Secret of the Golden Flower

[~jK~]

Vajrahridaya,

 

As it seems you like to fiddle with Tibetian Buddhism - I am wondering if you've seen any of "The Secret of the Golden Flower" material in Tibetian Buddhism ?

 

From what I've read - China sent a wife for the leader of Tibet, in the 13th century, to try to calm the feudal styled nation down. Supposedly she carried a book on Buddhism.

~

A bit over 20 years ago, when I began my formal education into meditation, I practiced the Savasana during which I began to have Out of Body Experiences (OBE or Astral Projections) It doesn't take much of a leap to see the purpose of OBE's to be in choosing the next life.

Also - The drawings within "The Secret of the Golden Flower" point to this possibility... To be honest, it fits within the Tibetian style of reincarnation like a glove.

[Sunya]

Vajrahridaya,

 

As it seems you like to fiddle with Tibetian Buddhism - I am wondering if you've seen any of "The Secret of the Golden Flower" material in Tibetian Buddhism ?

 

From what I've read - China sent a wife for the leader of Tibet, in the 13th century, to try to calm the feudal styled nation down. Supposedly she carried a book on Buddhism.

~

A bit over 20 years ago, when I began my formal education into meditation, I practiced the Savasana during which I began to have Out of Body Experiences (OBE or Astral Projections) It doesn't take much of a leap to see the purpose of OBE's to be in choosing the next life.

Also - The drawings within "The Secret of the Golden Flower" point to this possibility... To be honest, it fits within the Tibetian style of reincarnation like a glove.

 

there are many Vajrayana practies to be practiced at death. that is the purpose of Dream Yoga so there is clarity and also there has to be recognition of the Clear Light which occurs at the moment of death, if the Clear Light is not recognized then other practices are given for a high rebirth.. Chod practice is meant to kill attachment to the physical body. Phowa is like an OBE technique where consciousness is shot out of the crown of the head, meant to be done at the moment of death to project consciousness to a pureland where enlightenment can be hastily achieved.

 

i've had a couple spontaneous OBEs but need to do some Chod or something as the attachment to the physical body is tough to break for me.

 

 

Fine OK. Talk away.

 

I just do not see how awakening the kundalini is shallow. I cannot see any other "way".

 

April, pipe up!!

 

there are many other ways, working with energy is only one.

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya,

 

As it seems you like to fiddle with Tibetian Buddhism - I am wondering if you've seen any of "The Secret of the Golden Flower" material in Tibetian Buddhism ?

 

From what I've read - China sent a wife for the leader of Tibet, in the 13th century, to try to calm the feudal styled nation down. Supposedly she carried a book on Buddhism.

~

A bit over 20 years ago, when I began my formal education into meditation, I practiced the Savasana during which I began to have Out of Body Experiences (OBE or Astral Projections) It doesn't take much of a leap to see the purpose of OBE's to be in choosing the next life.

Also - The drawings within "The Secret of the Golden Flower" point to this possibility... To be honest, it fits within the Tibetian style of reincarnation like a glove.

 

I was thinking that today when I was looking over what people were saying about "The Secret of the Golden Flower" and it seems to co-relate. It wouldn't surprise me. Taoism and Vajrayana and Shaivite Tantra co-relate in a lot of ways.

[~jK~]

[Jade02]

I forgot to add that: Eva Wong's book "Cultivating Stillness" is also in English as well as ; Chinese language, symbology, poetry, Bagua, and alchemical descriptions of the subjects.

 

 

 

I got that book, but I don't understand it. What does it mean when it say that you can fly into heaven. And about making rock sentient beings. I understand the results of the techniques, but I don't understand the techniques themselves.

[~jK~]

I got that book, but I don't understand it. What does it mean when it say that you can fly into heaven. And about making rock sentient beings. I understand the results of the techniques, but I don't understand the techniques themselves.

 

 

Jade02,

Please send me the page numbers so that I don't need to read the book to find a few words. I'll try to give you the translation key - which is based on comparison.

Thanks.

~jK~

[Magitek]

I need some Secret of Golden FLower support! Any help?

 

In Wilhelms translation it says somewhere that when meditating to clench the teeth (!) . How can this be right? The laying of the tongue on the palatte and the setting of the "plum line" on the bridge of the nose seem natural but this doesn't. I usually close my mouth but my teeth are resting apart.

 

I am open to correction. thanks.

[~jK~]

Edited August 11, 2009 by ~jK~

[findley]

Hmmm, I gave my (inferior) wilhelm translation away and kept my cleary-- so I cannot read the section you are referring to.

