Enlightenment is a cultural myth?

[ShaktiMama]

Enlightenment is what happened when I realized that I know everything and the rest of you are full of crap.

Peace

it is a burden we all bear

[Dainin]

Anyone notice that our long-winded Buddhist scholar friends haven't been around much lately? I'm surprised they haven't commented on this thread yet!

[ShaktiMama]

[Eternal_Student]

 

When one finally exhausts oneself from chasing after that which one has never lost, and decides

one no longer has the energy to pursue this elusive and illusive thing called Enlightenment, that is

the moment of awakening. It is like waking up to the realization that one has been clutching a

piece of burning ember one's whole life.

 

 

This resonated with me.

 

What if there is no enlightenment? What if there is nothing to do? What if there is no "path" or practice that you MUST complete. What if its all a choice? What if it's in you already and you just forgot?

 

What if you all woke up tomorrow and remembered, oh yeah, I am everything. And nothing.

 

Guess I'd better go poop now...

[mjjbecker]

Perfect silence. To see and know, without preconception or judgement. Hence the reference to 'being'. You lose all sense of 'me' and 'I'. Only 'is' remains.

 

It can't be intellectualised, only experienced. Debates, comparisons and definitions are meaningless.

[Trunk]

[That Guy]

Don't mean to brag here, but I was born enlightened I'd try and explain to you all what real enlightenment is all about, but you just wouldn't understand anyway good luck to the rest of you

[Apech]

You'll probably see later on your path.

 

 

That's a little presumptuous really, I was hoping you would explain your post.

 

 

I tease my students telling them, "so what you gonna do when you are sitting on the big couch of the enlightenment with that remote control in your hand?"

 

 

That's a good question - do they ever answer?

[NeiChuan]

Right now.. Enlightenment isen't a stage or platform..

 

I think its a real gift though - when you understand your in a sense, already there.

[Way]

I suspect that one's concept of Enlightenment, is simply that - a concept. I currently see enlightenment as an ever changing, evolving concept. For me, at this point in time, I see it a continual process of surrender, not in the sense of giving up, but in the sense of being willing to let go. As I see it, as we let go of our inner structures, ideas of who and what we are, the consciousness/energy used in maintaining those structure is released. Perhaps enlightenment could be seen as point where all energy/consciousness has be freed from structures and concepts, even the concept of enlightenment.

 

Way

[ShaktiMama]

That's a little presumptuous really, I was hoping you would explain your post.

That's a good question - do they ever answer?

 

 

I think they do but I have never yet heard an answer yet that makes me go, "Hmmmmm....i should remember that."

[ShaktiMama]

Don't mean to brag here, but I was born enlightened I'd try and explain to you all what real enlightenment is all about, but you just wouldn't understand anyway good luck to the rest of you

 

There are people that agree with you. The natural state of an infant...who lacks the ability to judge, to hate, to ridicule, etc. and those are some of the attributes that are "trained" out of us as we grow up. Fortunate is the one who retains such a natural innocence and accepting view of life into their adulthood. The rest of us have to be retrained in some way.

 

A person who never lost their natural connection and spontaneous integration with the Tao they were born with? Blessed indeed. What would a person be like who has been able to retain that connection?

 

If one believes one is birthed with a naturally enlightened state ...that is considering one has defined the state of and can recognize enlightenment first.

[Apech]

I'm going to try again because I don't think I was understood last time.

 

Is enlightenment a cultural myth?

 

If something is a myth it doesn't mean the same as an untruth. It means s story which we tell ourselves which is not literal. The idea of a myth being an untruth comes from science where they say - 'oh that's a myth' meaning its not true because they attempted to take it literally. In doing this they miss the important information contained in the story.

 

Most religion and all mysticism is full of these stories and their purpose is to illustrate how our beings which are composed of energy (Qi) work and how we relate to reality which can also be seen as energy. I'm just stating this simply to make a point and avoiding the dependent origination view.

 

So what is the point of the cultural myth of enlightenment?

 

As soon as we think of yourselves as being involved in some kind of process or journey it is natural to think in terms of an end, a goal. This is because our journeys on earth have this characteristic. "I'm going to the the shops, I'm going to work" and so on. So we find ourselves thinking in terms of a beginning, middle and end. This is the kind of myth we construct for ourselves to understand what we are doing.

