I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

[Apech]

Discuss.

 

Follow on from the other thread (you know the one I mean)

 

 

[Maddie]

Meditation does not give one rage.

 

Meditation let's one know their rage. 

 

[dwai]

Meditating I try to do

raging it turns into

maybe there're  hidden things 

lurking deep within 
the one who sees

the rage within

and all the sobbing 

that come unbidden 

is always ever free

is the real “real me”

 

 

[Apotheose]

Very cool topic, Apech. 
 

I see it in two ways.

 

The 1st could be the misinterpretation of what meditation is. There is a narrative which popularized some decades ago that meditating is sitting and managing to just not think at all. Well, that would be almost impossible. Meditating is actually achieving a higher state of consciousness which transcends the duality of thinking and not thinking. So, one who tries to sit and not think will of course be frustrated and maybe angry, since the very desire to not think will lead to thinking about not thinking.

 

The 2nd possible explanation —in my perspective— could be the process of undoing the mind’s knots. The art of knowing oneself via meditation will inevitably lead to this gradual process of “untying the knots” of what was learnt since the development of the ego —in the early childhood. Some knots are dissolved unconsciously and others consciously. The latter phenomena can be challenging, and thus can lead to discomfort and periods of “internal probation” that can include aggression. This aggression can be a mere symptom of this process, or it can be the very knot per se.

[silent thunder]

Sometimes perhaps rage is the wisdom? 

 

brings to mind Krishnamurti sharing: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Edited February 9 by silent thunder

[Bindi]

An uncleared heart is a cesspool, clearing it requires standing knee deep in the muck, feeling the feeling. 
 

Over time more and more clear water starts to fill it, but that doesn’t make you a saint, that just makes you more and more “hyper-emotional”, until you find the door that leads beyond the heart and upwards. 
 

But first you have to be saturated in the heart. It’s a very long journey but the only worthwhile one I believe.
 

If meditation is getting you to walk around in the muck then it’s sure working for you! 

 

Good luck 😊

[Taomeow]

Happened to me too a couple of years ago, under very stressful circumstances. 

 

I know there's scores of other explanations possible, but for myself, I believe it happened because I violated my own rule:  do not use sitting meditation as a substitute for any other self-regulating routines or techniques.  I learned a long time ago that I should not sit down to meditate with the goal of calming down when I'm upset, of settling my feelings or thoughts when they're in disarray, etc..; nor when I'm physically unwell.  Normally I treat sitting meditation the way someone would treat any event for which you are supposed to be "together" to begin with in order to attend.  Get your shit together first, go to the party later.    

 

Walking/moving meditation -- that's different.  That I can and do use toward mood/cognition/physical condition modifications.  

[silent thunder]

so deeply grateful for this place...

 

[Unota]

6 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

do not use sitting meditation as a substitute for any other self-regulating routines or techniques.  I learned a long time ago that I should not sit down to meditate with the goal of calming down when I'm upset, of settling my feelings or thoughts when they're in disarray, etc..; nor when I'm physically unwell.

Hahaha, right, If you're meditating to purposefully try to fix something in that moment, all you're going to think about is how hard you're trying to fix it. How would that work? 'I'm meditating...I'm meditating...This is going to fix all of my problems...I'm meditating so hard...any moment now...any second now...It's going to work...I am SO unbothered by this...'

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

 

 

Not strange at all. Repressed emotions finally able to be free again. Keep going through the pain by passively watching without engaging in it being good or bad. It may take awhile, but you will start feeling lighter and lighter and not weighed down by these stored emotions potentially held onto for years or more.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Very cool topic, Apech. 
 

I see it in two ways.

 

The 1st could be the misinterpretation of what meditation is. There is a narrative which popularized some decades ago that meditating is sitting and managing to just not think at all. Well, that would be almost impossible. Meditating is actually achieving a higher state of consciousness which transcends the duality of thinking and not thinking. So, one who tries to sit and not think will of course be frustrated and maybe angry, since the very desire to not think will lead to thinking about not thinking.

 

The 2nd possible explanation —in my perspective— could be the process of undoing the mind’s knots. The art of knowing oneself via meditation will inevitably lead to this gradual process of “untying the knots” of what was learnt since the development of the ego —in the early childhood. Some knots are dissolved unconsciously and others consciously. The latter phenomena can be challenging, and thus can lead to discomfort and periods of “internal probation” that can include aggression. This aggression can be a mere symptom of this process, or it can be the very knot per se.