 

I would encourage you to remember, however, that the practice of tSotGF is a 'living' one-- and so formal sitting and meditation methods become obsolete. You are learning to carry the practice with you throughout the day-- as you live your 'new' life.

 

So do not over-emphasize specific techniques that are suggested to you by wilhelms translation. They are not important. Even the breath is not important-- only the cultivation of the light.

 

 

these are just my opinions

(-I think that this thread is rather dedicated to a corrupt interpretation of the practice, so it is important to say.)

[Vajrahridaya]

 

So do not over-emphasize specific techniques that are suggested to you by wilhelms translation. They are not important. Even the breath is not important-- only the cultivation of the light.

these are just my opinions

(-I think that this thread is rather dedicated to a corrupt interpretation of the practice, so it is important to say.)

 

Breath is always important... in one way or another. It's always quite key.

[~jK~]

Breath is always important... in one way or another. It's always quite key.

 

I Agree - the 3 constants are the mind, body and breath.

The Symbols are 2 tigers on a leash held by a dragon.

The variables are how to use them to make the elixir.

Methinks that first they must be fine tuned.

Pure vegan food, pure water, pure mind.

 

Timing is the missing element.

Patience, a tradition,

Is expected.

 

Is Drawn

by suspending

2 swords over a beating heart.

 

http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=patience

 

Chinese joke of how foreigners try to meditate with the bio-Chemistry of a death experience (AKA: Adrenalin) circulating in their body from the beefsteak they just ate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A small Gift: A perpetual Chinese Calendar - it goes from 1900 to 2060.

Take a little time to explore the website before you download - it will make it easier - especially as he gives 2 versions: one is for computers that cannot write in Chinese & the other one is for computers that can.

 

http://www.lunarcal.org/SiteMap.html

 

It is easily programable to your location ... If any problem, e-mail me.

 

It was first developed in 2637 BC.

I find it very handy for many things such as:

I Allways go out girl hunting betwen the 15th (full moon) and the 22... it never misses with the misses

 

If you study this just a little - you will find a key to the study of Tao in the timing of the universe.

Chinese medicine is based on this, life cycles (5 X 12 = 60) is based on it - as well as the seasonal comparisons.

Spring is a time for beginning

Summer is developing fire.

Fall compared to harvest.

Winter is death.

Dong Zhi (translates to Eastern Child coming) is Winter Soltice AKA: Christmas.

It seems complicated but that is just because it is new.

All Chinese holidays etc revolve around this calendar.

I've used this program for about 10 years, on many types of computers, with no problem.

"The Chinese calendar comprises 60-year cycles called the Sexagenary Cycle. Each year of the cycle is given a name and is made up of two parts - the Celestial Stem and the Earthly Branch. There are 10 Celestial Stems and 12 Earthly Branches:-"

 

By the way, I am an OX. http://www.squidoo.com/2009YearOfTheOx

Edited August 12, 2009 by ~jK~

[nac]

What do you think of this online translation?

 

http://hk.geocities.com/akrishi0/goflower/eng/index.htm

 

Sorry if this has been asked before.

[Sunya]

What do you think of this online translation?

 

http://hk.geocities.com/akrishi0/goflower/eng/index.htm

 

Sorry if this has been asked before.

 

 

well its not finished, there are 13 chapters, so 6 are missing

 

I can already spot some major differences. for example:

 

Akrishi: When a mortal takes shelter in an embryo, the primordial spirit resides in the square inch (in between the eyebrows), and the discerning spirit resides in the lower heart. The lower heart of blood and flesh, is of shape like a big peach, with the lungs to cover and shelter it, the liver to assist it, and the intestines to bear it.

 

Cleary's translation is simply: This is possible only by seeing essence. This is what is called the original face.

 

another example:

 

Akrishi: This ever and again reverting light can still be practised when having no mental image, moreover there is the reverting light when really showing mental image.

 

Cleary: If you can look back again and again into the source of mind, whatever you are doing, not sticking to any image of person or self at all, then this is "turning the light around wherever you are" This is the finest practice.

 

 

In the first example, Akrishi adds a lot of detail.. where's this guy get all that extra information? he probably added all that detail because he 'thinks' he knows what the original author meant, but Cleary translated the text in the specific Chan/ early Taoist context that it was written in. I trust Cleary's translation, he knew what he was doing, and he has notes in the back of the book for each sentence explaining what is meant. the second example is much more clear in Cleary's (clear Cleary ha!) translation. Cleary writes his translation as an actual method that is meant to be understood, not just a rough translation via Babelfish. Just my opinion.