 

If we look from a Taoist point of view for a beginning, middle and end, then the interesting thing we find its this. As the Tao is the origin of the manifest, then everything that is manifest to us has the Tao as its origin. So we can say that the beginning of our journey is the Tao. Both in the sense of cause and starting point. Then if we look at the other end at the result, or end of our journey, we would say that this is a 'return' (as if we ever left) to the Tao. If we look at the journey, well this is the Way, the Tao itself. So beginning, middle and end are not different - Tao.

 

This idea is not unique, it occurs in all don-dualist traditions. For instance in Tantric Buddhism you have the basis, path and its fruition. These are all Buddha-nature. In Christianity God/Jesus says "I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end" - not mentioning that Jesus is also the 'way'.

 

 

So I can agree that enlightenment is a cultural myth in the sense that I have given above. But I would refute the idea that there is no goal at all, in no sense whatsoever. But it is a special kind of goal which is always with us.

[Stigweard]

I'm going to try again because I don't think I was understood last time.

I heard ya

 

In the Toltec tradition it is called "A Tale of Power." Forget the questions surrounding belief or disbelief, ask instead how this tale can inspire us to become more fully aware beings.

 

Some will claim they know.

 

Some will pretend it just isn't there.

 

Some will be filled with endless questions.

 

Only a warrior, through neither believing nor disbelieving, will access the living truth.

 

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

So is enlightenment a myth, cultural or otherwise?

 

A myth nowadays is taken to mean something that is not true. But that's a very modern take on the word based on the running down of a whole way of thinking by the literalists of science and so on. Myth is from the Greek 'mythos' which really means a speech, story or word. So a myth is a story. A special kind of story. The language of myth relates to a kind of understanding which is different to straight forward logic. It is story about powers and the interaction of powers. Properly understood it is an illustration of energy interaction. So when the Greeks talk about Zeus coming down from Mount Olympus as a swan ... or whatever ... they are illustrating the interaction of divine power with the world through their mythology.

 

If we believe, as they believed, that the world is composed of energy or power, a divine play of energy if you like, then these myths are full of potential to reveal to us more and more about the nature of reality. They reveal as much as science can about ourselves and the world but in a very different way.

 

If we are engaged in spiritual work and see ourselves involved in some process of development, some kind of way or journey, then it is natural to think that this journey has an end. One day we will arrive at where we are going. Its natural because that's our experience in everyday life. In the world of matter and time we expend energy moving from point to point. Depending on the cultural nature of the particular way we are involved in we can see the end point in different ways. Nirvana, union with god, immortality and so on... the number of ways that the end point is defined is as many as there are systems. Are they all the same? As expressed no they are not.

 

So in these ways enlightenment is a cultural myth because it is part of the narrative we give ourselves to understand the process we are engaged in. But it is not a myth in the sense of a lie, falsehood or mistake.

 

The reason that the different ways project an end point in this way is that it is important for our understanding, or so I believe. It is possible to achieve states of being along the way which are highly energised, blissful and so on. And this can be done by moving in a certain direction (in a manner of speaking) or working in a certain way. But these states are kind of unidirectional they are not complete. A good way, a good path, develops balance leading to completion. One of the ways it does this is by providing a map on which we can place ourselves. To have a map you need an origin, the origin projects the map. To have an origin presupposes an end. Every alpha has its omega. And the end is enlightenment.

 

In a non-dualist system the alpha, the path and the omega are not different ....

 

Just my thoughts.

 

How dare you be as highly educated as you are! How absolutely dare you! Thou dost offend thine eye!

[rex]

So I can agree that enlightenment is a cultural myth in the sense that I have given above. But I would refute the idea that there is no goal at all, in no sense whatsoever. But it is a special kind of goal which is always with us.

Marvellous! In Buddhist traditions there's the path of the cause, where practitioners seek to realise buddha nature, and the path of result where inherent buddha nature is taken as a self-evident starting point.

 

Coming from a time steeped in myth the Delphic Oracle's injunction of 'Know thyself' fits nicely with one contemporary definition of enlightenment given by Dzigar Kontrul, "Enlightenment is the complete and irreversible awakening to one's true nature, in which the wisdom of both seeing the true nature of phenomena and knowing phenomena in all their variety is revealed."

 

Blessings to all.

[ShaktiMama]

Marvellous! In Buddhist traditions there's the path of the cause, where practitioners seek to realise buddha nature, and the path of result where inherent buddha nature is taken as a self-evident starting point.