 

 

For me, I see it two ways .

 

But first , the usage of the term annoys me ; some people talk about 'mediation'  as if it is  A thing  ... instead of many possible things .

 

"let's meditate "  okay sure , as we all know how to do  it  , you sit down , cross legged , close your eyes  and try not to think .

 

I witnessed a Lama visiting here that demonstrated it  ... well, as only a good Lama can  .  We had gathered in a half open , hexagonal building by the river  that was originally named ' The meditation sanctuary '  (by the early hippies here ), now called  'The Sanctuary ' .

 

The talk is about to start , everyone is sitting looking at Lama , he starts :

 

" This is a nice building , in a very good place , what do you use this building for ? "

 

Some woman , who doesnt live here and who I have never seen before , pipes up , " Its  the meditation sanctuary ,  for mediation . "

 

Lama ;  " Oh , You people meditate ?  Why ?   "

Woman  ( and others , including some from the local Buddhist centre , who have Lama as 'their' Lama ) ;  " Yes . " (hesitating ) .... to become  aware ."

 

Lama ; " Good !  Let's meditate together . "  So everyone shuffles themselves in to the required position , Lama does to , he looks at everyone and says " Close eyes . "  They do , all of them, except me , I am watching . "   time passes .... lama opens his eyes and checks everyone out , notices my eyes are not closed and mimes to me to close my eyes .  I do . Then open them again .  Lama has closed his eyes but also seems to  be  taking an immense lungful of air , I can see his stomach and chest expand . Then with a tremendous  exhale and shout ;

 

"  Peh !  " 

Boy, did everyone jump .... nearly out their skins, they sat there startled,  electrified looking around , wondering what happened . The lama started excitingly :  " Thats it !  Now you have it, you have done it , you have become aware   What? What where you all doing before , some of you where falling asleep and you act like you are sleeping , but now , you are aware ... no wait ! You are loosing it  .. you are losing it , you are falling back asleep  ,,, oh , you lost it . "

 

   What a great guy .   What a great 'meditation' , although I suspect many wondered what happened  , " I thought we where going to meditate .

 

For me there are two basic types , one is passive and within that its pretty much all the same purpose ; its to still the mind , develop its power of concentration and focus and not have it wander all over the place .  This isnt just  for relaxation or to release stress or whatever you hope to be doing , its also  preparation for 'active ' meditation .  Passive mediation exercises  can be seeing how long you can go for  , thinking of nothing . If one cant do that , think only of 'clear blue sky' , if one cant do that , think only of  a candle with flame burning , any intruding thought can be put into the flame and burn up .

 

Now we are entering the area of passive mediation ; now still keep the candle going in your mind but allow it to do what it wants ; roam the extent of the  conceivable universe     , by ...   other ideas can enter and be podered upon but they must be about the candle ; perhaps its a ability to give of light ,  how it was made , could it be improved  but it must be about the candle . Thinking one could use the candle to eat dinner by , and , by the way what IS for dinner tonight ?  I wish I had tofu , although it won;t be as good as that tofu I had back in 1987 in Singapore  , ......   ooops , lost it .

 

So really 'active meditation ' can be anything thought through or done consciously, focused , using full awareness and   sense -ability  and not  having the mind DISTRACT  but assist .  especially a  ritual , that can be a meditation, a ritual requires  this mind frame to be present , one definition of sacred is 'to be devoted to and used for  only one purpose ' .

 

[Apotheose]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Get your shit together first, go to the party later.    

Wow. No words can describe how much that makes sense to me.

 

I’ve also experienced failure in meditation many times when I just wanted to relieve stress. In my experience, aggression —as a biproduct of stress and confusion— should be gradually dissolved not by sitting meditation but by other activities.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

so deeply grateful for this place...

