Taoism according to.....

[Sahaja]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

That was only one man's opinion. Even though it was written in a book, but it was not recognized by the native scholars. However, I still have no idea what Confucian Chi Kung is? Chi Kung is a form of breathing exercise. Confucians may practice it, but the natives didn't call it Confucian Chi Kung.

Breath exercise. Now that you said it twice I have to comment. For me a better description of  qi gong would be an exercise of vital force rather than breath.  Though technically air or breath is a valid translation for qi, I find this translation a misleading description of both the somatic manifestation and the process of qi activation in qi gong.  It often manifests in qi gong in the form of electrical nerve stimulation or magnetic contraction of the tissue depending on yang or yin predominating. Can also be like a wave moving on its own through the tissue.  Or one may feel nothing at all and it still could be working.  Breath practices can definitely add to the process but the qi can and often does get built/activated/moved in qi gong without any special  breath exercise being applied at all. 

[wandelaar]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

How early are the Yangsheng practices, and do they come before or after the Tao te Ching, etc.? I don't remember seeing mentions of cultivation in it. I have never been sure of the link between the classic Daoist literature and the cultivation traditions. Wish there was a fun, clear, family tree for this. Maybe there is?

 

See: https://cup.columbia.edu/book/original-tao/9780231115643

[wandelaar]

@ChiDragon

Taoism started as a mystical/philosophical thing as we can read in the TTC, Chuang tzu and Lieh tzu. There is a huge difference between those early forms of Taoism and the superstitious, ceremonial and liturgical forms of Taoism the came later on. This difference isn't a Western invention at all. There are also Chinese terms for the two aspects of Taoism:  https://www.taoistic.com/taoistphilosophy.htm But I don't know when those terms were first used. Maybe you know how old those terms are? Anyway whether there were appropriate Chinese terms for it from early on or not, the difference is there. Those who now want to blind our eyes to this distinction do so out of a wish to eradicate everything that even remotely reminds them of our colonialist, imperialist, etc. past. And they see those remnants everywhere, and in particular where they aren't. Political correctness gone berserk.

Edited November 21, 2023 by wandelaar

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

Quote

Most Daoist Qigong incorporates internal alchemy (neidan 内丹) methods. - (from the PDF) 

with due deference to @Cobie, this is the most fun topic for me personally so i will jump in. this is a great pdf for beginners but has its own share of naive errors. Eg there is no such thing as daoist or buddhist or confucian or alchemy quigongs because quigong is a modern health practice while those teachings are not.

 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

...is true, is it also true of all other cultivation method traditions... or?

of course, because no tradition  withstands pop-commercialization 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Does Daoism initially predate alchemical/cultivation traditions?

defo, because such alchemy starts from around 600 AD

6 hours ago, stirling said:

How early are the Yangsheng practices, and do they come before or after the Tao te Ching, etc.?

before because they are mentioned in Zhuang which is roughly contemporaneous with TTC.

6 hours ago, stirling said:

I don't remember seeing mentions of cultivation in it.

because there is none of health cult in it

6 hours ago, stirling said:

I have never been sure of the link between the classic Daoist literature and the cultivation traditions.

first of all there is no separate classic daoist lit and some kind of other classic lit. because they were all one tradition eg TTC and ZZ were compiled by confucians.

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Wish there was a fun, clear, family tree for this. Maybe there is?

Second if by cultivation you mean Yangsheng as some kind of health practice then there is none because the ancient writers a bigger fish to fry. If by cultivation you mean salvation then all of the classic lit is about it. Pretty fun and clear, no?

6 hours ago, stirling said:

Another question:

 

If Mitchell et. al. and their translations are rubbish, what translations aren't?  Thanks in advance.

the one and only

https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing/ens

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

… i will jump in. …

 

Thanks, you know a lot more about it than I do.  

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Thanks, you know a lot more about it than I do.  

 

 

This changes everything I thought I knew about you lol

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ChiDragon

Taoism started as a mystical/philosophical thing as we can read in the TTC, Chuang tzu and Lieh tzu. There is a huge difference between those early forms of Taoism and the superstitious, ceremonial and liturgical forms of Taoism the came later on. This difference isn't a Western invention at all. There are also Chinese terms for the two aspects of Taoism:  https://www.taoistic.com/taoistphilosophy.htm But I don't know when those terms were first used. Maybe you know how old those terms are? Anyway whether there were appropriate Chinese terms for it from early on or not, the difference is there. Those who now want to blind our eyes to this distinction do so out of a wish to eradicate everything that even remotely reminds them of our colonialist, imperialist, etc. past. And they see those remnants everywhere, and in particular where they aren't. Political correctness gone berserk.

