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Vmarco

Considerate Christian Women Abort

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Really interesting topic, but the emphasis on the Biblical may turn some off. I too was brought up biblically with fire and brimstone in the background.

 

I've had two abortions, and I prefer to think that there is not some fiery hell that I will be cast into. But before people get all down on abortion, they should look more closely into it.

 

First of all, when you're 16 and your folks beat the crap out of you on a regular basis, as they did me, and you get pregnant......telling my folks about it wasn't an option to me. I had to have an abortion, was my thinking at the time. It was illegal, as this was 50 years ago. So I found someone who knew someone in Juarez Mexico (I was living in L.A.), and for the price of $500 this man drove up from Juarez to do an abortion on my kitchen table. Unfortunately, the sodium pentathol he had brought didn't work on me for some reason, so I had the abortion done with a sponge in my teeth for the pain. I cannot begin to describe the experience.

 

I had another at a later point in life, when it was legal. It was done in a nice clinic, antiseptic setting - the difference can't even be described.

 

But getting back to your initial thoughts, my view now is that the Tao sees us all as straw dogs; whose life gets cut short doesn't really matter, at some big cosmic level, or at least that's how I read it. Yes, I've had to reckon with my abortions within the inner work that I have done, as I've done extensive searching within myself to get down to the Essence.

 

As to the concept of going to a heaven or hell as a result of my abortions, that's a concept I left behind a long time ago. This here on earth can be hell, if we let it. It can also be heaven. I think fundamentalism Christianity is often overgrown kids who've never learned to use their own brains, and simplistically quote bible passages so they feel smug in their often very selfish attitudes.

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It has always struck me as odd how those calling themselves Fundamentalist Christians love to quote the Old Testament and more or less ignore the New. Its so easy to label and condemn people instead of forgive. Jesus always seemed to find an answer to these questions which did not involve damning people but actually saved them. Often people just do what they have to do in the circumstances given.

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A Taoist women would do what she feels is natural. I wonder is it more natural too live or too die? :glare:

 

-Not sure, but good food for thought.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited by OldGreen

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At least personally, I think it's very problematic to take one verse out of the Bible and live your life by it. Usually when something is important, it's repeated over and over. For instance: forgiveness. That lesson is even repeated in the OT, not just the New.

 

Some think God created the Bible...I personally think (or know) that men created it, and that it's prone to error. If you feel like there's something to it, it's better to take a big picture view of it, and be more contemplative rather than adhering to beliefs. Be honest with yourself: you haven't spoken to God, you haven't ever seen heaven, etc...it's totally fine to say, "I don't know!" and still try your best. There are many ways to interpret the book.

 

So the idea that a "considerate" Christian woman would abort her child because a verse says that it would go to hell? Stupid.

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It has always struck me as odd how those calling themselves Fundamentalist Christians love to quote the Old Testament and more or less ignore the New. Its so easy to label and condemn people instead of forgive. Jesus always seemed to find an answer to these questions which did not involve damning people but actually saved them. Often people just do what they have to do in the circumstances given.

 

What's really fun is reading the Nag Hammadi gospels (those hidden in a field in Nag Hammadi, Egypt around 1948) where there are so many more words of Jesus written. Jesus focused on individual enlightenment and his discussions were very similar to ours here. The Nag Hammadi gospels were the ones that Constantine didnt want anyone to read because the concept of individual enlightenment certainly wasn't compatible with his "Only Through My Church" way of looking at things. I believe Constantine did what was expedient at the time - and for the purposes of easiest control of the populace. The fundamentalists around where I live thrive on judgment, arrogance, and knowing what's best for everyone else in the world. Inner work to the fundies is totally superfluous, I guess.

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I think fundamentalism is often overgrown kids who've never learned to use their own brains

fixed :lol:

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What's really fun is reading the Nag Hammadi gospels (those hidden in a field in Nag Hammadi, Egypt around 1948) where there are so many more words of Jesus written. Jesus focused on individual enlightenment and his discussions were very similar to ours here. The Nag Hammadi gospels were the ones that Constantine didnt want anyone to read because the concept of individual enlightenment certainly wasn't compatible with his "Only Through My Church" way of looking at things. I believe Constantine did what was expedient at the time - and for the purposes of easiest control of the populace. The fundamentalists around where I live thrive on judgment, arrogance, and knowing what's best for everyone else in the world. Inner work to the fundies is totally superfluous, I guess.

Exactly!

Well said - this is what got all of Anthony DeMello's writings banned as heresy by the present pope while he worked as the official censor for the vatican. The early scriptures were a formula for individual study, enlightenment, and emancipation. Like in the Daoist canon, the writings can be interpreted at multiple levels and often require some expert guidance. Unfortunately, they are also easily misinterpreted and exploited for purposes of control and power as has been the case for millenia. A potential error for cultivators is to discard or overlook potentially valuable resources simply because others misinterpret and abuse them.