 

Coming from a time steeped in myth the Delphic Oracle's injunction of 'Know thyself' fits nicely with one contemporary definition of enlightenment given by Dzigar Kontrul, "Enlightenment is the complete and irreversible awakening to one's true nature, in which the wisdom of both seeing the true nature of phenomena and knowing phenomena in all their variety is revealed."

 

Blessings to all.

 

I like that one, rex. Some never lose that when they are born, some must be retrained. But then there is that damn sticky cultural lens when people start to interpret what that means.

 

SO i feel to define even further can we say what do we expect of someone's behavior who has become enlightened? Will it be acceptable across cultures? What is self evident?

[3bob]

"Enlightenment", right under our noses all along...

[ralis]

What she means is enlightenment is conceptual in the context relative to any given culture. Furthermore, enlightenment can't be conceptualized. The concept of enlightenment has been packaged and sold as a consumer item in the U.S. The so called gurus that come through Santa Fe NM have given spiritually a really bad name. Enlightenment for a price!

 

Sufi idea of enlightenment: Union with a universal love i.e, God. Bliss.

Buddhist: Realizing dependent causality.

Native American: Union with the great spirit.

The European Enlightenment: Circa 1650-1768.

European philosophy: Some claim Heidegger was enlightened along with a few other European philosophers. I have read some of the phenomenologists i.e, Ponty and Buddhism was a profound influence in those writings.

Catholic Enlightenment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Enlightenment.

 

ralis

[C T]

Brother,

If your curry is as good as your words of wisdom, I will have to make the trip across the pond to enjoy some of it!

 

Respectfully, if we can't put our finger on exactly what enlightenment is -- in reference to using language to its fullest -- how can you put your finger on what enlightenment is not. Words are simply words, a collection of ancients letters that elicit similar but often different thoughts between us all. And thoughts are just thoughts, neither of which have anything to do with enlightenment, or everything to do with enlightenment -- damn it!

 

Had some panang this weekend that was out of the world!

Ah! So you had a curryful (or colorful maybe?) weekend i see - how wonderful is that?!!

 

Wasn't that much nicer that all this brain-twisting, mind-crunching talk about enlightenment?

 

I totally agree with you that words can be so inadequate when it comes to matters concerning that which

is unknowable, for once intellectualized and conceptualized, all things become known, and are

therefore past. Enlightenment can never belong somewhere in the past, nor does it exist as some

end we can arrive at sometime in the future. In a way, Enlightenment is to wake up, to realize the

past is Now, and the future is also Now, right where we are, in this very moment. Perhaps this is the

Union that so many traditions ponder and speak about since the dawn of time itself. It is so simple

to let go of ding donging between the past and the future, but the bad news is most choose to hold on,

for the sake of comfort and familiarity, and also out of fear and ignorance.

 

When i was a kid, my Mom told me a very simple story, one that she hoped would help me

understand how we cheat ourselves out of living a full and wonderful life. Of course i never grasped the

significance of that story until much, much later, which was understandable, considering how thick

i was as a child!

 

Anyway, the story is about a little bug that lived among a huge colony of bugs on the bed of a fast-

flowing river, and all their lives are spent in this one spot on the river bed, each clinging on to some

weed or debris to keep from being swept away into the big unknown. From birth till near-death, all they

do is cling on as tight as they could, and the only time they let go is when they die. And so this is their

world.

 

One day, this little fella began to wonder about life, and the mystery of the great beyond that must lie

somewhere downstream, at some mystical place that only those who have passed on can access. So he

plucked up the courage to ask the local shaman about this, much to the shaman's surprise! Oh young bug,

said the shaman, 'there' is not a place you should be thinking about - that is the Great Yonder, a place

that is beyond all bug understanding, and once you leave this place to venture forth, you will never ever

come back here, you'd be gone forever! And the shaman went on and on, as shamans do, in discourse,

on all the reasons why it is such Mystery out there. But thankfully the bug did not buy into any of the

garbage that was offered up.

 

And so the day came for him to bid farewell to all his family and friends - he told them all to 'hang tight'

(forgive the pun!) - the time has arrived for the big 'let go' and in the blink of an eye, without

much struggle, he simply released his grip on that which has been his life, his total security and reality.

 

And the adventure began from that moment on, everything around him just came alive, everything!

