Secret of the Golden Flower

[~jK~]

Can anyone recommend a website or exercises that help one be able to sit in full lotus?

The best advice on learning the Full Lotus is "don't" - at least not all at once. Ease into it slowly.

A Zafu will help but they are expensive to buy - but easy to make.

Here are a few pictures on using them and other cushons:

http://www.dharmacrafts.com/100xMB/2INFO01...ure-photos.html

 

I like them but I make my own by just using a few throw cushons...

Also -I tink you will soon discover that a full lotus is not necesary.

I meditate on park benches, laying in bed, walking, standing in line, riding the bus...

 

I suggest to get this book to beginners as well as most others:

The Five Tibetans

http://www.10ac.com/five_tibetans_book.htm

It is easy to understand - 85 pages of large print and 10 pages of the 85 pages are pictures.

The section on Kundalini yoga is best to learn the basics of meditation in chapters 2,3,4,5,6 and 9

[~jK~]

One field of the information contained with in The Secret of the Golden Flower that is rarely talked about is the point of Astral Projection.

 

Below I have posted some of the URL's of the pictures - some are different but they convey the same message.

 

The point in question is covered in the book through the pictures captioned as:

 

Meditation stage 1: The circulation pattern of the breath AKA: the light is formed. The breath begins as you inhale and proceeds downward to your abdomen, then to your genitals, then up your spine through the 7 Chakras with the last being chakra # 6 & 7. Video:

Pictures from GF:

http://www.alchemylab.com/ealch-s1.jpg

http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/thu...00px-Stage1.gif ,

 

Meditation stage 2: The embryo is formed (a new self that can seperate from the body) http://www.alchemylab.com/e1alch-s1.jpg

 

Meditation stage 3: The new self seperates from the body but is still attached to the body - this points to being controlled by the body while developing different attributes http://www.alchemylab.com/b1alch-s1.jpg

 

Meditation stage 4: Here I need to add a bit on the subject of Chinese culture: In China, The Number 4 is seen as death which, in this case, I see it as representing the final objective. The relation is this: the Number 4 is drawn like a body in a box or casket: 四 . man is this: 人 - in the box, the man is divided into body & soul seperated.

The picture:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/96/25527646...b386af6.jpg?v=0

 

At the present I am seeing this as an extension of the study of Kundlini yoga that uses the final stage of Kundalini through the passing of Chakra #7 to make an interface with the world.

 

Any Comments either hypothetical or conjecture or experience related ?

Edited August 16, 2009 by ~jK~

[lifeforce]

Hmmm, I gave my (inferior) wilhelm translation away and kept my cleary-- so I cannot read the section you are referring to.

 

I would encourage you to remember, however, that the practice of tSotGF is a 'living' one-- and so formal sitting and meditation methods become obsolete. You are learning to carry the practice with you throughout the day-- as you live your 'new' life.

 

So do not over-emphasize specific techniques that are suggested to you by wilhelms translation. They are not important. Even the breath is not important-- only the cultivation of the light.

 

 

these are just my opinions

(-I think that this thread is rather dedicated to a corrupt interpretation of the practice, so it is important to say.)

 

Bump.

 

Cleary's translation is superb and very easy to understand compared to Wilhelm's. A completely different book altogether.

A practice that can be used in the midst of daily life by anyone, and not just on the cushion by monks in a secluded monastery.

It has taken me years to find the ultimate book on 'meditation'. This is it. No more books or teachers are needed.

Thank you Thomas Cleary.

 

The very essence of mind.

It trancends ALL traditions, religions and belief systems.

Pure Ch'an.

Pure Tao.

Without the 'isms'

[adept]

Bump.

 

Cleary's translation is superb and very easy to understand compared to Wilhelm's. A completely different book altogether.

A practice that can be used in the midst of daily life by anyone, and not just on the cushion by monks in a secluded monastery.

It has taken me years to find the ultimate book on 'meditation'. This is it. No more books or teachers are needed.

Thank you Thomas Cleary.

 

The very essence of mind.

It trancends ALL traditions, religions and belief systems.

Pure Ch'an.

Pure Tao.

Without the 'isms'

 

I have to agree with this. I've just finished reading it and have found it to be an excellent manual on meditation.

