Stigweard

FR~EE Ebook ... "Neiye, Inner Cultivation"

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It's an evocative poem. However, if I respond to it, I will just criticize it up and down and the length of that would be enough to fill a book. A better approach would be to ask people, "When you read a text like that, what problem are you looking to solve? What is missing in your life?" Then I would prefer to respond to the answer to that question rather than to the poem directly. The reason for that is that everyone will read this poem differently based on what they believe and what they intend to achieve. The poem will take on totally different meanings based on what intentions and beliefs the person reading it has. That's why I don't think it's a good idea to respond to the poem as if there was just one poem. There are as many of this poem as there are people reading it.

 

For me, this poem doesn't work, because my insight operates on a higher level than what the poem talks about. So the poem is simply irrelevant to me, at best, but at worst, it is just plain wrong or even harmful. At the same time, when I first got this poem in the book form, I really enjoyed it and benefited from reading it.

 

I much prefer to deal with the live heart than to deal with dead concepts. If I interact with the person, I am dealing with a live heart. If I respond to a poem, I am dealing with dead concepts. When I read the poem, the live heart is there, but if I respond to it, none of you will hear it. So if I respond to the poem in a way you can hear, it's definitely going to be a response to a dead concept.

 

 

incredibly interesting and intriguing thoughs. Im not sure I agree. When you tune an instrument(read person) don't u ..yes I get u totally now..have to listen to the particular characteristics of that particular instrument :D

but it is nice to study and play on whatever instrument also..right so what do u use as a guideline?

those dead concepts of yours where do you find them? tell me please about the higher plane, is it the field of actualized interpersonal exchange versus a mental and isolated state?

 

As many poems as persons, that's nice.

 

" I would focus on analyzing and reflecting on those intentions far more than on the poem itself."

 

excuse me but I thought that was what reading the poem was all about?

 

Im confused. I often am.

 

just curious..is "higher" in this case by any means almost synonymous with specific?

Edited by rain

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Historically, the Nei Yeh is an amazing text. It is older than the Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching), and yet it is undeniably mystic in orientation. This was the book that changed everything a decade ago for Western Taoist scholars, and proved finally that Taoism has always been more than just a pretty philosophy. Before this, the (rather silly) academic consensus was that the Religious Taoists stole the Dao De Jing and attached a bunch of folk beliefs to it during the late warring states/early Han dynasty periods.

 

If you want to read more, read Howard Roth's essays, which are included in his translation of the text:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Tao-Foundat...7723&sr=8-1

Edited by Zhuo Ming-Dao

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I like it, it is a bit like a koan to me, but then again to me, most things are! I like to gloss over it, not read anything into anyone one line but let the whole thing just wash over. Like the Secret of Golden Flower which I'm enjoying, I just letting the mystical vibe dispel the over analyzing that comes from religious past.

 

thanks and peace to you,

 

andrew

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Hi everyone -

 

We had a Nei-Yeh thread going chapter by chapter, but I can see that there is much more interest in this particular thread - the old Tao Bums rendition of the Nei-Yeh. I agree that this translation by Shazi Daoren just can't be much improved upon -

 

I'm just posting to let you know I won't be continuing with the other discussion - not that there was much participation anyway. Folks seem to be coming out of the woodwork for this discussion.

 

Thanks to everyone who did participate on the original thread...

And thank you, Stig, for posting this wonderful translation.

 

Barb

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To really understand this text it is extremely helpful to read chapters 13 and 14 of Master Nan Huai-Chin's masterpiece Working Toward Enlightenment. Once you read these chapters you'll see that the Nie-Yeh is actually explaining in detail seeing Original Nature - the Tao.

 

There is wisdom in this poem that talks about cultivating realization - of which one method is cultivating the breath (which is the beginning of cultivating the 5 elements and seeing them return to Tao). I can not stress enough how much Nie-yeh is a practical manual of cultivation.

Edited by JustARandomPanda
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Great job; very artistic choice of fonts, and I like the translation so far ... I just started reading and wanted to speak out while my enthusiasm is still high. Thanks for this work

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Although I've carried a copy of the Tao Te Ching, or Laotse, for years, I just ran across a copy of NieYeh in a local used book store. This particular copy is called "Original Tao" by Harold Roth, and contains an excellent explanation of where this fits into Taoist literature (in the author's opinion, of course, but I agree with him) as an accompanying manual to the Laotse and, later, Chuangtse.

As JustARandomPanda points out, this is an instruction manual. I consider it VERY Zen ... it sticks to the practical, not the fluff.

Interesting that the translator of this poem calls the Way (or the One, Tao, Dao) Way in verses 4 and 5 but Dao in verse 6. The same character, Dao, is used in all three cases in the copy from the Huang Chu, at least. Which doesn't detract at all from the beauty or accuracy of the work, just confused me at first :)

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8 minutes ago, gj551 said:

could someone upload this :) the url doesnt work anymore

 

I'll see what we can do.  The original links both to the PDF and to a zip file were on the Dao Bums server as attachments to individual accounts, and may have been relocated during our upgrade this last Spring, so we may have to do some digging, or explore alternative solutions.