 

Do you know why this is so ?  I find it interesting as I feel a certain dynamic like that existed in Zoroastrianism . I first assumed the early form was  superstitious , ceremonial , deified , full of 'personalized forces '  ( ie,  principles and powers of 'nature' are depicted as virtually Gods, with human attributes )  and the latter more open to a refined and philosophical / psychological interpretation .  But now I think its the other way around , the early forms and  meanings of terms seems much more advanced and less 'superstitious '.

 

What do you think was the cause of  moving away from the  early understanding of Taoism ?  ... or is it just the 'movement of the masses'  - 'dumbing things down ' -   as it where ?

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

What do you think was the cause of  moving away from the  early understanding of Taoism ?  ... or is it just the 'movement of the masses'  - 'dumbing things down ' -   as it where ?

 

Yes, I think that the early form of Taoism was too abstract and too brutally honest about the way the world works (like "Tao is not benevolent" and we are all "just straw dogs"). That's alright for philosophers, cynics and the like, but common folks want simple guide lines and solutions (whether they are real or imaginary). If something hinders or frighten them then they want their religion to supply them with a ritual, prayer or something that promises some help so they can do something about it (whether it actually helps or  not). They want their religion to alleviate the stresses of existence in as simple a way as possible. So to sell Taoism to the masses it had to be changed into a more common form of religion.

[Cobie]

 

12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ChiDragon

Taoism started as a mystical/philosophical thing as we can read in the TTC, Chuang tzu and Lieh tzu. There is a huge difference between those early forms of Taoism and the superstitious, ceremonial and liturgical forms of Taoism the came later on. This difference isn't a Western invention at all. There are also Chinese terms for the two aspects of Taoism:  https://www.taoistic.com/taoistphilosophy.htm But I don't know when those terms were first used. Maybe you know how old those terms are? Anyway whether there were appropriate Chinese terms for it from early on or not, the difference is there. Those who now want to blind our eyes to this distinction do so out of a wish to eradicate everything that even remotely reminds them of our colonialist, imperialist, etc. past. And they see those remnants everywhere, and in particular where they aren't. Political correctness gone berserk.

@ChiDragon 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

Yes - thank you. 

 

It would be interesting to see what ChiDragon knows about the terms Tao Chia and Tao Chiao.

[Cobie]

@wandelaar 道家 dao4 jia1 and 道教 dao4 jiao4 are mentioned in the Kroll at 道 dao4 (page 80) #5. 
 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Master Logray]

The parable of The Blind Men and The Elephant tells the story of six blind men who examine one part of an elephant and each come to very different conclusions on what an elephant is. They are all partly right, but also all entirely wrong.   Comparison between Philosophical Taoism and Religious Taoism can be viewed in the same light.  

 

In reality, a philosopher Taoist would go to the nearest Taoist temple and worships deities.  Temple Taoists would talk about TTJ.    An Yijing enthusiast could only engage ZhengYi Taoists in times of funeral, while never going to temples.

 

If Taoism is to be dissected for studying.   I would say there are 3 main circles, philosophy, religious and folk religion.  They are independent and yet overlapping each other.

 

The significance of China folk religion cannot be underestimated.   In fact the so called Taoist branches, like guiding behaviour, ancestor offerings, concepts/workings of heaven and hell,  folk magics, medicines, orthopedics, fortune telling, all exist in folk religion/practices as well.  Taosim has been trying to absorb these activities and beliefs - of course believers.  It ends up they are mixed with each other.  Usually the more refined, theoretical, organized, standardized practices belong to the Taoists, the remaining are said to be Taoist but really on their own. 

 

To give an example, a China tv program estimated there are 2000 villages in the KwongTung province, each having its local (village) main deity, their own magic, rituals.  Interestingly, they frequently also worship Kwan Yin, a Buddhist Goddess.  But they may not worship normal Taoist Immortals/gods.   If you ask them, they would say they are Taoists, but are they?  or they are smaller religions themselves?

 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

@wandelaar 道家 dao4 jia1 and 道教 dao4 jiao4 are mentioned in the Kroll at 道 dao4 (page 80) #5.