 

PS Very sorry to hear about your horrific abortion experience.

What a terrible thing. You never cease to amaze me...

:wub:

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"For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does..." 1Corinthians 7:4

 

"For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man." 1 Corinthians, 11:8

 

Origen: “What is seen with the eyes of the creator is masculine and not feminine, for God does not stoop to look upon what is feminine and of the flesh.”

 

Tertullian: Woman “you are the devil’s gateway, you are the first deserter of the divine law, you destroyed so easily God’s image: man.”

 

Cyril of Alexandria wrote of why Mary Magdalene did not recognize Jesus when she first saw him after the resurrection: “Somehow the woman or rather the female sex as a whole is slow in comprehension.”

 

John Chrysostom: “What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil nature, painted with fair colors?”

 

Augustine: “I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man, if one excludes procreation. If the woman is not given to man to bear children, for what help could she be? And also, “For woman is not the image of God. Man alone is the image of God.”

 

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent" Timothy 2:11

Lol, the funny thing is how such a sadomasochistic (blood-sacrifice-based), male-dominant religion irresistibly attracts so many devout female followers. Essentially, it verifies their underlying attraction to alpha bad boys and evo-psych instinct to worship apex power animals at the top of the food chain (like Yahweh).
In modern Western cultures, religion has been a predominantly female sphere. In nearly every sect and denomination of Christianity, though men monopolized the positions of authority, women had the superior numbers.” Christianity is a religion of and for women.

 

Nor do women simply join churches more than men do. They also are more active and loyal. Of Americans in the mid-1990s, George Barna writes that “women are twice as likely to attend a church service during any given week. Women are also 50 percent more likely than men to say they are ‘religious’ and to state that they are ‘absolutely committed’ to the Christian faith.”

 

Patrick Arnold, a Jesuit of liberal theological leanings, claims that at churches he has visited, “it is not at all unusual to find a female-to-male ratio of 2:1 or 3:1. I have seen ratios in parish churches as high as 7:1.”

 

Church attendance in the United States is about 60 percent female and 40 percent male.

 

the only religions that sometimes show a majority of men are Eastern Orthodoxy, Orthodox Judaism, Islam, and Eastern religions such as Buddhism.

 

Wherever Western Christianity has spread, the Church has become feminized. Rosemary Reuther observes: “In Germany, France, Norway, and Ireland women are 60 to 65 percent of the active churchgoers. In Korea, India, and the Philippines, women are 65 to 70 percent of the active churchgoers.”

Only as you move East, do these numbers start to equalize and reverse. Buddhism, a pretty drama-free, impersonal, "nice guy" belief system that facilitates DIY self-liberation - repels most Western women like household chores due to the lack of any tribalism, male domination or apex magic genie.

 

IOW, if there's no all-powerful "Jesus Bieber" apex bad boy at the top to idolize...then women just aren't interested! :lol:

Edited by vortex

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I think women like Christian church because it's social. A lot of us don't have extended family and support systems, anthropologically we should have a whole tribe to back us up with raising children, but in many families mom doesn't have anyone to ask for help. It's sort of a trap, as a single parent I can see why people do it, then once you're in end up believing the whole spiel.

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Lol, the funny thing is how such a sadomasochistic (blood-sacrifice-based), male-dominant religion irresistibly attracts so many devout female followers. Essentially, it verifies their underlying attraction to alpha bad boys and evo-psych instinct to worship apex power animals at the top of the food chain (like Yahweh).Only as you move East, do these numbers start to equalize and reverse. Buddhism, a pretty drama-free, impersonal, "nice guy" belief system that facilitates DIY self-liberation - repels most Western women like household chores due to the lack of any tribalism, male domination or apex magic genie.

 

IOW, if there's no all-powerful "Jesus Bieber" apex bad boy at the top to idolize...then women just aren't interested! :lol:

 

Certainly there is truth to what you are saying, I won't argue that or say you are wrong.

 

However, when it comes to ancient Christianity, there is a little more to it than that. Indeed women were drawn to Christianity in it's early days.

 

Remember, that the world in general, society as a whole, was very sexist towards women 2000 years ago.

 

We know many early Christian texts were cut or banned from the modern Bible. Some texts were omitted because they encouraged celebacy too heavily, more so than the books that were chosen for the modern bible. Celebacy was deemed bad because in order to ensure the noble class continued to procreate the Roman government imposed strict laws that women must marry noble men who want them and must bear children. Teachings which inspired women to become celibate too strongly, and empowered women to be bound to God rather than a slave to a noble Roman man, were banned. Some texts, while they never said one must be celibate, encouraged it along with, and as an enhancement, to feminism and the empowerment of women. This would not be tolerated by those in power within the church and government.

