KAP

[zazaza]

I agree. So what about today? That was then and this is now. We don't live in those times. What will you know and do differently when I tell you that women would today be repelled by a man who put his career (even if it is a "good" or "spiritual" career) first?

 

I can tell you from experience...in counseling many women... you will attract women who despise themselves in the name of God and think they have no worth...only the worth their husbands/ boyfriends/ their perception of a patriarchal divine gives them. Many, many men like that kind of slavish devotion. Do you?

No offense my dear mama,

but I don't believe your opinion is the opinion of all women in general - and even then,

their opinion does not say all that much about something being right or wrong in the grand scheme.

 

The average man marches along blindly, living his life without examination to the principles he espouses or admires without deeper introspection of how it affects him or his relationships to others and the world. There is a different way. Not my way, that's for sure. but other things to contemplate. What we don't know that we don't know is so large. The more I learn the less I know.

Dear mama,

i could reply to every thing you and others bring to table,

but i can see that it will only lead to further arguing.

 

I see you and santi teach, and you are both older than me...

but being older and being a "teacher" does not mean you know better...

 

i have a mind of my own and we are free to disagree.

even though i think both your replies to me have been a little condenscending,

i wish both of you and all that is around you good luck and much happiness.

 

we are all brothers and sisters after all.

 

 

 

 

the ones who hold wrong views will soon or later realize their mistakes.

 

may all beings be happy.

Edited December 22, 2009 by zazaza

[ShaktiMama]

Susan,

 

For once i saw the person behind the post, and it is a welcome change to all the previous ones from

you that sounded so, well, so ShaktiMama - ish!

 

Much appreciated.

 

Have a good Christmas and peaceful New Year!

 

Back atcha Cow Tao.

 

Email is a poor medium for connection and reflection. It is truly one dimensional in conveying the essence of someone's character.

 

Never mistake intuition for insight and experience.

[lino]

whether a particular thing is good or bad in the grand scheme of things is not

decided by the fact whether someone is repelled by it or not.

 

even if his kids really suffered from his departure so incredibly much (something i'm not convinced off because

as you say yourself, it's long time ago and we'd have to see the specifics of the situation to really have a good

view on it), then that sacrifice was worth it imo.

 

Gautama had and still has a positive impact on this world on a very large scale.

 

Gautama prostrated to a set of bones by a road in front of his disciples. He explained that it could have been his mother or father in another life. Maybe he left home out of a sense of love and duty?

Edited December 22, 2009 by lino

[voidisyinyang]

Voodoo Children in Benin -- initiation secrets as slavery?

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...28439949087697#

 

Ok I get you are GOD and you can JUDGE everyone : )

in certain tribes that is normal and in most cases "sex" is not occurring till the child becomes a woman.

 

This still occurs in Africa & in Native tribes today.

Personally no I have no interest in marrying a young girl.

I agree I think adoption is a better "option".

[ShaktiMama]

No offense my dear mama,

but I don't believe your opinion is the opinion of all women in general - and even then,

their opinion does not say all that much about something being right or wrong in the grand scheme.

Dear mama,

i could reply to every thing you and others bring to table,

but i can see that it will only lead to further arguing.

 

I see you and santi teach, and you are both older than me...

but being older and being a "teacher" does not mean you know better...

 

i have a mind of my own and we are free to disagree.

even though i think both your replies to me have been a little condenscending,

i wish both of you and all that is around you good luck and much happiness.

 

My apologies if I come off condescending...email is a poor medium to convey perception. No, my opinion is not of all women in general. But of women who have lived rich lives, who understand the Divine Feminine, I may have something to say or two.

 

The Feminine is not about right or wrong. It is about feelings, emotions, community, family, protection, loyalty much of what gets put aside in the patrifocal, vertical view and pursuit of spiritual development.

 

One is not better than the other. When the two polarities merge, Feminine and Masculine, is where the real breakthroughs begin.

 

Yes, I have lived a lot longer than you probably. I am older than Santi for sure. I don't know better but I may "feel", intuit, insight better because of having lived longer. I was just telling Santi the other day that I don't notice any age difference between us unless it is in perhaps a cultural reference or because of my living a longer, varied life I am more "seasoned" which makes me more measured in my response to life. Believe you me, I would not be hanging out or teaching with a 33 year old if he didn't bring something significant to the table. Purely from what can be seen as my ego talking... I turned down a lot of offers for a teaching alliance before he approached me...from both younger and older.