 

Thank you. That solves the issue. The difference between philosophical and religious Taoism thus is also known in the Chinese language itself from quite early on. The fact that lots of Taoists don't (want to) see or recognize such a difference doesn't make the difference any less relevant. It's often easier for outsiders to see the basic structure of doctrines and practices than for those who grew up with them. So there is no reason to disqualify the distinction on the basis of it being applied mainly from a western perspective. And besides as we have seen the more discerning Chinese minds were able to see the same distinction themselves as shown by the existence from early on within the Chinese language of terms corresponding to "philosophical Taoism" and "religious Taoism". Admittedly Taoism as currently practiced in Asia has become a mixture of "philosophical Taoism" and "religious Taoism" and even parts of Buddhism, Confucianism, folk religion, etc. But again that doesn't force us to blind ourselves to the different component parts present in current day Asian Taoism. In particular it's perfectly legitimate for western Taoists who prefer philosophical Taoism to ignore the rest of current day Taoism in their own practice. The works of Lao tzu, Chuang tzu and Lieh tzu are full of practical wisdom and interesting philosophical and mystical idea's and nothing in them points at the necessity of engaging in the later forms of religious Taoism to reap the benefits. There is no Asian copyright on Taoism, Buddhism or Hinduism, just as there is no Western copyright on Christianity, Greek and Roman philosophy, etc. We can all use or ignore the world's wisdom as we see fit, and we do so at our own advantage or peril.

Edited November 22, 2023 by wandelaar

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Thank you. …

You’re welcome. 
 

 

[Maddie]

The last couple of posts have brought up another good question. Where does one draw the line between traditional Chinese folk religion and Taoism?

[Apech]

59 minutes ago, Maddie said:

The last couple of posts have brought up another good question. Where does one draw the line between traditional Chinese folk religion and Taoism?

 

Despite what some have said about this the main problem is that we have created categories like 'religion', 'secularism', 'superstition', 'philosophy', 'folk religion' and so on and then try to fit various ways into them.  For instance people look for pure original Daoism (or Buddhism) - these never existed.  Most of these labels are not useful or even unhelpful.

 

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

 

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

The last couple of posts have brought up another good question. Where does one draw the line between traditional Chinese folk religion and Taoism?

 

Despite what some have said about this the main problem is that we have created categories like 'religion', 'secularism', 'superstition', 'philosophy', 'folk religion' and so on and then try to fit various ways into them.  For instance people look for pure original Daoism (or Buddhism) - these never existed.  Most of these labels are not useful or even unhelpful.

 

I would say that the only useful label that can be applied here is between Theory and Practice, that Daoists practice their "folk magic" within an framework provided by Daoist authors and Buddhist within a framework which they believe is provided by Buddhist texts.

 

There is a lot more that I could say about the history of these distinctions in the West, but that would take more time than i have now, involving as they do a long a digression into the religious conflicts of the Reformation and Counter reformation,  contentions within the Catholic Church between Nominalists and Scholastics, and the rise of such libertines as John Wilmot, the second Earl of Rochester, and its continued development among the Baron D'Holbach and his coterie.  As you can well imagine, the explication of all of that would take much time and lead us far afield.

 

ZYD

 

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

The last couple of posts have brought up another good question. Where does one draw the line between traditional Chinese folk religion and Taoism?

We each experience reality from the center of our own local awareness.

 

So distinctions arise within each local awareness regarding their interpretation of experiential awareness, i.e. we each experience reality uniquely and distinctly... and the word objects each local awareness will attempt to use to share their direct experience through mentation and speaking is derived through this individual experience.  While there may be some crossover of commonality, this will often not come close to the degree of diversity expressed in the unique experience of each participant.

 

Then add to that the caveat that each word chosen to describe such experiences also has subjective distinctions of meaning given the experience of each individual, so there become myriad branches of potential meaning with each new awareness engaging with the thought forms shared, versus the direct experience they themselves may be trying to attribute the shared words to...

[Taomeow]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:08 AM, Maddie said:

The last couple of posts have brought up another good question. Where does one draw the line between traditional Chinese folk religion and Taoism?

 

Only in the "scholars' " or "researchers' " or "experts' " minds. 