I had also tried to understand the Wilhelm/Jung version but it proved to be a non starter for me.

The Cleary translation and commentary is VERY accessible and easy to understand.

The differences are startling.

Wilhelm's talks about a MCO/energy type of practice, whereas Cleary's terms his translation as 'turning the light around', a mind looking inward.

Fascinating and totally compelling reading.

[Trunk]

I prefer Cleary's as well, though Wilhelm's is also useful (it took others to turn me on to it). Seems to me that Cleary is talking about the central channel, really core fundamental mind training - and Wilhelm about the MO.

[lifeforce]

Isn't it funny how you come back to books or teaching's that you originally thought were not for you ?

Well, I've done just that with the Wilhelm version. I seem to understand it's message a bit better now.

I think JJ Semple is right. This is a book on the arousing of the kundalini, albeit written in Chinese taoist alchemical language.

I may need to re-think my approach to meditation, and of the obvious life-changing result of such an experiment.

[lifeforce]

Well, I've done just that with the Wilhelm version.

 

I must add that the commentary by Jung is misleading and should be discarded when reading the text.

Anyone looking to practice neidan from the teachings in this book, would be well advised to remember this.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I think the key to the backward flowimg breathing JJ describes is to let the front muscles of the diaphragm guide the inhalation, and then let the rear muscles drive the exhalation. I feel a slight pumping/massaging of the kidneys, and something very subtle going on with the spine. To wax poetic it is like the wind blowing up the side of a tree trunk. This in turn seems to stimulate an energetic response inside the spine itself. There is definitely something to JJ's method.

 

Is anyone else using the Golden Flower system? Are your experiences similar? I just started this a couple days ago, but have been doing a ton of breath regulation qigong lately which no doubt helps.

 

P.S. Please stick to the topic of Golden Flower. There are plenty of other threads on kabbalah and tibetan buddhism etc...

[joeblast]

Ger, hope you're doing well bro With regard to "front muscles of the diaphragm" have a look at this:

 

 

The physical setup of the diaphragm "muscle" has longer fibers in back, down bottom. More conducive to calmsmoothlong breath to start there, even just looking at it from a physical standpoint.

 

Try to guide the inhalation from the bottom where the diaphragm overlaps with the psoas. I've found the most efficient way to do this is to have the breath propagate from one end of the diaphragm to the other - funny, trying to do front to back feels almost nauseating for me. Going bottom/back towards front/top, though...is very deep, very smooth - it allows you to pull breath to great depths right from the initiation of breath and also more closely integrates the psoas muscle into the breath (which also helps rooting/grounding.)

 

Pulling from the very bottom also had the benefit of not requiring overt muscular buffering of the breath at various points (e.g. sinuses) and promotes a smooth, contiguous breath. Looking again at the diaphragm above, part of relaxing, and relaxing your internal organs, is "mitigating the openings of the diaphragm," i.e. venal caval foramen, esophageal hiatus - by starting the breath at the psoas-crus overlap you're just about having gravity let (assist) diaphragmatic motion glide subtly past these openings in the diaphragm - and that is the start of mastering the transitions between inspiration and expiration, calming and smoothing them until they become indistinguishable, and then the probability equations for manifesting super stillness become tilted a little more in your favor

 

I say "super" and not "supreme" or "complete and utter stillness" because well...there's different levels of stillness, and each with its own...ah, movement So "super" means "as still as you can imagine."

 

Basically I'm of the opinion that if you start up front there, you have that quasi-knot in the diaphragm and it leads to too much tension as you lengthen the breath, leading to that 'hiccup' of resolving-motion you get out of the diaphragm when you slow things down enough before learning to gloss over that transition

 

As I understand from my experience, the backward flowing motion (i.e. as YJM describes the 'wind' path) is enhanced more by that psoas-diaphragm focus upon beginning the inhale (Its also quite applicable for reverse breathing but the hiccup manifests a little differently as you work to depths there.)

[Oolong Rabbit]

Hey Dan,

 

I was actually going to email you about this, so I am glad you chimed in. I was also looking at the very same picture of the diaphragm you posted when I was typing my post out. Too funny. Anyhow, I played with what I think you are saying, but the flow feels a bit broken to me. At least in terms of using it for the backward flowing method of the golden flower JJ describes. It could be that I am misinterpreting you as I find it difficult to interpret physiology at times. A 3d model would help.