 

 

I was an absolute idiot in my 20s due to some really horrible family issues. Smart but an idiot and a bitch. I was not even asking or positing questions or theories like most of the people on this forum. I was trying to extricate myself from a lifetime of Christian fundamentalism. How fortunate you are that you have self awareness to be on this path early.

 

Of course you have a mind of your own and please keep it. I don't want it.

 

I will tell you how I approach discussion with people. If it doesn't hit down to where we live in our homes and in our lives...it is not meaningful IMO. I am not interested to hear about what I can read in books by myself.

 

If what you read and discover does not change you and make you into a better person or better citizen on this planet why are we even talking? Why are you even reading? Yes, that sounds arrogant for sure but that is my reason for being on this planet : to help others discover what that might be for them. I really don't care what a person may choose: Taoist, Hindu, etc... just choose...or not choose. ..or maybe we are thinking about choosing or are we being eclectic and have a menu or....

 

Just to let people know...so there are no surprises...when people engage me on this board I am going to eventually want to know that what you are talking about...how are you making it real for you? Why...because it gives credibility to what you are talking about.

 

Really, this is what I do for a living, help people find meaning in their lives...and the best way to find what is meaningful is to ask them what is happening in their life right now.

 

Life is meaningless...except for the meaning we give it.

 

So that was my long response to your short response.

 

Good luck and happiness on your path too.

[C T]

Almost everyone sense a calling at some point in his or her life. The more noble and supreme the goal,

the greater the sacrifices demanded.

 

Who amongst us know for certain the thoughts that raced thru Gotama's mind that fateful night? GIH said

it was a tough decision, not necessarily right or wrong, but tough indeed it was. There were no accounts

of Gotama having deserted his family altogether during his quest for enlightenment, so whatever we

think here, in questioning his heart, is at best speculation.

 

The objective is perhaps to refocus on his teachings and not his actions prior to enlightenment, for at times

even the right hand do not know what the left hand's intended motives are, let alone expanding our energies

on something which has no direct bearing on the path towards liberation..

 

May all beings be free and joyful.. have a happy time with your family, and i pray you all do not have to

resort to leaving your loved ones in seeking to understand who you really are!

 

Joy to all who abide in peace and tranquility.

[zazaza]

how are you making it real for you? Why...because it gives credibility to what you are talking about.

would it really?

or would it just give rise to another subjective opinion?

 

truth spoken through the mouth of a fool is still truth nonetheless.

 

----------------------------

 

at this point in time, we obviously differ a lot in our views.

my apologies to you as well if i have unknowingly made a mistake.

Joy to all who abide in peace and tranquility.

And peace and tranquility to all who do not abide in it yet.

Edited December 22, 2009 by zazaza

[goldisheavy]

There where & are african Kings that have wives younger as there where also kings in Asia including "buddhist" & "Hindu" kings that had younger wives. There are "Taoist" moms that slept (intercourse)with their sons and breast fed them till they 15 +......

 

Oh sure. Just because one man was a murderer, doesn't mean he was the only one. The world is full of murderers. That still doesn't make murder more acceptable though, does it?

 

1) we do not know the real reasons or the circumstances of Muhammad p.b.u.h. marrying Aisha p.b.u.h.

 

We don't need to know the real reasons. This line of thinking can be used to justify anything. Was Mohammed equally as compassionate to others? So if some woman committed adultery, did Mohammed go, "oh well, we don't know the reasons why she did that... so we should reserve our judgement"?? Of course not. Mohammed would be saying, "Down with that bitch!! STONE HER NOW!!!" Etc. Mohammed was ruthless and not compassionate. So if I were to meet Mohammed in person, I might cut his head off. Why is that? Because I think he's a scumbag who shouldn't be alive. Or I might show him compassion and let him live, compassion that he failed to show to so many others like himself.

 

You should learn to see things for what they are. What you are doing now Vajra, is called apologetics. You're apologizing. Stop apologizing. Don't try to smooth Mohammed over and accept the fact that by any modern standard in our culture and in most other cultures someone who committed Mohammed's action would be considered both an asshole, and a criminal. Mohammed would rot in jail had he behaved the same way in USA or in any country of Europe, or Russia, or China, etc.