 

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

Discuss

since the commenters miss the point by a mile, i will explain. yours is a typical case of liver stagnation whereas an inborn energetic defect in the liver causes the qi to accumulate in the liver. When the liver is filled to capacity, the stagnant qi bursts forth in the moment of calm, causing an emotional-looking reaction which is not a real emotion. Instead it is a physiological reaction caused by the stagnated liver qi bursting to the surface. It is a symptom of a liver energy issue. It has nothing to do with meditation, repressed emotions, rage, past-life traumas etc yada yada

Can be rectified by a number of modalities of which tcm drugs / acupuncture are the least effective

Edited February 9 by Taoist Texts

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, Apotheose said:

Wow. No words can describe how much that makes sense to me.

 

I’ve also experienced failure in meditation many times when I just wanted to relieve stress. In my experience, aggression —as a biproduct of stress and confusion— should be gradually dissolved not by sitting meditation but by other activities.

 

 

YOU !   <points >

 

15 minutes on the bag .

[Nungali]

I have never felt tears or anger  (or rudeness , or 'existential frustration'   )   arise when I am 'meditating ' ... nor when I got drunk  ...  nor stoned  ....  or  took acid  ....

 

However , they  do occur in my everyday 'normal '   consciousness   .

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Now, I am off to do some late afternoon  'ride on mower meditation' out in the front paddock .

[Apotheose]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

The lama started excitingly :  " Thats it !  Now you have it, you have done it , you have become aware   What? What where you all doing before , some of you where falling asleep and you act like you are sleeping , but now , you are aware ... no wait ! You are loosing it  .. you are losing it , you are falling back asleep  ,,, oh , you lost it

 

Genius 

 

I like him already 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

since the commenters miss the point by a mile, i will explain. yours is a typical case of liver stagnation whereas an inborn energetic defect in the liver causes the qi to accumulate in the liver. When the liver is filled to capacity, the stagnant qi bursts forth in the moment of calm, causing an emotional-looking reaction which is not a real emotion. Instead it is a physiological reaction caused by the stagnated liver qi bursting to the surface. It is a symptom of a liver energy issue. It has nothing to do with meditation, repressed emotions, rage, past-life traumas etc yada yada

Can be rectified by a number of modalities of which tcm drugs / acupuncture are the least effective

 A friend who was a TCM practitioner and had been taught that anger correlated with liver once told me that when his Chinese wife got angry she used to clutch her liver which was a sort of proof to him of the correlation. Where does your idea that it’s non-emotional stagnant qi come from? 

Edited February 9 by Bindi

[Apotheose]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

For me there are two basic types , one is passive and within that its pretty much all the same purpose ; its to still the mind , develop its power of concentration and focus and not have it wander all over the place .  This isnt just  for relaxation or to release stress or whatever you hope to be doing , its also  preparation for 'active ' meditation .  Passive mediation exercises  can be seeing how long you can go for  , thinking of nothing . If one cant do that , think only of 'clear blue sky' , if one cant do that , think only of  a candle with flame burning , any intruding thought can be put into the flame and burn up .

 

Now we are entering the area of passive mediation ; now still keep the candle going in your mind but allow it to do what it wants ; roam the extent of the  conceivable universe     , by ...   other ideas can enter and be podered upon but they must be about the candle ; perhaps its a ability to give of light ,  how it was made , could it be improved  but it must be about the candle . Thinking one could use the candle to eat dinner by , and , by the way what IS for dinner tonight ?  I wish I had tofu , although it won;t be as good as that tofu I had back in 1987 in Singapore  , ......   ooops , lost it .

 

So really 'active meditation ' can be anything thought through or done consciously, focused , using full awareness and   sense -ability  and not  having the mind DISTRACT  but assist .  especially a  ritual , that can be a meditation, a ritual requires  this mind frame to be present , one definition of sacred is 'to be devoted to and used for  only one purpose ' .

 

Very interesting.

 

Off topic, but this reminds me of ancient theurgy, which was performed by neoplatonists. Which today many call high magic. Passive meditation to contemplate; active meditation to create. I remember reading something from Iamblichus that was akin to “the art of active contemplation”.

[snowymountains]

The anger either was there already or it wasn't already there.

 

When we meditate we do connect with our unconscious more. So connecting to suppressed emotions is a theme and it is actually a good thing, what meditation does not provide however is what to do once we reconnect with a suppressed emotion (insight meditation on it is not the magic hammer suitable for all nails) and this is where the real work begins. This is the case where the emotion was already there.