 

So some biblical scholars and historians believe that women came to Christianity at the time, because compared to their other options, it very much empowered them.

 

Either that, or the women realized that compared to God the men of their time were simply AFCs and God was the ultimate AMOG.

 

Edited by Immortal4life

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PS Very sorry to hear about your horrific abortion experience.

What a terrible thing. You never cease to amaze me...

:wub:

 

Thank you, darling. The funny thing is that when a child grows up with violence all around, that's the norm for their whole life, until they bottom out and learn differently! The important thing in my life was the turning point, where down started going up. And it's only because of our adversities that we become the people we are today, with the underlying understanding that we have. I have to be grateful for my horribly violent past because now life is the polar opposite. I merely decided to change my mindset and take responsibility for my actions. Some folks on this forum think in a sarcastic framework, some in a cynical framework. This is always our choice, which mindset to hold. I just now choose to see everything as part of the great continually evolving One.

 

VMarco - someone has gone to an awful lot of trouble to justify dominating their wife, if you ask me, lol. I think that's why any fundamentalist view of any religion is ridiculous - the tomes are usually subject to variations of translation, and the writings of these translators can only be as deep and true as their own spiritual development is at the time. Then any idiot can come along and pick and choose little passages that justify their own personal desires. Cherry picking, sort of like our entrance into Iraq. I think all of the viable world's tomes point to the very same thing at the top of the hill (or, thinking like the sage, is pointing to the moon). It is for us to use our brains, see through the words, and triangulate the essence. One of the best ways that I can see to do this is through study of comparative religions or philosophies.

 

After all, we all seem to have been born with a rather journalistic imprint on our hearts: Who, What, Why, Where, When, How? It seems to be our natural impetus throughout our lives, whether we are in awareness of it or not, is to find the answers to these questions. At some point in time those of us who are lucky align our mental awareness with the subconscious motivation to answer the questions in our hearts. For me, that was when life started getting really good.

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Yes,...isn't that interesting! We need more New Testament stuff.

 

"For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does..." 1Corinthians 7:4

 

"For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man." 1 Corinthians, 11:8

 

 

I am not a christian zelot in anyway but please don't misquote as a mean to twist ideas and serve your purpose.

 

I will only take the first two quotations as examples of what I am talking about but of course it can be done with every quotation in every post you make.

 

1st quotation :

 

"A Husband should fulfill his obligation to his wife, and a wife should do the same for her husband. A wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but his wife does. Do not withhold yourselves from each other unless you agree to do so just for a set time, in order to devote yourselves to prayer. Then you should come together again so that Satan does not tempt you through your lack of self-control. But I say this as a concession, not as a command. I would like everyone to be unmarried, like I am. However, each person has a special gift from God, one this and another that."

 

You can see that the context marriage and specifically the sexual relationships within it. And you can see the reciprocity between husband and wife.

 

2nd quotation:

 

Advice about Head Coverings

 

"Now I want you to realize that the Messiah is the head of every man, and man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of the Messiah. Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head dishonors his head, and every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, which is the same as having her head shaved. So if a woman does not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. If it is a disgrace for a woman to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her own head.

A man should not cover his head, because he exists as God's image and glory. But the woman is man's glory. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; and man was not created for woman, but woman for man.This is why a woman should have authority over her own head: because of the angels.

In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man of woman. For as woman came from man, so man comes through woman. But everything comes from God. Decide for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Nature itself teaches you neither that it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair nor that hair is a woman's glory, for hair is given as a substitute for coverings. But if anyone wants to argue about this, we do not have any custom like this, nor do any of God's churches."

 

The context is "Advice about Head Coverings" not abortion or anything else.

As you can see woman is man's glory in the very same way man is God's glory. The idea one gets is different from what you get by taken a sentence out of context.

 

In another post here I have shown that Vmarco intellectual methods are very very far from being acceptable in terms of consistency and intellectual integrity.

 

By reading digests, or any text superficially; by quoting without considering the context or taking only part of the sentences; you can virtually demonstrate anything you want using everything you want.

 

I am not advocating submission of women ,nor blaming abortion. It is just that women deserve better defense than parroting and mixing up apple and oranges.

Edited by bubbles
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Yes,...isn't that interesting! We need more New Testament stuff.

 

"For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does..." 1Corinthians 7:4

 

"For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man." 1 Corinthians, 11:8

 

Origen: "What is seen with the eyes of the creator is masculine and not feminine, for God does not stoop to look upon what is feminine and of the flesh."