It was all just one big flow.. he was no longer separated from the current, and this appeared to give him

much freedom, and he began to anticipate what great mystery awaits him at the end of his journey. On and

on he drifted, until one day he happened to look down, and to his amazement, he suddenly witnessed that on

the river bed, as far as his eyes could see, were other bugs just like him, all clinging on tightly to their

own little piece of reality in their own little colonies.

 

One day, just for the fun of it, he decided to stop at one of these bug worlds to see if they were any

different from him. Upon descending, some of the bugs below saw him coming, and was totally awed!

Wow! A god has decided to come today among our midst they thought to themselves! The chief priest

was the first to make offerings and do all the rituals to idolize this amazing BUG that has manifested

himself from the Great Yonder! And this little bug was totally shocked by the drama that unfolded, but he

took it all in. He was worshipped and praised, and idolized, as all so-called Divine Beings are.

 

Just before he left, he was asked to speak to the little colony, and he said to them, listen i am just the

same as any one of you here - you are all 'Divine' just like me - but to realize this, the only thing that is

required is for you to let go of your clinging, and then you will be free and become one with the great

flow! A great silence ensued, and all became quite bewildered by these strange words that this so-called

Divine Bug is uttering! They cannot comprehend why this supposedly Enlightened Bug would ask them to

give up all they ever knew was their security and reality! After the speech, the chief priest gathered a few

elders together, and they pondered the words of the little bug carefully, and decided that he was a false

god after all, for he did not speak wisely. Yes it was blasphemy some of the elders angrily proclaimed!

How dare he speaks in such an irresponsible and irreverent manner! He must be captured and crucified!

They plotted and schemed, and then their plan succeeded. They caught the bug, and tried to crucify

him but he overcame their devious plot because the bug had complete understanding and mastery of the

workings of the river's energetic currents, and used it to his full advantage and managed to free himself.

 

Whew! that was close, he reflected deeply, better not do that again, he sternly reminded himself as he

drifted off. Some of the sympathizers below who saw him ascend the depths agreed quietly among

themselves that he was a true god indeed, who had mastery over the elements, the way he ascended into

the heavens! They marveled at his power, but were too afraid to take his advice, so they spent the rest of

their lives clutching at the own little piece of reality.

 

On and on he floated, unresisting, going wherever the river takes him. After many years, he still had

not reached the mysterious Great Yonder. By now, he was old, and time was near for him to depart

the physical world. So he then gave up all expectations of seeing this place that his shaman told him

about years before. At that very moment, the realization hit him! This Great Yonder is not somewhere

downstream, for it lies not outside of him, but in that very act of letting go itself... thats where its at.

Aaah... peace and serenity at last! Emancipated, he no longer differentiates between his inner flow

and the greater flow of the river, for there was never two sets of flows to begin with..

 

All the best!

[Trunk]

"According to sutra the root of cyclic existence is our misconception that things have true existence. According to tantra this [mis]conception and the energy wind on which it rides are responsible. Since mind and energy are always together, tantric practice concentrates on halting the activity of the energy winds which serve as mounts for such [mis]conceptions. By gathering these coarser energies into the central channel of the subtle body and by causing them to remain and dissolve there, their activity ceases as does that of the coarser mental states allied to them. This allows subtle awareness to become active. One of the main purposes of tantric practice is to make manifest the actual clear light, namely subtle awareness in a blissful state experiencing reality."

 

- The Three Principal Aspects of the Path, pg 42

 

INTEGRATION with LIGHT

Short version (two steps)

 

1. Concentrate in the deep-center(s) and refine.

 

 

 

2. Refinement culminates in concentration integrating with Openness.

 

 

 

p.s.

It's worth while to be able to describe some of the mechanics of enlightenment, such as the process in terms of channels, winds and drops. Also the dissolution of the subject / object split.

[ralis]

Marvellous! In Buddhist traditions there's the path of the cause, where practitioners seek to realise buddha nature, and the path of result where inherent buddha nature is taken as a self-evident starting point.

 

Coming from a time steeped in myth the Delphic Oracle's injunction of 'Know thyself' fits nicely with one contemporary definition of enlightenment given by Dzigar Kontrul, "Enlightenment is the complete and irreversible awakening to one's true nature, in which the wisdom of both seeing the true nature of phenomena and knowing phenomena in all their variety is revealed."

 

Blessings to all.