 

"Chinese folk religion," a phenomenon of shamanic matriarchy, was far luckier in its historical plight than most other ancient shamanic doctrine-practice modalities, in that, instead of being entirely eradicated and disappearing, it smoothly and gradually morphed into a more left-brainy, more intellectualized, more patriarchy-compatible version of itself some of us know and love (or not) as taoism. 

 

A good example (one of many) of how this process unfolded over centuries and millennia would be, e.g., the transformation of the great and fearsome tiger-fanged shamanic goddess Xi Wangmu, one of the primary forces of creation and destruction, into her refined, much tamer, thoroughly "photoshopped" later taoist version.  (A good article linked.)  And yet to separate them, to draw a demarcation line between the actual original and its curated version and pooh-pooh the original as "folk" (implying "inferior" or "inconsequential") is the gravest mistake.  This kind of pooh-poohing/curating/photoshopping is the primary source of all confusion surrounding what taoism is or isn't.  This grave mistake has, however, become de rigueur of countless "taoist studies" by "scholars" who, in making it themselves and encouraging others to follow suit, are merely paying tribute to their own patriarchal legacy.  

 

https://www.suppressedhistories.net/goddess/xiwangmu.html?fbclid=IwAR2dZWPEWXNyu5EebWJ9rjgTSJ8IbtBKpcnnGYr2a1PPoePqKX-lvtlF-6g

[old3bob]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:08 AM, Maddie said:

The last couple of posts have brought up another good question. Where does one draw the line between traditional Chinese folk religion and Taoism?

 

none own or have a "lording over it" of the pure (original) life force or its source beyond names...take them as they are, paths and pointers which should be helpful in providing some degree of handle and dharmic framework to work with for human beings.

[Taoist Texts]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:50 AM, Cobie said:

道家 dao4 jia1 and 道教 dao4 jiao4 are mentioned in the Kroll at 道 dao4 (page 80) #5. 

thats great but what do these terms mean according to him?

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats great but what do these terms mean according to him?

 

This is what’s in the dictionary:

 

On 05/07/2023 at 9:48 PM, Cobie said:

… 道 … 5. ideas and teachings especially associated with the texts Zhuangzi and Laozi (or Daodejing); e.g.

道家 dao4 jia1, lineage of the Way, bibliographic category refers to these and related texts, often defined as ‘philosophical Daoism’ in contrast to next.
a. practices especially associated with movements and texts relating to masters of self-cultivation, pursuit of immortality, and various organised religious communities, esp. those ultimately deriving from the Way of the Celestial Masters (tianshidao 天 師 道) founded in mid-2nd-c. CE; e.g. (medieval) 道教 dao4 jiao4, teaching of the Way, from early 5th-c. CE a term assoc. with groups and texts just described, often defined now as ‘religious Daoism’.

In the Kroll (see page X) (medieval) means that this meaning was not in use before the third century CE.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

道家 dao4 jia1, lineage of the Way, bibliographic category refers to these and related texts, often defined as ‘philosophical Daoism’ in contrast to next.

thanks Cobie. As i  am sure you know this quote above reflects the hilariously ignorant notion that 道家 were some kind of rational philosophers. They were not as this quote below proves:

 

 

《道虛 - Daoxu》

Edited November 24, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[ChimpSage]

On 11/18/2023 at 1:07 PM, Maddie said:

I started off on my path via qigong/Taoism and like many westerners I assumed the two were practically synonymous. Then I discovered Taoism differed drastically depending upon whom you asked. 

     If you asked many westerners Taoism was qigong or internal alchemy. If you asked someone from China or Taiwan the answer tended to differ drastically being that Taoism was doing ceremonies at a Taoist temple. To be honest I didn't like this because it seemed "too religious". 

    To further complicate matters since I first got into all of this when I was a history major in college, I asked my eastern studies professor about what Taoism is and she made it sound like a philosophy of reading and studying the TTC. 

    To this day I still don't really know what Taoism really is or is supposed to be. Honestly it was largely due to this confusion amongst other things that caused me to drift towards Buddhism eventually.

 

 So that being said what is Taoism, and how does one practice it?

It is the practice of the constant refinement of the three treasures to become infinite virtue and infinite light.

 

Ridding oneself of all vice, delusion , and darkness.

 

This is Daoism. It is not a religion. It is a system of practice. A path up the mountain towards Heaven and embodying divinity

[NaturaNaturans]

On 19.11.2023 at 11:54 PM, Nungali said:

Or even have the same root in antiquity .

👀