 

It's also the case that some practices, especially the ones with breath retention and visualisation work on areas close to endocrine glands, as ie is the case with chakras, can stir anger, this can eg happen to tummo practitioners. Because messing with our hormonal balances in ways we do not really understand clinically is tricky.

 

So if the anger appeared because you do a practice which affects the endocrine glands, simply drop the practice.

 

If no such practice is the cause and the anger merely surfaced, while it was already there yet suppressed, in this case acknowledge it, don't suppress it when you notice but you may need to look in deeply into the causes. In some cases, this may take even months or years. Months and years not to gain an intellectual understanding of oh it's linked to these events or it's about part of my IFS, months and years to have every fiber of your body be in touch of what the anger is about.

 

Edited February 9 by snowymountains

[Master Logray]

As @Nungali  said there are 2 types of meditation.  Passive meditation pretty means doing nothing.  When a person is idle, he will think of many things, recall major or trivial happenings in life, also about solid ones like lost objects, deadlines, grievances, pets....   All these trigger corresponding emotion when that happened or happening.  So it is natural to be "sobbing with rage" and it almost always does.    

 

When a person is living a very hectic, pressurized life, passive meditation brings immediate relaxation in body and later the mind.   However once the initial calm down is achieved, the meditator becomes idle.  Then he either runs into a recall mode or alternatively in a creation mode, imagining.  The recall sooner or later will involve anger as everyone is angry at some point in time. 

 

When the meditator reaches this stage, then it is "where the real work begins" by @snowymountains.   Different schools have different methods to overcome this.   The simplest way to handle is again disengagement.  If one is angry, don't sit, do some Qigong and come back later.   Of course some schools go on doing nothing to the end.

 

If the purpose of meditation is solely for relaxation and stop there, then it is better not to sit too long.  Relaxing the body and slowing the mind is good enough for body and mind.    

 

@Taoist Texts does have a point.   The liver is closely associated  with emotions.  But the normal discourse is emotions affecting the liver first and sluggish liver Chi affects emotion later.

 

 

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

Just now, Master Logray said:

When the meditator reaches this stage, then it is "where the real work begins" by @snowymountains.   Different schools have different methods to overcome this.   The simplest way to handle is again disengagement.  If one is angry, don't sit, do some Qigong and come back later.   Of course some schools go on doing nothing to the end.

 

 

This still doesn't suggest what needs to be done with the anger in general, it's only an instruction what to do with it in terms of meditation - I won't go into the discussion of which is ie my approach or someone else's with respect to that subtopic, but the topic is much wider than that.

[Master Logray]

12 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

This still doesn't suggest what needs to be done with the anger in general, it's only an instruction what to do with it in terms of meditation - I won't go into the discussion of which is ie my approach or someone else's with respect to that subtopic, but the topic is much wider than that.

 

We can talk about the external aspects, the cosmic knowledge, divine, philosophy, precepts, parables, managing desires, humility....   All these help to reduce angers outside of meditation.  

[blue eyed snake]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

Discuss.

 

Follow on from the other thread (you know the one I mean)

 

 

 

hmm, imho these are emotions that have never been let out.

 

as children we were often taught to keep inside all kinds of negative emotions. This message from the outside to push down your emotions can take on preposterous dimensions.

Big parts of your emotional world can/are pushed to what's often called the subconscious.

 

People who come from neglecting and/or abusive families will have this in a big way. As time and again they are told their happiness/ their existence, their pain is totally unimportant.

 

Remembering a woman who started Zen meditation, she was told it would help her with emotional troubles by some half-baked psychologist.  Very fast a whole lot of suppressed shit came up, loads of tears, and she became severely depressed and suicidal.

The advice from the zen teacher: just push through, its not important.  So she got the same message that had caused it in the first place: "your emotions, your sadness,  your pain, your fear is not important". 

 

when you start to sit and look inside this sort of shit  will come up as a matter of course.

 

In such clear-cut cases it's easy to see how these things could work, but me thinks there will be a lot of cases were it's less clear but still caused by the same underlying process.

I come from an era were boys were admonished not to cry as real men do not cry and girls were forbidden to yell in anger as that was unseemly. I guess quite a bit of anxiety and anger is still hidden in some of my peers.