 

I was also very curious if there are any taoist references to coupling reverse breathing to the backward flowing method, even though JJ just used post natal breathing. I know you have been digging into Charles Luk's book. Have you come across anything like this? I think this would work too, but then again it may be too yang and maybe stoke the fires too fast.

[joeblast]

Synchronicities are funny

 

For a little 3d,

 

 

Also consider the vertical locations of the openings:

 

vena caval foramen at the level of T8

 

(xiphoid process at T9, though its a T6 dermatome)

 

esophageal hiatus at T10

 

aortic hiatus at T12

 

and the psoas connects with T12-L1-2-3-4-5

 

So you can see the anatomical overlap pretty plainly

 

 

while we're on connections, might as well display the psoas' femoral connection on the medial aspect,

 

 

 

I would suggest not worrying about "flow" while paying attention to the physiology. I'm of the opinion that paying attention to the physiology is a good place to start as it will build good muscle memory, once good muscle memory is achieved then it gradually becomes forgotten about, for the most part. So even in doing the longevity breathing, I spent a huge chunk of time ONLY paying attention to physiology, basically "trying to execute a perfect breath" via focused awareness on physical mechanisms.

 

Sure, empty your mind and all that - but I say, establish this rigor first and there is no try! After executing a perfect breath, execute another. And another. Then things get very harmonious, and before you know it you are suspended glowing animation

 

As far as I'm getting from TY, there isnt a ton of need for a wind path circulation so long as you're doing everything else correctly. YJM states the reverse mco-flow will help cool in a kan-li fashion but as I understand things so long as you can clearly and consistently enter significant stillness and also have the mco-fire "reach and check the penis" then most common obstacles will be avoided in conserving the generative force.

 

In that context the real "reverse flow" is the reversing of generative force from its natural outlet, "turning back the light" assists the generative force becoming and filling vitality, and ultimately the light returns to manifest at the seat of awareness. So its not necessarily referring to MCO at all...at least that's how I understand things right now.

 

As to the postnatal breathing, imo its a natural and deep extension of how I'm describing all of these breath processes. Embryonic Breathing being rather prenatal, postnatal extending deep into the psoas (accompany that with the air passage disconnect to further reduce turbulence!)

 

I basically just got Cleary's book a few weeks ago and havent delved very deeply (=much at all) just yet, so exactly what 'the backward flowing method' is in the context isnt 100% clear to me right now.)

[gj551]

theres a new translation done by a chinese person

 

http://webspace.webring.com/people/da/akrishi/goflower/gf_intro.htm

[Red Pheonix]

I thought I would offer my two cents on the topic. This is just 1 perspective, I'm sure this particular cultivation manifests differently to different people. My intention is to address the general way in going about this, not to provide details on the method.

 

I've learned 2 different methods, although very similar, one from Qingcheng and one from Maoshan. I cultivated it in what I would consider a short amount of time although that was only due to the right foundation work. I would say that this is easier for someone who's a strong meditator and has developed/opened all 3 dantians to a reasonable degree. I followed a simple method and did not make it technical at all, I practiced in simplicity for some time. I would think that a technical process would preclude one from being able to attain this because it distracts us; you can not experience a thing if you believe you already understand it having never known it (the whole child like nature is needed). It also never activated in practice; I never worried about anything activating, I simply enjoyed. The beautiful thing is that it activated when I put my hand on a students head one day, as if it was some divine medicine that would pour out only when everything was right. I found myself standing between 2 worlds, a large golden disc of light rotated in front of my minds eye and consumed me. Needless to say, it was the most amazing thing I had ever experienced up to that point.

 

My best advice would be to learn the meditation method and practice in simplicity without the desire to cultivate this attainment. Details are great and I'm all for the technical knowledge, but making this overly technical will most likely hinder you.

[adept]

Bump

[Cheshire Cat]

Bump

Yes, bump

Edited December 1, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[joeblast]

I gave my book to my sister in law last year, based on her line of inquiry about meditation in general I decided that was the best book I had on hand to give her. I will have to buy another.