 

Where you there to see it or to say hey this is wrong or right?

 

Mohammed never had a problem judging people. He condemned countless men to death without any deliberation or thought.

 

We are not God to judge.

 

This is bullshit on so many levels. First, we are a sleeping and dreaming God. Second, we judge all the time. All the time. Perception is judgment. Third, it is hypocritical to ask not to judge a dirty and murderous character like Mohammed, while being asked to come down heavy on adultery and theft. How can I consider George W Bush a dirty character and Mohammed clean? No way! If what Bush did was dirty, then Mohammed is even more dirty. If what Mohammed did was clean, then Bush is a saint. Anything else is hypocrisy. And I don't like hypocrisy, and apparently, neither did Mohammed, although he was a hypocrite of the highest order. Muslims are some of the most judgmental people I know. In fact, the more religious a person is, the more judgmental they are.

 

I feel sorry for you Vajra. You are in a bad predicament. You're in a situation where Sufis have some legitimate wisdom, and you want that wisdom. But at the same time, Sufis are associated with a terrible religion, with something that's a blight upon the world. Mohammed, the leader of your religion, is a dirty and murderous scumbag. That's a difficult situation. You probably have nice Muslim friends and then you also know that there are lots of asshole Muslims around the world. It's hard to reconcile all that. How do you reconcile your Muslim friends, who probably don't rape 9 year old girls, with Mohammed? You cannot. How do you reconcile peaceful Muslims with those who want to convert every non-believer into a Muslim? Wanting to convert every human being into a Muslim is the most violent thought I've ever known. To make every person into your desired image is precisely what violence is. Islam is violent at the core, because of the concept of Jihad. Yes, there is inner Jihad. But inner Jihad is not the full extent of Jihad. Muslims consider non-believers fair game. Non-believers are not protected by morality from the Muslim side. Apostates are to be executed. What kind of thinking is that? So people are held in the grasp of Islam by fear. If people don't feel free to leave Islam, and if they fear being killed by leaving it, then it's no longer a free choice.

 

So you are trapped brother. You got caught in a mouse trap. You fell for that little bit of cheese, but now you will pay with your life, because you've stepped on the path to hell.

 

Was the girl actually raped? Did you see it happen?

 

Do you know what statutory rape is?

 

 

Did you read the link I gave you? Aisha's mother had to take her by the hand and lead her to the dirty and filthy Mohammed. Aisha would not have sex with him on her own. She needed her mother to "gently" prod her toward Mohammed.

 

I personally like older women. I always have.

 

Me too, but that's beside the point. We're not talking about our personal sexual preferences here.

Edited December 22, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Pero]

So if I were to meet Mohammed in person, I might cut his head off. Why is that? Because I think he's a scumbag who shouldn't be alive. Or I might show him compassion and let him live, compassion that he failed to show to so many others like himself.

 

Why do you think letting him live would be compassionate and killing him wouldn't?

[goldisheavy]

Gautama prostrated to a set of bones by a road in front of his disciples. He explained that it could have been his mother or father in another life. Maybe he left home out of a sense of love and duty?

 

For my own future reference I would like to know which Sutta describes this event.

 

Why do you think letting him live would be compassionate and killing him wouldn't?

 

I would have to see what could be gained in either case. If I saw that Mohammed had remorse and that he could see why it was wrong what he did, or if I could see there was at least a chance of that, I might want to let him live.

 

Also, if I could be convinced that Mohammed would not be preaching anywhere, I might also let him live, even if he had no remorse for his actions.

 

But the combination of doing something evil without remorse while simultaneously preaching and spreading fear around the globe, that combination would cause me to put Mohammed down like a bad dog.

[voidisyinyang]

The real teachers:

 

Santa's Helpers

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/theatre.php?filmID=297

 

For my own future reference I would like to know which Sutta describes this event.

I would have to see what could be gained in either case. If I saw that Mohammed had remorse and that he could see why it was wrong what he did, or if I could see there was at least a chance of that, I might want to let him live.

 

Also, if I could be convinced that Mohammed would not be preaching anywhere, I might also let him live, even if he had no remorse for his actions.

