though for myself I find it too broad right now, and unnecessarily challenging.

 

I prefer to deal with dysfunction within myself as I come across it, and maybe when all of that is resolved I might understand the truth of ultimate responsibility, or maybe I will find another truth altogether. 

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8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I can just see how this might be a useful philosophy to follow, though for myself I find it too broad right now, and unnecessarily challenging.

 

I prefer to deal with dysfunction within myself as I come across it, and maybe when all of that is resolved I might understand the truth of ultimate responsibility, or maybe I will find another truth altogether. 

 

I think your priorities are in the right place.

I also think your approach is already building a relationship with this idea.

One last thing about it, for me it takes the form of a practical instruction more than a philosophy.

I think there is a difference there.

 

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9 hours ago, steve said:

 

Yes, it does mean precisely that - taking 100% responsibility for everything.

 

This is a very deep teaching from the tradition I follow.

It is not easy, it is not something most people ever achieve in their lifetimes, even dedicated practitioners, but that's what it means.

 

This deserves its own thread please. Can you please copy and paste these last posts to start a new thread?

 

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17 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Yes, avoid these. 😁 

The result can be..... painful. 

Don't ask....... 


Makes me want to ask to be honest ...

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This is from "The Art of the Bed Chamber" by Douglas Wile.  (I wish I knew how to do screen shots or directly quote pages in here then having to copy and pasting but I don't know how to, perhaps one day someone will teach me).  This book is fantastic NOT just for Chinese sexual yoga but meditation and cultivation in general, and if sexual energy practice is your thing (as it is mine) this book can be a touchstone for you that allows you to have a place to examine disparate sources compare and contrast them and find the wheat in the chaff so to speak.  Get this book.

 

"Mantak Chia’s impact on the importation of Chinese sexual yoga into the West goes well beyond the two books, Taoist Secrets of Love and Cultivating Female Sexual Energy, which I propose to review. No one to date has published such a detailed system of Taoist sexual yoga or personally propagated it so widely (TheLerner, you hearing your echo here my friend? :)) Chia‘s stance is one of a modern day master who addresses his readers as potential disciples. Because the pair of books represents two sides of the same coin, and much of the information in the first is duplicated in the second, I will treat them as one in my discussion. In the introduction to his first book, Chia tells us that his teachings are a synthesis of practices he learned from four masters in Thailand and Hong Kong. Although his teachings accord in the main with those found in the present anthology, Chia’s books show no evidence of his having studied the ancient texts in the original. The only title ever mentioned is the Classic of Su Nu. which is quoted at the head of various chapters. but invariably from the lshihara and Levy translation, and one passage containing a gross error is quoted in both books. All Of this by way of speculation that what he offers seems largely to be the product of oral transmission and in fact contains much Of value not found as such in any of the published documents in this collection.

 

Judged against the background of the present anthology, Chia borrows broadly but selectively from traditional teachings, making an important contribution to adapting these to the modern social and scientific setting. For example, the concept of mutual absorption, which plays a minor role in the tradition, becomes the centerpiece of Chia’s system. Chia ensures a balanced trade partnership by requiring that both practitioners be schooled in the techniques of microcosmic orbit meditation and absorption of sexual energy. Introducing Western notions of love and monogamy makes his message more palatable to modern couples, but his strict construction of coitus reservatus and suspension of menses proves that he is not merely watering the potion for the current marketplace. As radical as Chia’s message is in regard to ejaculation for procreation only, the pleasure principle and romantic love have by no means been banished from his system. By accentuating the healing properties of pleasure still apparent in the early classical texts and combining this with the later phases of sexual alchemy, he promises unimaginable ecstasies far surpassing exoteric orgasm. Chia seems willing to allow his students to focus on the immediacy of pleasurable sensation and, by enforcing a strict code of nonejaculation, trusts the health benefits to follow as a matter of course.

 

Although Chia‘s conclusions regarding the role of sex in spiritual practice spring directly from Chinese roots, he also is the product of cross-cultural influences and uses Western scientific theories exten ively to support and even to express his own teachings. Chinese and Western medical models are woven so tightly together in his system that acupuncture points and endocrine glands constantly jostle each other in the same sentence. Purists might protest his eclecticism, and scholars might find some loose ends in his synthesis, but most readers will sense that Chia is simply availing himself of an expanding palate of language to communicate authentic experience. However. although borrowing freely from Western physiology for his own purposes. Chia is not impressed with modern sex therapy's emphasis on orgasm or techniques like Karezza that build heat and tension in the prostate without teaching the upward cycling of sexual energy.

 

Like many observers of the West, Chia finds that sexuality is the chief obsession of our culture, but comes to the original conclusion that because of this perhaps only sex itself can serve as a vehicle for the spiritual awakening of the masses. To attempt another path in such a sexually charged culture, he fears, can only lead to repression and all of its distortions of personality and society.

 

(This is the crux of Chia for me and Chinese Sexual Yoga in general and why it works so well as a path for me personally.  I was a sex obsessed porn addict for years and years and it burnt out my Jing and kept me from ever starting a path of cultivation until I got it under control.  Oh I had read lots of books and lurked on here for years, but never practiced until I got my sexual energy under control and harnessed it for something good.  Now I think of all that time and energy wasted, the hours of looking at porn and the massive Jing loss of it...but this  here and now and all there is, I rejoice that I'm here and free now! Take home message you can too if you are caught in the throes of online and in person sexual obsession, there are ways out, but  no one can tell you yours, or when the time is ripe for you to strike out on it).