 

Tertullian: Woman "you are the devil's gateway, you are the first deserter of the divine law, you destroyed so easily God's image: man."

 

Cyril of Alexandria wrote of why Mary Magdalene did not recognize Jesus when she first saw him after the resurrection: "Somehow the woman or rather the female sex as a whole is slow in comprehension."

 

John Chrysostom: "What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil nature, painted with fair colors?"

 

Augustine: "I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man, if one excludes procreation. If the woman is not given to man to bear children, for what help could she be? And also, "For woman is not the image of God. Man alone is the image of God."

 

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent" Timothy 2:11

 

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. Matt 11:20-24

 

Jesus curses a fig tree, killing it immediately thereby showing the world how much God Hates Figs. Matt 21:18-20

 

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." Matt 25:41

 

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) Mark 7:9-13

 

Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." Mark 12:46-47

 

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. Mark 15:6

 

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).

 

V

 

Yikes! Maybe you are right. I've never really been a Christian ... though raised in a Christian country (sort of) ... I was just thinking of sermon on the mount and the way jesus dealt with the woman 'taken in adultery' ... but its not my thing really so I will bow to your greater Biblical knowledge.

 

I used to have a red letter bible where you can read just the words of Jesus himself ... most of what he says is 'judge not lest ye be judged' kind of stuff ... but there I go again eh?

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Another interesting statistic...

 

90% of women believe in astrology

 

90% of men do not believe in astrology

 

Does this mean that 10% of men could get together with 90% of women on the basis of their star signs?

 

Whereas the other 90% of men have to pick from the 10% left over?

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood your point. I'm an Aquarian and misunderstand most things.

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Lol, my point was simpler than that.

 

In this thread there have been different theories proposed as to why in some cases women are drawn to certain religious ideas more than men are. For example they seem to like to go to church more than men do.

 

Perhaps in some cases women are just drawn to things they see as spiritual. Maybe they just like the spiritual atmosphere and spiritual teachings they find there.

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Ask the women? :)-_-

 

If this kind of various statistics are correct (dont have opinion if they are or not personally at this moment, I am sleepy :ph34r: ).

My take would be that devotional aspect, spirituality through devotion`as in Christianity and utilising their own emotions as a tool appeals to women as that is what a lot of women feel at home with.

Emotions are as valid as logic when used as a tool for self help.

Budhisam is very masculine system of thought for example(not good or bad again , just is)in the way that employs logic and more sort of penetrative thinking of figuring things out .

This could be one of the reasons.

Edited by suninmyeyes
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Don't ask me, I am the 10%. Not about astrology (some aspects are sort of interesting, but pop astrology seems silly to me), but I am logical and introverted. I offend other women without meaning to and don't pick up on subtle social things. But as the 10%, these stereotypes and statistics can really do people as disservice and I try to get to know people as individuals. I have guy friends who cry and talk talk about their love lives and all their problems. I do not find it helpful to talk about my feelings beyond practical problem solving when I am sad or stressed, if people would leave me the hell alone I would think it thru maybe go walk in the woods a while and then be fine. I remember sitting in church as a teenager thinking that stuff really didn't make sense and couldn't understand why people were so invested in it.

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Ask the women? :)-_-

 

If this kind of various statistics are correct (dont have opinion if they are or not personally at this moment, I am sleepy :ph34r: ).

My take would be that devotional aspect, spirituality through devotion`as in Christianity and utilising their own emotions as a tool appeals to women as that is what a lot of women feel at home with.

Emotions are as valid as logic when used as a tool for self help.

Budhisam is very masculine system of thought for example(not good or bad again , just is)in the way that employs logic and more sort of penetrative thinking of figuring things out .

This could be one of the reasons.

I agree. Christianity offers an emotionally-gripping, soap opera narrative, childish comic book cosmology & the ultimate White Knight! This no-brainer storyline appeals much more strongly to women - than more abstract DIY philosophies that focus on the truly empty nature of the naked truth (can you just see women's eyes rolling and falling asleep already)! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiWPT4vQGOY

"We want a human being, a big daddy, to come along and make everything right for us. And as long as we believe that, we'll always basically get shafted." (10:07)
Anyhow, I would agree that dealing with emotions is very important in healing work. However, I suspect they are also just layers of the onions to be progressively peeled away, like endless thoughts in the mind.. That emotions, like conscious thoughts, tend to further cloud the lens of "self," not clear it. IOW, someone who is very emotionally-driven may become just as deluded and misguided as someone who is too logically stuck in their head. Thus, the higher answer is to transcend this whole duality entirely (somehow, lol). Edited by vortex

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