 

But the combination of doing something evil without remorse while simultaneously preaching and spreading fear around the globe, that combination would cause me to put Mohammed down like a bad dog.

[Pero]

For my own future reference I would like to know which Sutta describes this event.

 

 

The Filial Piety Sutra

The Buddha Speaks about the Deep Kindness

of Parents and the Difficulty in Repaying it.

[goldisheavy]

The real teachers:

 

Santa's Helpers

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/theatre.php?filmID=297

 

Thanks for the link. I'm aware of this issue, but it's good to have more information.

[lino]

The Filial Piety Sutra

The Buddha Speaks about the Deep Kindness

of Parents and the Difficulty in Repaying it.

 

 

BOOYAH!

 

Thanks Brother, I owe you.

 

 

 

I feel sorry for you Vajra. You are in a bad predicament. You're in a situation where Sufis have some legitimate wisdom, and you want that wisdom. But at the same time, Sufis are associated with a terrible religion, with something that's a blight upon the world. Mohammed, the leader of your religion, is a dirty and murderous scumbag. That's a difficult situation. You probably have nice Muslim friends and then you also know that there are lots of asshole Muslims around the world. It's hard to reconcile all that. How do you reconcile your Muslim friends, who probably don't rape 9 year old girls, with Mohammed? You cannot. How do you reconcile peaceful Muslims with those who want to convert every non-believer into a Muslim? Wanting to convert every human being into a Muslim is the most violent thought I've ever known. To make every person into your desired image is precisely what violence is. Islam is violent at the core, because of the concept of Jihad. Yes, there is inner Jihad. But inner Jihad is not the full extent of Jihad. Muslims consider non-believers fair game. Non-believers are not protected by morality from the Muslim side. Apostates are to be executed. What kind of thinking is that? So people are held in the grasp of Islam by fear. If people don't feel free to leave Islam, and if they fear being killed by leaving it, then it's no longer a free choice.

 

 

What are your sources?

 

Do you read Arabic?

 

Keep in mind that the catholic church sent out people to try to discredit him.

 

Also, Heavens gives ways and means to those who are committed to accomplishing the purposes of Heaven. The purposes of Heaven can't be accomplished if in some way the five elements get dirty.

[goldisheavy]

The Filial Piety Sutra

The Buddha Speaks about the Deep Kindness

of Parents and the Difficulty in Repaying it.

 

Do you know what is the source of that writing? Is it from Pali Canon? Where is it from?

 

This is a quote from the same text:

 

"Most women in the world have little wisdom and are saturated with emotion. They give birth to and raise children, feeling that this is their duty."

 

Do you read Arabic?

 

No, I do not. Do you?

 

Keep in mind that the catholic church sent out people to try to discredit him.

 

That doesn't mean those people are wrong or that they don't read Arabic.

 

Also, Heavens gives ways and means to those who are committed to accomplishing the purposes of Heaven. The purposes of Heaven can't be accomplished if in some way the five elements get dirty.

 

This is just bullshit.

 

The Filial Piety Sutra

The Buddha Speaks about the Deep Kindness

of Parents and the Difficulty in Repaying it.

 

I've been digging around and I think I found something that should interest you.

 

The Sutra of Filial Piety (or Sutra on the Profundity of Filial Love, Sutra on Parental Benevolence) is an apocryphal sutra composed in China and apparently an exercise in Buddhist apologetics.

 

The text attempts to synthesise native Confucian ideals with Buddhist teachings and was probably produced by Chinese Buddhist monks in imitation of the Confucian Classic of Filial Piety. The sutra seeks to refute Confucian criticism that Buddhism's traditionally monastic focus undermines the virtue of filial piety. [1]

 

The sutra is still highly popular in China and Japan and in the latter is sometimes used as a focus in Naikan-type introspection practices.

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutra_of_Filial_Piety

 

I knew something was suspicious when I failed to find this text in the Pali Canon translations available on the net.

[Pero]

Do you know what is the source of that writing? Is it from Pali Canon? Where is it from?

 

It's not from the Pali Canon, it's a Mahayana Sutra.

This is what Wiki says about it:

 

The Sutra of Filial Piety (or Sutra on the Profundity of Filial Love, Sutra on Parental Benevolence) is an apocryphal sutra composed in China and apparently an exercise in Buddhist apologetics.