 

The advanced stages of Chia’s system, again following traditional lines, demonstrate that sex may not be the ultimate experience of the union of yin and yang, but it is the safest and surest place to start. Chia‘s writings throw considerable light on the critical process of “refining the ching into ch'i and the ch 'i into spirit.” Arguing that the ch'i available from food and air is too gross to be absorb able in large amounts, we must turn to ching, a more highly refined and concentrated source of ch ’i simply waiting to be transmuted through sexual alchemy. His belief that ching energy is the fuel of creativity. spirituality, and even kindness and compassion is reminiscent of the classical Western conception Of eros. If conserved, he says, the yang fire in the ching burns up negativity, whereas ching loss engenders physical lassitude and dries up the very “will to enlightenment.” Giving an egalitarian twist to the tradition, he states that a law of sexual practices prevents one from absorbing the partner‘s power without giving freely of one‘s own. Chia‘s concept of “Valley Orgasm" or “Beyond Orgasm,” though perhaps implied in some traditional texts, is elaborated in great detail in his two books. He says: “No technique can guarantee it will happen. . . . It is a state of prolonged orgasm that generally occurs during the plateau phase when yin and yang energies come into an exquisitely delicate balance. It is a fusion of opposites, a melt down. . . . The valley orgasm actually is a fusion of Ching, Chi and Shen in the two lovers.”

 

Dismissing genital orgasm as merely “itch relief,” he emphasizes the necessity of properly channeling sexual energy, for once aroused it can travel either up or down, but travel it must. The process of channeling this energy requires mastery of two techniques: the “Big Draw,” or puboccoccygeal pump; and “microcosmic orbit meditation” to circulate the energy and share it with the glands, organs, and finally the brain. One feels simultaneously satisfied and revitalized after releasing the sexual energy from the semen. As the “Valley Orgasm" rises from the lower tan-t‘ien to engulf the middle and upper tan-t'ien, it permeates all the organs and fuses ching, ch 'i, and spirit.

(This was a major key for me, the sexual energy I create through meditation, cultivation, and stimulation exercises and the constant tidal sexual feelings we all get and that "controls" us throughout the day can be harnessed anytime, anywhere by simple activation of your PC muscle and Mula Bandha and funneled upward to rejuvenate your whole neuro endocrine system).

 

Finally Chia offers a glimpse of what in the present anthology is called, “intercourse of the spirit without physical contact,” and beyond this, cessation of semen production and direct absorption of cosmic energy. This breatharian state also is in keeping with traditional teachings and considered the next thing to immortality."

 

Much love my friends and blessings on your path. Hope this helps to show that though Chia is flawed as so many others pointed out, if you use him as a base and include other sources you can find much of great value in his teachings.

 

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15 hours ago, steve said:

This is a very deep teaching from the tradition I follow.

May you share which tradition do you follow? :)

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Posted (edited)

The bed chamber arts are  a side door (error) and nothing to do with dual cultivation.

 

The great earth, mountains and river are all familiar; everywhere is one’s home, fields and gardens. One is travelling, enjoying the sights, and sojourning anywhere. At the time of retrieving and entering stabilization after coming back, when the Yang Spirit also takes the material body, the body with form, as its bedchamber, room, and house, then you know there is a true ‘You’ inside this body, and that all the others are fake.  Let the resident return, let the infant return into the interior courtyard and the central palace, i.e. the Cinnabar Field.  

 

Making the error of vitality as sexual energy is the worst mistake and this teaching has caused much harm leading to the wrong path, crooked side roads and side doors. The student becomes lost and not able to return to the true home (insert sad face)

 

On the up side sex sells, If we would like commercial success, misleading others for profit sex sells. Many techniques mentioned in Chia seeds books are  from authentic lineages that are not interested in bastardizing the methods or providing no guidance,no direct transmissions from masters that have authenticated each step of the way.

Edited by Wu Ming Jen

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10 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

This deserves its own thread please. Can you please copy and paste these last posts to start a new thread?

 

 

Done

 

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5 hours ago, Jox said:

May you share which tradition do you follow? :)

 

Yungdrung Bön

 

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In my opinion, there's nothing to blame if you consider M. Chia 's teachings to be worthless and dangerous. 

The fault resides in thinking that other teachers are superior. 

 

 

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Great advice there Trunk. I spent the first 2.5 years of my training focusing on basic fitness (especially CORE development which I think is essential to opening, releasing, and unleashing your tan tian), chi Kung, lots and lots of horse stance with empty mind and mild focus on deep tan tian breathing. I then slowly have moved into IMA, pa kua chang and Xingyiquan.  The time seemed ripe and I “discovered” sexual energy was the power source behind chi development so I’ve been experimenting. Chia being the most popular and widespread sources but always contrasting and comparing, slowly feeling things out but not too scared to poke in the weeds a bit, outside the well traversed safe path. You and some of the other veterans here have travelled all over the forest and us wet behind the ears cub scouts love your words of wisdom and salty dog tales, but I just don’t want everyone to be too frightened to explore and blaze trails that honor the old, embrace the new, and create something that is personal and works for them. When the map says “there be dragons here” sometimes and some people just have to see it for themselves. And of course only with great risk, come great rewards. Much love to all and thank you for helping to creat Tao bums because truly there is no other place like it and I value it greatly. 

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