[deci belle]

Ok guys and gals,

I've been fascinated with this for a long time, but I'm only now considering doing it diligently.

I know this has been briefly talked about in other posts, but I'd like to go into a little greater detail. What experiences have you all had with this method, and which translation do you think is best? I have both Wilhelm and Cleary, but I think I heard there's an Eva Wong version too. Anyway, I'd love some input and please keep it civil and intelligent. None of this "well, you're stupid 'cause Cleary's stupid" stuff. Thanks.

 

But here's what I'd like to get deeper knowledge in:

 

Wilhelm's version claims to have a teacher behind it explaining it to him.

Also, it describes "circulating the light" which I am assuming is either the microcosmic orbit or a very similar practice. (we can get into what the light is later, as I've heard some dispute from time to time)

 

Cleary's version claims that Wilhelm was working with an incorrect translation or something, and that his scholarship and proficiency in Chinese allow him to do a better job.

Also, it describes "turning the light around" which I am assuming is something like inward gazing or Zen-like meditation.

 

Both are good practices, but which is supposed to be "The Secret of the Golden Flower" ??? Peace.

 

The secret of the golden flower is turning the light of creation itself around so as to illuminate its source.

 

The term "turning the light around" is attributed to the adept Wenshi.

 

…Although many people benefited from Laozi’s teachings, two stand out: Shaoyang Zushi 少陽祖師 (whose original name was Wang Xuanfu 王玄甫) and Wenshi Zhenren 文始真人 (whose original name was Yin Xi 尹喜). These masters started two immortal cultivation teaching lineages: Shaoyang Lineage and Wenshi Lineage.

 

The Shaoyang Lineage is also called Quanzhen Pai 全真派, and is commonly known as the Complete Reality Lineage.

 

The Wenshi Lineage is also called Yin Xianpai 隱仙派, the Hidden Immortals Lineage, or Youlong Pai 猶龍派, the 'Just Like a Dragon Lineage' as the masters in this lineage were hermits, just like hidden dragons. Wenshi Zhenren taught Yijing prediction techniques and internal alchemy cultivation secrets to Mayi Daozhe Li He 麻衣道者李和. Mayi Daozhe passed his practice on to Xiyi Xiansheng Chen Tuan 希夷先生陳摶. Haichanzi Liu Cao, from the Complete Reality Lineage, passed his internal alchemy practices on to Chen Tuan 陳摶. Then Chen Tuan passed his lineage to Huolong Zhenren 火龍真人.

 

 

If one actually reads Cleary's version completely and studies the footnotes and references to the Wilhelm version's translation… it's not difficult to discern which is a direct and authentic teaching and which is "…a garbled translation of a truncated version of a corrupted recension of the original work."

 

As one who has practiced and continues to practice turning the light around to illuminate its source, I can assure you that the document that was provided for Cleary's translation and its transmission into the lexicon of English-speakers is the work of enlightening activity in the world.

 

Cleary even admits that "However immature his rendition may have been, I am deeply indebted to Richard Wilhelm for introducing this extraordinary text to the West, for it could have gone unnoticed for decades, even centuries, amidst the hundreds upon hundreds of Taoist and Buddhist treatises awaiting translation."

 

As is the case with the works represented in the Taoist and Buddhist canons, this teaching has the hallmarks of thorough intellectual depth reflecting not only the experience of nonpsychological awareness in terms of evidences of efficacy, but in terms of real-life applications of the florescence of the Golden Flower practice that is valuable for those who have already experienced its awakening.

 

There is nothing new in terms of the practice of "turning the light around" found in the Golden Flower teaching not found established in the Complete Reality teachings since the time of Wenshi.

 

Turning the light around to illumine the source of awareness is none other than the practice of alchemic "reversal". All the elements of Complete Reality taoism are used in terms elucidating the text of the book.

 

To treat the Golden Flower teaching as other than everyday ordinary "mind only" spiritual refinement is to admit one's thorough ignorance of the Taoist and Buddhist canon. I say this because I see further and repeated references to this teaching in terms of energy work.

 

There is simply nothing special about this teaching outside of the traditions of the Northern and Southern schools of Complete Reality and the Hidden Immortals Lineage. When one turns the light around to illuminate its source and follows one's own light of awareness to the limit of the limitless, one finds open selfless immaterial unborn aware potential energy hovering in stillness perpetually on the brink of going into action.

 

Those who go this far have gone as far as it is possible to go. Those who know the Changeless are equal to buddhas past, present and future. Those who have the innate capacity to practice "turning the light around" should hasten to do so.

 

Not only is its application firmly anchored in dealing with everyday ordinary situations, the seventh paragraph of the first chapter, "The Celestial Mind" states: "First establish a firm foothold in daily activities within society. Only then can you cultivate reality and understand essence."

 

If anyone is studying Cleary's volume and has any questions concerning this practice, please do not hesitate to PM me.❤

 

 

 

ednote: add quotes from the http://www.masterwu....talLineage.html

Edited December 9, 2012 by deci belle

[adept]

The Cleary translation states many times throughout the book that this is NOT a meditation practice per se, but a search for the source. A Taoist/Buddhist inward looking self inquiry method especially written for the layperson, and probably for one without regular contact with a teacher.

I'm glad I've re-discovered this book. It's probably going to save me a lot of wasted time on meditation 'methods'.

[Guest allan]

The Cleary translation states many times throughout the book that this is NOT a meditation practice per se, but a search for the source. A Taoist/Buddhist inward looking self inquiry method especially written for the layperson, and probably for one without regular contact with a teacher.

 

 

 

If what is stated above is true, then it is one of the most misleading statements I have ever read about the Secret of the Golden Flower. Thought the translator knew better than that, but he showed ignorance.

 

Since without meditation how can one ever hopes to learn how to circulate the Light?

[deci belle]

If what is stated above is true, then it is one of the most misleading statements I have ever read about the Secret of the Golden Flower. Thought the translator knew better than that, but he showed ignorance.

 

Since without meditation how can one ever hopes to learn how to circulate the Light?

 

"Circulating the light" …would that be a quote from the Wilhelm version, allan? The correct and precise term is "turn the light around". The adept who coined the phrase lived over two thousand years ago. The light is NOT circulated in any way shape or form. It is immaterial essence of awareness. You do not turn it around either: it is you reversing your orientation relative to the essence of consciousness itself. NOTHING IS CIRCULATED.

 

One is never to employ hope. Period. Ever. Practice is not about hope. I'm afraid you have missed the entire point of this meditation. It may be possible that you are not quite ready to effect the teaching yet. Meditation, per se, has nothing to do with realization, much less taking over creation to embody enlightening being in ordinary situations. Meditation is a temporary expedient to train the errant ego-reflective mentality that it is not the focus or identity of the self— meditation is not a method to attain something.

 

The Golden Flower teaching is one's own living quality partaking of the potential embedded in creation itself to adapt to conditions without cloying involvement in karmic momentum. It is not a matter of being enlightened. Sudden realization is only an indication of one's present harmony with unborn selfless essential aware nature. This is not a method for attaining transcendent experience. This is employing the transcendent itself as one's own presence unbeknownst to anyone.

 

I suggest you actually study my post, dear. Your questions seem redundant and out of place considering what I wrote.

 

Which translator "showed ignorance"?

 

What is misleading, and how did you avoid being misled in this case?

 

Such a kind comment by Rainbowvein and such a clarity is not easily come by, I might add, allan.

 

 

 

 

ed note: change "embodying" to "embody", in the 3rd paragraph

Edited December 10, 2012 by deci belle

[WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1]

Hello Deci Belle,

 

"The secret of the golden flower is turning the light of creation itself around so as to illuminate its source.

 

The term "turning the light around" is attributed to the adept Wenshi."

 

Is the basic premise to maintain awareness upon where your very own awareness is coming from? (IME an area behind the eyes and slightly lower than them, possibly the pineal gland?) And then to maintain your awareness upon that source throughout your daily experiences?

This would align itself with other writings that tell you to never lose the "source progenitor".

In this way a person seems to be able to elevate themselves above the situation entirely and address people from THE NEXT LEVEL

 

 

I am wondering because isn't a main taoist theme to maintain your awareness within your LDT and for me the turning around of the light seems to keep my attention in my head. Then again I may have it all wrong

 

Also I am excited to see this thread emerge because I just bought the book 2 days ago! But apparently y'all are telling me the Wilhelm version is not nearly as good as Cleary's and of course I bought the WIlhelm...

 

 

Thanks,

theNERD

Edited December 10, 2012 by theNERD

[deci belle]

haha! hi Nerd~ oh well, c'est la vie❤

 

The Source Progenitor is taken out of Master Lu's One Hundred Character Tablet. There is a fine version of it with commentary by Liu I-Ming starting on page 239 of Vitality Energy Spirit, translated by Thomas Cleary.

 

The first nine lines comprise half of the text, which uncannily echos the sixteenth chapter of the TTC:

 

Nurturing energy, forget talk and fixation.

Conquer the mind, do nondoing.

In activity and quietude, know the source progenitor.

There is no thing; whom else do you seek?

Real constancy should respond to people;

in responding to people, it is essential not to get confused.

When you don't get confused, your nature is naturally stable;

when your nature is stable, energy naturally returns.

When energy returns, elixir spontaneously crystalizes.

 

The source progenitor is the True Lead, the mind of tao, objective awareness, represented as the middle line of the trigram Water. Losing the source progenitor is losing objective awareness. This is how ordinary existence perpetuates itself.

 

Your own awareness is aware itself. This is unborn mind. There is no other mind. Deluded people don't see their delusion. That's what delusion is. Being awake is seeing delusion. Seeing delusion is enlightening activity. When you see delusion by objective awareness, it cannot fool you, so you don't go along. Not going along is reversal. Seeing delusion is itself "turning the light around to illumine its source".

 

The reason for "turning the light around" is to recover this source progenitor of objective awareness to use the light to see delusion. Creation itself is delusion. It has form but no inherent reality. The absolute is itself the source of awareness. It is utterly immaterial, yet real. The Heart Sutra states, "Form is formless; formlessness is form.

 

Turning the light around is seeing through phenomena without negating appearances. Neither form nor formless, reality is Suchness as is. Enlightening being is just seeing reality as is; not following the momentum of Creation. When you turn the light around, the world looks the same, but you don't go along with it. Why? Because turning the light around is following the same light that is creation; following it in reverse, there is no birth and death, so one lives amidst yin and yang without going along with yin and yang. It is incredibly simple, yet who can turn this light around?

[deci belle]

mr Nerds said:

In this way a person seems to be able to elevate themselves above the situation entirely and address people fromTHE NEXT LEVEL

 

THIS IS EGO'S PERSPECTIVE THROUGH AND THROUGH. When that doesn't work, that's when we hear about it in the news.❤

 

Non!! Non!! Non!! hahahhahahhaaa!!!❤❤ Noo000o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0oo!! Mon ami~ please. One deals with phantoms every bit as real as you are in your everyday ordinary situations. There is no seems about it. One is embedded in the situation. HELL, you are the situation. Only you see it from your perspective whether it is objective or deluded. So, naturally the sane choice is to see through delusion, hmmmm?!!

[WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1]

"The reason for "turning the light around" is to recover this source progenitor of objective awareness to use the light to see delusion. Creation itself is delusion. It has form but no inherent reality. The absolute is itself the source of awareness. It is utterly immaterial, yet real. The Heart Sutra states, "Form is formless; formlessness is form."

I really like this

 

So all there is to do is rest in objective awareness, for what else should I seek?

 

mr Nerds said:

 

 

THIS IS EGO'S PERSPECTIVE THROUGH AND THROUGH. When that doesn't work, that's when we hear about it in the news.❤

 

Non!! Non!! Non!! hahahhahahhaaa!!!❤❤ Noo000o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0oo!! Mon ami~ please. One deals with phantoms every bit as real as you are in your everyday ordinary situations. There is no seems about it. One is embedded in the situation. HELL, you are the situation. Only you see it from your perspective whether it is objective or deluded. So, naturally the sane choice is to see through delusion, hmmmm?!!

 

hehehehe I deserved that

I need to make more sane decisions in my life...

 

thank you very much for your reply I truly appreciate it!!

 

theNERD

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Deci Belle, i'm picking up a lot of french vibes...

 

 

Are you canadian? (im being obtuse cuz it makes em laugh shhh jsut go with it)