 

The text attempts to synthesise native Confucian ideals with Buddhist teachings and was probably produced by Chinese Buddhist monks in imitation of the Confucian Classic of Filial Piety. The sutra seeks to refute Confucian criticism that Buddhism's traditionally monastic focus undermines the virtue of filial piety. [1]

 

The sutra is still highly popular in China and Japan and in the latter is sometimes used as a focus in Naikan-type introspection practices.

 

 

I seem to remember that when Buddha's mother was reborn in the heaven of the 33, Buddha went there and stayed for three months. He taught a certain sutra to repay the kindness of his mother if I'm not mistaken, does anyone know how it's called?

 

I knew something was suspicious when I failed to find this text in the Pali Canon translations available on the net.

 

So you only consider those in the Pali Canon as authentic? Well that's surprising. And funny.

[forestofemptiness]

I used to be troubled by the legend of the Buddha leaving his wife and baby. How could he do such a thing? Having a son of my own, it seems clear now:

 

His love for his family pushed him to solve the mysteries of life and death. Seeing his baby son, knowing that he, too, would be subject to old age, disease, and death, he felt compelled to do something.

 

Both his wife and son are counted among the arahats. So if you buy into Buddhism, and achieving nibbana is the highest thing possible, then he gave far more to his family than he took away.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

even if his kids really suffered from his departure so incredibly much (something i'm not convinced off because

as you say yourself, it's long time ago and we'd have to see the specifics of the situation to really have a good

view on it), then that sacrifice was worth it imo.

 

Gautama had and still has a positive impact on this world on a very large scale.

[goldisheavy]

So you only consider those in the Pali Canon as authentic? Well that's surprising. And funny.

 

As far as Gautama Buddha is concerned, yes. Since I was making statements about Gautama Buddha, I had to limit myself to Pali Canon. There is another Canon (I forget its name, but I believe it's in Sanskrit) that some consider equally authoritative when describing Gautama Buddha. As best I know, little or nothing of it is available in translation and it is more or less identical to the Pali Canon in content.

 

I like all kinds of writings. For example, I like Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra. I wouldn't say that Gautama Buddha is associated with Vimalakirti Nirdesa though, except maybe in a very indirect and nebulous fashion.

Edited December 23, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Pero]

As far as Gautama Buddha is concerned, yes. Since I was making statements about Gautama Buddha, I had to limit myself to Pali Canon. There is another Canon (I forget its name, but I believe it's in Sanskrit) that some consider equally authoritative when describing Gautama Buddha. As best I know, little or nothing of it is available in translation and it is more or less identical to the Pali Canon in content.

 

I like all kinds of writings. For example, I like Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra. I wouldn't say that Gautama Buddha is associated with Vimalakirti Nirdesa though, except maybe in a very indirect and nebulous fashion.

 

Ah I see, my apologies.

[zazaza]

I used to be troubled by the legend of the Buddha leaving his wife and baby. How could he do such a thing? Having a son of my own, it seems clear now:

 

His love for his family pushed him to solve the mysteries of life and death. Seeing his baby son, knowing that he, too, would be subject to old age, disease, and death, he felt compelled to do something.

 

Both his wife and son are counted among the arahats. So if you buy into Buddhism, and achieving nibbana is the highest thing possible, then he gave far more to his family than he took away.

 

Just my thoughts.

my dear forest

 

that's a beautiful theory, and it's been written very well too. (now, please don't allow the ego to take pride in that. not saying i see ego in your post, for all i know you are in nirvana and i pray to god that you are or will be soon. )

 

i'm not sure whether that theory is close to the truth,

but it's a good example of how sometimes a smaller evil is necessary to create a greater good.

 

may all beings be happy!

Edited December 23, 2009 by zazaza

[That Guy]

Voodoo Children in Benin -- initiation secrets as slavery?

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...28439949087697#

Some pretty harsh reality there Drew...

[lino]

Do you know what is the source of that writing? Is it from Pali Canon? Where is it from?

 

This is a quote from the same text:

 

"Most women in the world have little wisdom and are saturated with emotion. They give birth to and raise children, feeling that this is their duty."

No, I do not. Do you?