[~jK~]

well its not finished, there are 13 chapters, so 6 are missing

 

I can already spot some major differences. for example:

 

Akrishi: When a mortal takes shelter in an embryo, the primordial spirit resides in the square inch (in between the eyebrows), and the discerning spirit resides in the lower heart. The lower heart of blood and flesh, is of shape like a big peach, with the lungs to cover and shelter it, the liver to assist it, and the intestines to bear it.

 

Cleary's translation is simply: This is possible only by seeing essence. This is what is called the original face.

 

another example:

 

Akrishi: This ever and again reverting light can still be practised when having no mental image, moreover there is the reverting light when really showing mental image.

 

Cleary: If you can look back again and again into the source of mind, whatever you are doing, not sticking to any image of person or self at all, then this is "turning the light around wherever you are" This is the finest practice.

In the first example, Akrishi adds a lot of detail.. where's this guy get all that extra information? he probably added all that detail because he 'thinks' he knows what the original author meant, but Cleary translated the text in the specific Chan/ early Taoist context that it was written in. I trust Cleary's translation, he knew what he was doing, and he has notes in the back of the book for each sentence explaining what is meant. the second example is much more clear in Cleary's (clear Cleary ha!) translation. Cleary writes his translation as an actual method that is meant to be understood, not just a rough translation via Babelfish. Just my opinion.

 

 

Each translator has their own perspective - although the 2nd, 3rd etc has the added advantage of seeing the others work. And the obligation not to copy...

 

The original being the best as translated by Wilhelm. but Cleary's 3rd dimension comes next etc - etc...

 

Cleary's best work is with the I Ching series where, to the best of my knowledge, he is the original translator.

THE BUDDHIST I CHING, THE TAOIST I CHING and The I Ching of organization (Confucianism)

 

Akrishi sounds Japanese - no Chinese would take a Japanese name.

[Vajrahridaya]

Each translator has their own perspective - although the 2nd, 3rd etc has the added advantage of seeing the others work. And the obligation not to copy...

 

The original being the best as translated by Wilhelm. but Cleary's 3rd dimension comes next etc - etc...

 

Cleary's best work is with the I Ching series where, to the best of my knowledge, he is the original translator.

THE BUDDHIST I CHING, THE TAOIST I CHING and The I Ching of organization (Confucianism)

 

Akrishi sounds Japanese - no Chinese would take a Japanese name.

 

There's a Buddhist I-Ching??

[~jK~]

There's a Buddhist I-Ching??

Yes: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Ching-Shamb...s/dp/1570626030

It is written by a Confucian scholar that later became a Buddhist monk. Translated by Cleary.

 

It gives the Confucian (yang) perspective as compared to the meditation (Yin) perspectives of the examination process of the I Ching - In Chinese - I Ching is called Ba Gua or The Language of 8

 

The I Ching math was the foundation of the computer chip... 8, 32, 64 etc...

It begins with Binary math: 2 X 2 = 4 X 2 = 8 X4 = 32 x 2 = 64 X2 = 128...

It is in Scientific American - May of 1970.

 

The I Ching is also a double helix - the same as a DNA molecule - http://www.karolynzeng.com/universalcode.html

 

DNA: http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/illustrati...nastructure.jpg

 

And the same shape as a directional antennae: http://www.digdice.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/helix2.jpg

 

As well as The double helix nebula: http://www.universetoday.com/am/uploads/double_helix.jpg

 

OF WHICH - if you add these together- it also points to Astrology influencing the DNA - AND to take another step - That if Life is Energy - it would be attracted by alike genetics - as in have a tendency to reincarnate.

 

The Chinese live by this: We create our own future heaven and hell through how we care for our children.

Edited August 12, 2009 by ~jK~

[Vajrahridaya]

I've heard all this before and it's all very interesting, but Islam has math and Kabbalah too to prove their texts are real and true.

 

It's all quite interesting though. From personal experience, the I-Ching seems to be one of the most magical books that I've ever come across. As a Buddhist, I still throw the I-Ching around to get some clarity on some hard hitting questions.

 

It's quiet astounding!

This version of I-Ching is what I've been using my whole life.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[~jK~]

I've heard all this before and it's all very interesting, but Islam has math and Kabbalah too to prove their texts are real and true.

 

It's all quite interesting though. From personal experience, the I-Ching seems to be one of the most magical books that I've ever come across. As a Buddhist, I still throw the I-Ching around to get some clarity on some hard hitting questions.

 

It's quiet astounding!

 

Learn the math in relation to what they say and you will not need to throw sticks & stones - you will know the answer even before you can go to find your yarrow sticks.

[Vajrahridaya]

Learn the math in relation to what they say and you will not need to throw sticks & stones - you will know the answer even before you can go to find your yarrow sticks.

 

I generally do... but I like the ritual and I like the fortification that comes from an outside source reflecting the inward contemplation.

[JustARandomPanda]

Can anyone recommend a website or exercises that help one be able to sit in full lotus?

[Magitek]

Yes: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Ching-Shamb...s/dp/1570626030

It is written by a Confucian scholar that later became a Buddhist monk. Translated by Cleary.

 

It gives the Confucian (yang) perspective as compared to the meditation (Yin) perspectives of the examination process of the I Ching - In Chinese - I Ching is called Ba Gua or The Language of 8

 

The I Ching math was the foundation of the computer chip... 8, 32, 64 etc...

It begins with Binary math: 2 X 2 = 4 X 2 = 8 X4 = 32 x 2 = 64 X2 = 128...

It is in Scientific American - May of 1970.

 

The I Ching is also a double helix - the same as a DNA molecule - http://www.karolynzeng.com/universalcode.html

 

DNA: http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/illustrati...nastructure.jpg

 

And the same shape as a directional antennae: http://www.digdice.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/helix2.jpg

 

As well as The double helix nebula: http://www.universetoday.com/am/uploads/double_helix.jpg

 

OF WHICH - if you add these together- it also points to Astrology influencing the DNA - AND to take another step - That if Life is Energy - it would be attracted by alike genetics - as in have a tendency to reincarnate.

 

The Chinese live by this: We create our own future heaven and hell through how we care for our children.

 

We have the five elements/pentagram, Hexamgrams of the I Ching, the 10 Sephirot of the Kabbalah.

 

How does it relate? Or are they just abitrary divisions of the whole universe?

 

Where is that 1970 Scientific American article on the I Ching and binary code? Studying computer science soon so this would be particularly interesting.

[Magitek]

Hmmm, I gave my (inferior) wilhelm translation away and kept my cleary-- so I cannot read the section you are referring to.

 

I would encourage you to remember, however, that the practice of tSotGF is a 'living' one-- and so formal sitting and meditation methods become obsolete. You are learning to carry the practice with you throughout the day-- as you live your 'new' life.

 

I both agree and disagree. During the day you have things the tend to, I think it is better to never mind anything else. How can we attent to more then one thing? "awareness", "mindfulness", "consciousness" are just conceptual, I'll leave them out.

 

So do not over-emphasize specific techniques that are suggested to you by wilhelms translation. They are not important. Even the breath is not important-- only the cultivation of the light.

these are just my opinions

(-I think that this thread is rather dedicated to a corrupt interpretation of the practice, so it is important to say.)

 

But doesn't the light come of itself? And as for the circulation, I understood this happens when you stop interfering.

 

I agree the breath is not important. We use the breath to control the body, we are like puppets moved by breath control. This is how I see it.

 

But at some point during the day, even if it is only for 15 minutes, there comes a point where we no longer need to control the body. Our work is done, our friends and family aren't around .etc. So we can let it go for a bit. And we can attend to doing nothing.

 

The original text had pictures of men sitting, surely there is a meaning?

 

It talks about the breath slowing and heart slowing untill they stop altogether. So clinical death, or perhaps just coming close to death.

 

This is what happened to U G Krishnamurti, his body died clinically and then the kundalini took charge. Amongst the happenings where spontaneous yoga movements, mudras .etc. He said that the people in india simply imitated the natural re-birth process making various yoga systems. Semples experience doesn't sound as extreme as U Gs yet it still sounds very real.

 

These are just my opinions of course. I believe "enlightenment" is a physiological process.

 

I'm not talking about evolution, I don't give a shit about that. The natural sciences I will sweep away too.

 

In one of his conversations U G said that the animal desires and aggressions left his brain. Gnostic christian texts also mention humans being different from animals. So maybe this can actually happen physically, rather then trying to suppress which has failed miserably throughout all human history.

 

BTW edited out the end as it sounded a little offensive. Also Mikelz I have been reading your posts. Sorry I mention U G so much.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Magitek

[Sunya]

Can anyone recommend a website or exercises that help one be able to sit in full lotus?

 

can try these

[~jK~]

Post was too far off topic -

deleted by ~jK~

Edited August 16, 2009 by ~jK~

[Magitek]

What has the Hebrew religion got to do with this? (10 Sephirot of the Kabbalah)

 

I don't know. I wish I did. I'm thinking too hard. Someone out there might hjave an answer but I'll have to let it go.

 

 

It is all of the Scientific American's May issue 1970 - the entire issue is the article. This is when Schottky announced the theory used to invent the transistor.

 

Well I'l lguess I'll have to order that if I want it because they aren't giving it away for free.

 

I found another reference to I Ching in the Scientific American: Martin Gardner, "Mathematics of the I-Ching," Scientific American, Jan. 1974,