 

Zhongyongdaoist, Concierge

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9 hours ago, rfriedrich said:

 

Thanks for providing this insightful translation. It has much in common with the one I'm posting as a daily meditation in my PPD that’s adapted from Harold Roth's excellent book, Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei yeh) and the Foundation of Taoist Mysticism.  Mine is a composite of Roth's work and Louis Komjathy's translation based on Roth’s work as well as his own extensive knowledge of Daoist history, theory and praxis, published in the Inward Training volume of his Handbooks for Daoist Practice.  . 

 

What first struck me about the Neiye is its simplicity – here in writing is possibly the earliest Chinese attempt to explain the practice of inner cultivation that forms the ineffable mystical core of what later became known as Daoism. The terminology lacks the clear distinctions – and the theory lacks the logical refinement and sophistication of latter works – but in its raw simplicity it also says it all.  Sophisticated theory and developed systems of practice are all well and good in their place – but they can also trap us in the realm of our human created theory.

 

 

Edited by Yueya
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On 24/12/2017 at 7:49 AM, Yueya said:

 

Thanks for providing this insightful translation. It has much in common with the one I'm posting as a daily meditation in my PPD that’s adapted from Harold Roth's excellent book, Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei yeh) and the Foundation of Taoist Mysticism.  Mine is a composite of Roth's work and Louis Komjathy's translation based on Roth’s work as well as his own extensive knowledge of Daoist history, theory and praxis, published in the Inward Training volume of his Handbooks for Daoist Practice.  . 

 

What first struck me about the Neiye is its simplicity – here in writing is possibly the earliest Chinese attempt to explain the practice of inner cultivation that forms the ineffable mystical core of what later became known as Daoism. The terminology lacks the clear distinctions – and the theory lacks the logical refinement and sophistication of latter works – but in its raw simplicity it also says it all.  Sophisticated theory and developed systems of practice are all well and good in their place – but they can also trap us in the realm of our human created theory.

 

 

 

I've made a pdf version of the Neiye based on the translation I've posted in my PPD and attached it here.

 

Neiye Booklet.pdf 

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5 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

I've made a pdf version of the Neiye based on the translation I've posted in my PPD and attached it here.

 

Neiye Booklet.pdf 

 

Lovely - thank you.

 

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Beautiful @Yueya. Thank you.

Is this your composition as well?

 

In the utter silence
Of a temple,
A cicada’s voice alone
Penetrates the rocks.

 

☮️

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@ Daemon

 

No, those words are not mine. It’s a four-line translation by Nobuyuki Yuasa of a haiku written by Bashō as part of his travelogue, The Narrow Road to the Deep North. I normally attribute quotations but in this case I felt doing so would spoil the flow.

 

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Hi @Yueya , thank you for sharing this pdf. I really enjoyed it for its clear simplicity : - )

 

the only part that I actually had to chew on for a bit was the term "heart mind" , and although I have my own ideas about the meaning.. Would you mind sharing your understanding of the heart mind with me and future visitors to this post ?

 

Your brother in Dao,

 

kyoji

Edited by kyoji
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@kyoji

 

Thanks. I enjoyed compiling the booklet too. It's my favourite Daoist text. A glossary of key terms would be a good addition to the booklet for sure but not easy to concisely present. I started to write one but it got too complex so I thought it best to keep it simple. Also, I personally like to allow actual inner experience a free reign, as nebulous as it may be, rather than imposing too much conceptual content.  But I do value intellectual insight, and there's plenty of interesting discussion available on the meaning of these Daoist terms. “Heart-mind” is a case in point. Here’s an explanation I’ve adapted from Louis Komjathy’s essay, Names are the Guest of Reality:

 

The centre of Daoist psychology is the heart-mind (xin 心). From a classical and foundational Daoist perspective, the heart-mind is understood both as a physical location in the chest (the heart as “organ”) and as relating to thoughts and emotions (the heart as "consciousness" or shi 識). For this reason, although sometimes translated as "mind" under Buddhist influence, xin is better translated is "heart-mind," thus indicating its psychosomatic nature. 

 

The heart-mind is the emotional and intellectual centre of the human person. It is associated with consciousness and identified as the storehouse of spirit (shen  神). In its original or realized condition, the heart-mind has the ability to attain numinous pervasion: in its disoriented or habituated condition, especially in a state of hyper-emotionality or intellectualism, the heart-mind has the ability to separate the adept from the Dao as Source. The latter is often referred to as the "ordinary heart-mind" or more poetically as the "monkey-mind”, while the former is often referred to as the "original heart-mind". The ordinary heart-mind is characterized by chaos and instability, while the original heart-mind is characterized by coherence and constancy.

 

(Victor Mair’s discussion on “Heart-Mind” at http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=14807  is also informative.) 
 

 

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On 11/1/2008 at 7:17 AM, goldisheavy said:

I much prefer to deal with the live heart than to deal with dead concepts.

 

Hi goldishheavy,

 

I can accept the thoughts behind your post.  

 

But how can we bring dead concepts to life for sharing?

 

Through truthful/trusting sharing of experiences?

 

- Anand

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On 11/2/2008 at 2:43 AM, Mal said:

Reading looking for similarities to my path, tip and suggestions like...

 

"Eat, but do not exceed your appetite,

think, but do not over analyze"

 

"The Way does not leave,

when people are in tune with it, they understand.

Thus it is present! As if you need but ask for it."

 

Hi Mal,

 

In the same sense, the Shazi Daoren's booklet has breathed some life into mine. There are ~ similarities to my path.

 

- Anand

 

Edited by Limahong
Enhance ...

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