That doesn't mean those people are wrong or that they don't read Arabic.

This is just bullshit.

I've been digging around and I think I found something that should interest you.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutra_of_Filial_Piety

 

I knew something was suspicious when I failed to find this text in the Pali Canon translations available on the net.

 

Perhaps, Shakyamuni expressed that in order to inspire women to seek something higher.

 

Do you think that I'm going to believe an institution that is interested in keeping the status quo?

Their power has been waning for decades and why? Because people were looking at them more closely.

People, in general, don't want to support extravagance for other people when there are mouths to feed.

Are they doing things from a view of Love and Wisdom? How many times have they been caught doing

things?

 

Why are Buddhist and Taoist numbers going up, even with the bad apples?

Why are Catholic numbers going down?

 

Keep in mind what happened. The Moors "invaded" Spain and kept it for 500 years. Go ahead and look at why and what the Moors gave us for being "invaded". Nations fall apart from the inside, not the outside. Did the crusades after that work?

[voidisyinyang]

You're aware of it? The President of the University of Minnesota personally emailed me to tell me I had "already done enough" and "please do not go on hunger strike" in order to get action taken on sweatshop labor. Now the University has to list the factories where all the sports clothing is manufactured -- and there's independent non-profit regulation of the worker conditions -- the Workers Rights Consortium.

 

But this "Santa's Helpers" documentary states some 90% of toys are made in China and the workers put in 16 hour shifts regularly sometimes all-nighters. The factories keep a secret set of fake pay stubs and work schedules to fool the inspectors and the big purchasers like Disney and Nike refuse to pay for any wage increases.

 

Yeah I was aware as well but after seeing this documentary I know now that the real Taoists in China are getting plastic burns from pulling out molds of baby dolls.

 

Thanks for the link. I'm aware of this issue, but it's good to have more information.

[goldisheavy]

Perhaps, Shakyamuni expressed that in order to inspire women to seek something higher.

 

If you have been awake in class, you will know that quote about women is not Shakyamuni's words, because it's not from Pali Canon. It's the invention of Chinese. Just because something is an invention, doesn't mean it's bad. However, you must keep your mind clear about what goes where and what belongs with what. If you want to mix things for your own benefit, I think that's fine as long as you maintain high awareness of what it is you are doing. Don't delude yourself.

 

You're aware of it? The President of the University of Minnesota personally emailed me to tell me I had "already done enough" and "please do not go on hunger strike" in order to get action taken on sweatshop labor. Now the University has to list the factories where all the sports clothing is manufactured -- and there's independent non-profit regulation of the worker conditions -- the Workers Rights Consortium.

 

But this "Santa's Helpers" documentary states some 90% of toys are made in China and the workers put in 16 hour shifts regularly sometimes all-nighters. The factories keep a secret set of fake pay stubs and work schedules to fool the inspectors and the big purchasers like Disney and Nike refuse to pay for any wage increases.

 

Yeah I was aware as well but after seeing this documentary I know now that the real Taoists in China are getting plastic burns from pulling out molds of baby dolls.

 

Drew, don't call those workers Daoists, please. That's not helping you any. I think you're doing plenty good and it's good that you bring this documentary to our awareness. You don't need to add exaggerations and lies on top of it to make it better.

 

A person doesn't have to be Daoist before I begin feeling compassion toward them. They can be atheists. It doesn't matter.

 

And one more time: Thank you for the documentary.

Edited December 23, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrasattva]

The more I learn the less I know.

 

 

Yes we are all whitebelts

 

No offense my dear mama,

but I don't believe your opinion is the opinion of all women in general - and even then,

their opinion does not say all that much about something being right or wrong in the grand scheme.

Dear mama,

i could reply to every thing you and others bring to table,

but i can see that it will only lead to further arguing.

 

I see you and santi teach, and you are both older than me...

but being older and being a "teacher" does not mean you know better...

 

i have a mind of my own and we are free to disagree.

even though i think both your replies to me have been a little condenscending,

i wish both of you and all that is around you good luck and much happiness.

 

we are all brothers and sisters after all.

the ones who hold wrong views will soon or later realize their mistakes.

 

may all beings be happy.

 

absolutely the only difference is the "mileage" .

 

We are all only brothers & Sisters and ultimately ONE.