 

 

"Enlightenment is". That statement is nothing more than an absolute anthropocentric view by humans. I don't care if the quote is from a Lama or not. No one can realize the so called absolute nature of all phenomena. Buddha's are given way too much credit. The illusion of stating that one can know the absolute nature of all phenomena is no different than the quest to find the Higgs Boson particle (CERN) that will unlock the key to the universe. The Higgs Boson particle determines mass and it is believed will lead to?

 

 

To further clarify, the use of the verb (is) is used as an absolute conceptualization of an object. We all use (is) everyday. However, when it is used in some context as the above statement by Dzigar Kontrul, a dogma and doctrine are created. Furthermore, Buddhist's deny the existence of any permanent self. Yet, claim a permanent true nature.

 

ralis

Edited December 16, 2009 by ralis

[Apech]

How dare you be as highly educated as you are! How absolutely dare you! Thou dost offend thine eye!

 

 

University of life, mate (sniff)

 

 

 

 

SO i feel to define even further can we say what do we expect of someone's behavior who has become enlightened? Will it be acceptable across cultures? What is self evident?

 

 

Suggest:

 

Activity of the enlightened person would be based on love. Not soppy love or romantic love of course but a willingness to make themselves vulnerable for the benefit of others. Buddhists would say compassion - the reason Bodhisattvas teach (see Lino's posts above). And also uncontrived love, that is love without thinking about love.

[C T]

So Cow Tao...how are you different now that you have watched those videos. How have you been changed? Honestly, I did not watch. I am not into the lecture path. I want to know how you live because you now know what enlightenment is.

 

Prepare to be offended Cow Tao. Your cultural prejudices are showing. The path to enlightenment( if it does exist) i can say is not clean or clear...can be rather disgusting, immoral (there's that word) and messy. I would reference the Aghoras.

 

I was telling my senior students a few days ago that I eat, breathe, and shit God.

 

Why is that? There is in the UNIVERSE, in my judgmental opinion only Consciousness. Immaterial or material, sacred and profane, and all in between there only Is THAT WHICH IS.

 

I have chosen to experience All that Is as Sacred. That's limiting That but I am still learning. Someday I will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it all just IS. Well I do know that on an experiential level but it still hasn't totally filtered out into my day to day living. That's where it counts IMO.

 

ShaktiMama,

 

No offense taken!

 

If you chose not to watch the clips thats fine too! Its not for adults anyway..

 

That which IS, according to your understanding, is Consciousness, which is you, in other words.

So your Consciousness is experiencing All that is Sacred, and there is really no separation then

between the Consciousness, the Sacred, and that which IS. There are really no limitations there at all

are there? Every thing is contained within the Consciousness, and the the Consciousness is none other

than that which IS. Is this the right way to put it?

 

So the question here to you is what is preventing you from living and experiencing the IS now? This

very moment? Who is it that imposed a separation? And who is it who can lift this imposition?

Is the separation real? If it is, who then makes it real? If it is not real, again, there is really no

separation then, is there?

 

If we choose to see it as a lifetime's struggle before we can get closer to that which IS, that is the

reality we give ourselves. Most people opt for this route because it is such a universally prevalent

attitude. Its like if we dont suffer, we dont deserve to be free of suffering, and so we choose to

live in apparent separation from that which IS in order to come back to union with that which IS after

we have done enough homework.. Isnt that odd? I am sure there is a much simpler alternative, one

that many will not accept because it is simply too direct. And so we carry on with our diligence, laborious

and virtuous efforts, and beating ourselves silly over the heads (many see this as a productive endeavor)

with an imagined baseball bat! Life can be quite funny like that..

 

 

 

 

 

University of life, mate (sniff)

Suggest:

 

Activity of the enlightened person would be based on love. Not soppy love or romantic love of course but a willingness to make themselves vulnerable for the benefit of others. Buddhists would say compassion - the reason Bodhisattvas teach (see Lino's posts above). And also uncontrived love, that is love without thinking about love.

Excellent point A7!!

 

The key is how vulnerable is one willing to become? How much are we willing to let go, to break

down our walls?

[Lucky7Strikes]

The Bodhisattva helps no one. There is helping, but no one is saved, and no one does the saving.

 

No one is taught.

 

There is the endless intent of compassion, the endless flow, to break the boundaries by letting go, and at times, force.

 

And when that compassion is pure and perfected with the wisdom to see all the potential lines one can draw on empty space, the flowers in the sky, I think that is enlightenment.

 

. HAHA, I love to pretend! .

Edited December 16, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes