How would you counter this hypothesis to the ‘Enlightenment’ idea?

[Daniel]

45 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I dont normally answer questions like this ;  its a black hole of no return ... but lets zoom close for a look ;

 

remote signal  , still 3G and partial ... even town drops out 30.km away and has numerous surrounding towers  and their eftpos and other internet related stuff drops out ,  I mean, it all used to work super fine and efficient , until they made things 'better' .

 

At the same time , a continual request to download 'upgrades ' ( or is it upload down grades  ? ) .... I am still hitting the no button , I lost 2  computers that way .... one I kept saying no ... it eventually did it anyway , used up my credit  and then that lap top would not work after that .  Got a new one , so much crap was associated with just turning it on to the internet  ; news feeds , 'do you want to do this , do that , share this here or there .... so overloaded with crap that it could not work on a 3G signal . So computer guy , reloaded Ubuntu that doesnt have that  ... BUT in doing that  ....

 

you dont really want me to go on do you ?  Its a  bowl of black spaghetti !  My phone ? does weird shit . of course these modern young people think I am an idiot  " Look, show me your phone, I will show you how that works  (or even the phone repair place ) , or how you do  or use a certain function."  They mess around with it for 5  minutes , look surprised and then inform ME " "Oh .... it shouldnt be doing that ! "

 

DUDE !  Thats what I am saying in the first place !   and then they hand it back and whatever they did has caused more problems  . So I tell em to F off  you dont understand  and they are left  thinking I am a cranky old confused dude that  cant work modern technology .

 

YET  at times , I can explain a function or do something they had no idea about ... sigh .... welcome to 'Nungaliville' .

 

I totally understand.  I've been elbows deep in those situations on more than one occasion.  I'm the one they'd send to help people in the remote areas, or the big-wigs in the big offices, or anytime it was a complicated upgrade.  Well, I was on the team that did that sort of stuff.  

 

If you're on, ubuntu, that's actually good. For that, my plan would be to install a different browser, not to delete or remove anything, making no changes at all to the existing browser.  You can have multiple browsers installed side-by-side no problem. Ubuntu is linux, and it's really good at handling spotty internet connections.  Also, linux is great for giving remote support.  It was designed long long ago, when people were collaborating over text, in university settings when the internet was just a baby.

 

But, there's some challenges there.  Hopefully you're on the LTS version, which means that their apt-repositiory is maintained for much longer compared to the standard version.  Ubuntu is great, I love it and used it for years and years.  But if the operating system is not kept up to date then the apt-repository gets shut down for that version, and there's no easy way to install anything on it after that.  It's a consequence of the rapid distribution cycle, they're always trying new stuff on ubuntu.

 

Let's see.... the first step would be to see what version of ubuntu you have now.  If you're feeling daring, "ctrl+alt+T" should open a terminal.  Then "lsb_release -a" (no quotes) should return the version you're running. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

44 minutes ago, Nungali said:

That would be OX ... OX GOAD  ... and   TONGUE/MOUTH  -  'driving forward'  ; " Get up there !  Mush mush !  " ( whip whip ) .

 

I love you so much right now.  LOL.

[Daniel]

@Nungali,

 

Behold.... my daughter used to brush it out for fun... my wife, sneaky-sneaky snapped a photo while my eyes were closed.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Daniel

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Mark Foote a request: I would really appreciate it if you could please be so kind as to remove the quotes. 

 

Cobie, I deleted the material in the quote boxes.  The sentence I requoted in my text and commented on, I did not delete.

That sentence particularly spoke to my experience, and I'd like to keep it.  
 

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Quote

"Shikantaza is the place, and things" (Kobun, from the Jijkoji website).  The place and no-thing, things and no-thing.

It can't be done, of course.
 

 

What can't be done? 

 

Cat where my keyboard normally rests, makes things difficult interesting.

 

Shikantaza can't be "done".

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335)

 

Suzuki says that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of doing something, and that “doing something” makes the practice only preparatory.  The implication, I think, is that shikantaza can't be "done".

What's a mother to do, about getting no-thing done! 

Working on a piece now:

 

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, attention can also take place in the body without direction, as a function of the movement of breath:
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Common Ground)
 

In my experience, that’s especially true when a bent-knee posture is maintained over a period of time.

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Daniel]

@Mark Foote,

 

Phooey, my friend in india just replied.  He is declining to help with the translation, not because he can't, but because he says it's an oral tradition, not a verbatim quote, so the level of detail I am asking for, he says is baseless.  Although it seems he agrees that the translation should not be the title "A Buddha" but is instead a "matter of fact" quality of being enlightened.  He's said twice in the very short reply, let's not get into semantics.  Hee-hee.  He knows me pretty well, although, I feel like I've made some intellectual progress (maturity) since we last communcated.

[Cobie]

.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Cobie

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Cat where my keyboard normally rests, makes things difficult interesting.

 

If only cats were more adept at intuiting our ideas and typing them for us. Alas. My cat is a serial murderer and would easily slip into rodent genocide if it wasn't for the incessant and debilitating need to go in and out of the house every 10 minutes. She is most certainly no typist.

 

Quote

Shikantaza can't be "done".

 

Right on! Done properly, there IS no-one doing it. 

 

 

Quote

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335)

 

Indeed. 

 

Quote

Suzuki says that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of doing something, and that “doing something” makes the practice only preparatory.  The implication, I think, is that shikantaza can't be "done".

 

It is absolutely correct, yes. Where there is shikantaza, space, time, and "self" drop out. This often happens during Zazen too, where the "doing" of whatever practice is your way in suddenly drops away. This is how you know the student is ready to stop preparing and just go ahead and actualize enlightenment.

 

Quote

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, attention can also take place in the body without direction, as a function of the movement of breath:
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Common Ground)
 

In my experience, that’s especially true when a bent-knee posture is maintained over a period of time.

 

Yes, this sounds familiar. I'm seeing some refinement as this goes along. One thought: Investigate the idea that attention is actually ALWAYS taking place without direction.

 

Keep at it! 

Edited August 27, 2023 by stirling

[whocoulditbe?]

page #14 lol

[Mark Foote]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

@Mark Foote,

 

Phooey, my friend in india just replied.  He is declining to help with the translation, not because he can't, but because he says it's an oral tradition, not a verbatim quote, so the level of detail I am asking for, he says is baseless.  Although it seems he agrees that the translation should not be the title "A Buddha" but is instead a "matter of fact" quality of being enlightened.  He's said twice in the very short reply, let's not get into semantics.  Hee-hee.  He knows me pretty well, although, I feel like I've made some intellectual progress (maturity) since we last communcated.
 

 

Your friend is right, of course.  Pali was not even the language spoken by Gautama.  Nevertheless, when I read the words in the first four Nikayas attributed to Gautama, I'm amazed at the consistency of what Gautama said (and what he didn't).  I think many of the sermons are considered to have come out of his attendant Ananda's memory--Ananda apparently had a photographic memory for sound.  

My takeaway is that Gautama would not have offered that final assessment of what he would become (and what he was) if he had not been pressed (by that last question, about whether he would become a human being).   

Thanissaro changed the context a little, saying "Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'"   I prefer (as usual) the Woodward translation (Pali Text Society), "Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin."  There's a reason the Pali Text Society translators left the word "Buddha" in their translations, and that would be the difficulty of translating the term.  Also, I think Woodward's translation sounds like something that would have closed the discussion, and I don't see any reference to remembering in the literal translation--I wonder where Thanissaro got that.

"Buddha as such when I am dead Brahman call it time"

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Daniel]

54 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

of what he would become

 

this is where my brain skids to a screaching halt.  would become, future tense, doesn't fit for me.  Are there translations that render it this way?

 

56 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

(and what he was)

 

I'm not understanding why this is in parentheses?

 

57 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

"Buddha as such when I am dead Brahman call it time"

 

This was your literal word-for-word translation, right?  So, my friend is chatting with me on a deeper level.  I think I've convinced him that I'm not going to play immature word-games.  He's confirmed the "a" indefinite article is not included.  But, it's tricky making steady forward progress because of the time-zone difference.

 

Hopefully, towards the end of the convo, if I do well, he will humor me, and do a word-for-word literal translation of just that one line.  I'm debating with myself whether or not I should remind of "that one time" I did him a favor.  On the other hand he is over 30 years my senior...

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I love you so much right now.  LOL.

 

Get down boy !  Down , down .... < whip whip >

 

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Daniel said:

@Nungali,

 

Behold.... my daughter used to brush it out for fun... my wife, sneaky-sneaky snapped a photo while my eyes were closed.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

Looks like my hair !   I cant let it get too long as it starts to meld into its own hairstyle that looks like an old ladies 'perm'  * .... I get these old grannies looking at me enviously       .

 

 

*

[Ajay0]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:19 AM, stirling said:

 

Thanks for the mention Luke.

 

With great respect to the original poster who is trying so bravely to make sense of these ideas here, there are a number of problems with the initial proposition as it is presented that would require entirely re-stating the premise in a new way. It seemed difficult and possibly unskilful, so I haven't dived in for this reason. Life is also busy in a good way at present, so...

 

In regard to this sub-point: firstly, there is ONLY enlightenment. It is not different from culture to culture - how it is DESCRIBED is. It is no problem for a Buddhist to share the experience of non-dual understanding with a Sufi, Hindu, or other Buddhist, at least in my experience. It is rich and rewarding to do so, and you won't finding those with understanding splitting hairs, or protecting their "tradition". The deeper the understanding, the more this is true. Where do the problems between traditions differ? It is where those that don't understand conceptualize and postulate, in my experience. 

 

Forgetting the "Buddhist view" for a moment: what is being suggested is that family, self, and souls are meaningless and that understanding how things are means denying identity. This would be a gross misunderstanding of enlightenment. 

 

In Buddhism "Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form":

 

https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/01/04.pdf

 

What does this mean? It means that form IS merely a quality of emptiness, but that both co-exist and are interdependent. So, the illusory form of "self" never goes anywhere, but is recognized to be empty of intrinsic reality, or, more simply put, no-thing has a reality that is independent of the rest of reality. It IS true that designations like family, self, and soul are illusory, and yet even enlightenment finds itself at family reunions, prefers a particular brand of peanut butter, and experiences interconnected meaning in the context of what arises in this moment. 

 

To believe otherwise is to be trapped in the conceptual constructs of nihilism, and not true understanding. Embracing nihilism would be a misunderstanding of the nature of reality as it is. 

 

The REAL problem is in trying to make ANY of this a conceptual framework or idea. It isn't and CAN'T be; conceptual ideas about non-dual reality are NOT understanding. The "mind" CANNOT parse how things really are, and no espousable idea or mental construct is "it" and can't be. 

 

Even the great Nagarjuna's teachings, the most clear and delineated teachings on emptiness extant, are understood to be merely a scaffolding to be held lightly until there is REAL understanding. 

 

Understanding the conceptual idea of the Āyatana of mind and mental objects is important to seeing how our exalted sense of "I", born from the misunderstanding of the importance of thought, misdirects and confuses us.

 

This is very intelligently and eloquently put. Thank you for this. 

 

Quote

The REAL problem is in trying to make ANY of this a conceptual framework or idea. It isn't and CAN'T be; conceptual ideas about non-dual reality are NOT understanding. The "mind" CANNOT parse how things really are, and no espousable idea or mental construct is "it" and can't be. 

 

Yes, I would like to put a similar saying of Thich Nhat Hanh over here to reiterate it...

“The secret of Buddhism is to remove all ideas, all concepts, in order for the truth to have a chance to penetrate, to reveal itself.” 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Ajay0

[Mark Foote]

On 8/27/2023 at 12:48 PM, Daniel said:

 

Quote

My takeaway is that Gautama would not have offered that final assessment of what he would become (and what he was) if he had not been pressed (by that last question, about whether he would become a human being).  
 

 

this is where my brain skids to a screaching halt.  would become, future tense, doesn't fit for me.  Are there translations that render it this way?
 

 

The questions Dona asked were all about what Gautama would become after his passing.  The last of them, and Gautama's response (abbreviated):

 

 

"Then your worship will become a human being?"

 

"No indeed, brahman, I'll not become a human being."

 

... "Who then, pray, will your worship become?"

 

Brahmin, those asavas whereby, if they were not abandoned, I should become... a human being,--those asavas in me are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm tree stump, made non-existent, of a nature not to arise again in future time.  Just as, brahmin, a lotus, blue, red, or white, though born in the water, grown up in the water, when it reaches the surface stands there unsoiled by the water,--just so, brahmin, though born in the world, grown up in the world, having overcome the world, I abide unsoiled by the world.  Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin.

(AN text ii, 37; iv, IV, 36; Pali Text Society AN vol II Book of Fours p 44)
 

Dona the brahmin is asking what he will become.  Apparently Gautama felt that in answering "take it that I am a Buddha", he answered that question.  That's why I said "of what he would become (and what he was)".  

  

 

Quote

 

I'm not understanding why this is in parentheses?
 

 

 

The question was about what he will become, but his answer was present tense, that's why I put "and what he was" in parenthesis--he is saying what he is, but in answer to what he will become.  Sorry if that was confusing (it is confusing).

 

 

Quote

 

This was your literal word-for-word translation, right? 
 

So, my friend is chatting with me on a deeper level.  I think I've convinced him that I'm not going to play immature word-games.  He's confirmed the "a" indefinite article is not included.  But, it's tricky making steady forward progress because of the time-zone difference.

 

Right, my literal word-for-word translation.

Again, the original spoken sermon was not in Pali.  Your friend confirms no indefinite article, but can he say that the indefinite article would not have been lost in the transition from whatever language Gautama spoke to Pali, 5 centuries after Gautama?
 

 

Quote

 

Hopefully, towards the end of the convo, if I do well, he will humor me, and do a word-for-word literal translation of just that one line.  I'm debating with myself whether or not I should remind of "that one time" I did him a favor.  On the other hand he is over 30 years my senior...
 

What are you thinking the analysis will reveal?  You have something in mind, depending on that article, or some other aspect of "take it that I am a Buddha"?  

The absence of the asavas--here's Gautama's description of his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving":

 

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152)

 

 

Although "the cessation of feeling and perceiving" is not a permanent state, apparently the destruction of the asavas ("cankers") is.


 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

The questions Dona asked were all about what Gautama would become after his passing.  The last of them, and Gautama's response (abbreviated):

 

 

"Then your worship will become a human being?"

 

"No indeed, brahman, I'll not become a human being."

 

... "Who then, pray, will your worship become?"

 

Brahmin, those asavas whereby, if they were not abandoned, I should become... a human being,--those asavas in me are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm tree stump, made non-existent, of a nature not to arise again in future time.  Just as, brahmin, a lotus, blue, red, or white, though born in the water, grown up in the water, when it reaches the surface stands there unsoiled by the water,--just so, brahmin, though born in the world, grown up in the world, having overcome the world, I abide unsoiled by the world.  Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin.

(AN text ii, 37; iv, IV, 36; Pali Text Society AN vol II Book of Fours p 44)
 

Dona the brahman is asking what he will become.  Apparently Gautama felt that in answering "take it that I am a Buddha", he answered that question.  That's why I said "of what he would become (and what he was)".  

  

 

 

 

The question was about what he will become, but his answer was present tense, that's why I put "and what he was" in parenthesis--he is saying what he is, but in answer to what he will become.  Sorry if that was confusing (it is confusing).

 

 

 

Right, my literal word-for-word translation.

Again, the original spoken sermon was not in Pali.  Your friend confirms no indefinite article, but can he say that the indefinite article would not have been lost in the transition from whatever language Gautama spoke to Pali, 5 centuries after Gautama?
 

 

What are you thinking the analysis will reveal?  You have something in mind, depending on that article, or some other aspect of "take it that I am a Buddha"?  

The absence of the asavas--here's Gautama's description of his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving":

 

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152)

 

 

Although "the cessation of feeling and perceiving" is not a permanent state, apparently the destruction of the asavas ("cankers") is.
 

 

Hello Mark, it sounds like some terms above are getting mixed up or could be clarified imo, for instance:

Brahmin-= the human priestly class in Hinduism 

Brahma= one cycle of ever recurring cyclic Lord Brahma the creator (lasting an entire cosmic cycle thus an exceedingly long time)

Brahman= the undefinable beyond all categories, Aka the Self as pointed to in the Upanishads and elsewhere. 

Sometimes Brahmin and Brahman are mixed up even in Hinduism but I don't see why...

[Mark Foote]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:28 PM, old3bob said:

 

Hello Mark, it sounds like some terms above are getting mixed up or could be clarified imo, for instance:

Brahmin-= the human priestly class in Hinduism 

Brahma= one cycle of ever recurring cyclic Lord Brahma the creator (lasting an entire cosmic cycle thus an exceedingly long time)

Brahman= the undefinable beyond all categories, Aka the Self as pointed to in the Upanishads and elsewhere. 

Sometimes Brahmin and Brahman are mixed up even in Hinduism but I don't see why...
 

 

I corrected "Dona the brahman" to "Dona the brahmin", thanks, old3bob.

[old3bob]

oakie doakie 

[galen_burnett]

On 23/08/2023 at 7:10 PM, iinatti said:

 

I did mean to insult you, so glad it got through :  )  I am just a hedgehog, so am not really sure what people are saying.  I have found, however, that proselytizing about spiritual experiences makes one look foolish, and arguing about those that you don’t understand even more so.  Aren’t hedgehogs are entitled to their own worldview.

so you’re at once trying to disassociate yourself from the ‘perpetual-bliss’ camp—“prozelytising about spiritual experiences makes one look foolish”—so you can avoid having anything pinned on you; but then you think you can sneak back around and get back in that same camp to sling one at me—“arguing about those you don’t understand even more so”. that’s just slimy: “i never said it! (here i am saying it many times over)”. what don’t i understand? i understand that people think they can get to heaven by meditating. 

 

i don’t think you’re aware of how common the abuse of ‘pretty-privilege’ is in society, and so how obvious it is when people use it—and by extension ‘cuteness-privilege’. i mean, how pathetic is that to think that using a picture of a small animal strengthens your argument?

[galen_burnett]

@Michael Sternbach what do you think archeologists have got wrong about prehistoric civs?

 

i still don’t follow the “nungali is an inaccurate human” bit though, don’t understand that part.

[galen_burnett]

@Ajay0 your reply to me on august 24th. Sure, he advocates independent investigation… but what about that part that you literally just quoted that refutes this to a certain extent—“Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.' “. He’s saying, “investigate independently and you will see for yourself that what the people who are correct—the wise—know is true”; so he’s basically saying all roads lead to Rome, that everyone can take a different path to the truth but all will discover the same truth. And that truth is what he claims to be ‘perpetual-bliss’. So, again, he’s super-clever: he’s like a Disney villain, he says “there’s this palace of gold over there that you can get to… but don’t take my word for it, go and see for yourself” and then you never find said palace because it doesn’t exist. If he hadn’t implanted the fantasy of ‘perpetual-bliss’ in you then you (probably) never would have set out to seek it through your independent investigation and certainly would never have found it in any case because, again, it doesn’t exist

 

”This shows clearly that you have not done your scholarly due diligence or homework, and have faulty premises or weak foundations for your arguments, and this is why you are unable to perceive, and more importantly  attain the joy of the Buddha nature present within yourself. ” you’ve just called someone weak and unsubstantiated without giving any evidence for that allegation, which ironically is a weak and unsubstantiated allegation itself. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by galen_burnett

[galen_burnett]

On 24/08/2023 at 4:24 PM, Daniel said:

 

It's a handheld computer.

 

Here's a very strange, kind of fun, movie about the multi-purpose human.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army_Man  Have you seen it?  It looks like it might be on Hulu.  But I don't have that service, so I cannot confirm.

If only Paul Dano would have had the Swiss-army capabilities of Harry’s wand he might’ve stood a better chance at manipulating Day-Lewis to get his money…

[galen_burnett]

@steve your reply to me on august 24th.

 

your first paragraph: i agree.

 

your second paragraph: i agree up to to the point about ‘being OK with no solution’. No, we can get good at coping, but we will always continue to suffer until we find a solution to whatever problem is causing us trouble. We can adapt even, and it is even possible in theory for a being to adapt to such an extent whereat the once poison is now nectar—a bit like organisms who thrive in extreme temperatures, like the deep-sea volcano critters—but such an extreme adaptation requires a transformation so radical that it would leave you pretty much unrecognisable from what you were in the beginning. Such a radical transformation would be required to adapt completely to the pain of something like, i don’t know, bronchitis, or an injured knee, or M.E. (chronic fatigue), etc. As long as the problem is causing pain, then you are not ‘OK’. We can compromise, and say “i will tolerate this for my life, so long as i get to do this, this and this as well” which bears a resemblance to an acceptance of the pain—but there will still be a relief at the moment of death when the pain passes, or whenever the time comes for that pain to move on.  As for myself, accepting an eternal 50/50 ratio of pain and joy to existence, i don’t know if i can say “i am ok with this”… yes of course the fantasy of a higher ratio of joy [cue everyone saying “bLiSs iS nOt j0yYyYY!!1!1!”] is attractive, but i can’t in good-conscience believe in it, for all the reasons i’ve already given in this thread; 50/50 kind-of blows my mind to think of the neutrality of it, but there we are; and so maybe i do say “i am ok with 50/50”, and by extension i am ok with being in pain as i acknowledge that i will always be one foot in pain and one foot in joy no matter where i go. so i guess in a round-about way i can say i can agree with you on “this pain is ok”; but the difference is that i maintain that a solution will always be sought after, no matter the philosophical acceptance of eternal 50/50, because that’s just how the engine of life works. To say, however, that ‘perpetual-bliss’ can be found in letting go of chasing a solution, a ‘perpetual-bliss’ that transcends both pain and joy, is fallacious; it seems to me that this is what you are implying—in agreement with most others on this thread—even though you have not explicitly stated it.

 

your third paragraph: yes, there you go, you just validated my accusation of Buddhism breaking its own rules. “all things are impermanent, except for ‘perpetual-bliss’ which is achieved through union with the “unconditional”. I’m confident enough that that is what you are implying to call you out on it. But if you are not, and rather you are just commenting on the eternal indelible nature of existence and the universe and its relationship to the constant flux of its forms, then i agree with you—it is a pleasant phenomenon to consider. 

 

your fourth paragraph: yes, there we are, i’m afraid right there you have reiterated the premiss that my whole OP is arguing against. 

[galen_burnett]

On 24/08/2023 at 5:20 PM, liminal_luke said:

The tenets of any given spiritual path can be debated endlessly, obviously.  At a certain point however (ten pages in, perhaps) I start asking myself what's the point.  For some the debate may be intellectually stimulating and fun -- fair enough.  But personally I'm more interested in how people's lives change when they take up this or that spiritual practice.  Do people become happier, kinder, better able to navigate the everyday challenges of life?  If so, my interest is piqued.  For me, the ultimate validity of dependent origination or whatever is secondary.  YMMV

No, you’re not. You’re not fooling me. You’re not agnostic like Daniel, you are definitely in the Enlightenment camp, as everything you’ve said in this thread testifies to. You’re just trying to say the thing that would get the most positively enthusiastic response from people at this point in the thread (‘like’ farming), irregardless of the truth. 

[steve]

8 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

your second paragraph: i agree up to to the point about ‘being OK with no solution’. No, we can get good at coping, but we will always continue to suffer until we find a solution to whatever problem is causing us trouble. We can adapt even, and it is even possible in theory for a being to adapt to such an extent whereat the once poison is now nectar—a bit like organisms who thrive in extreme temperatures, like the deep-sea volcano critters—but such an extreme adaptation requires a transformation so radical that it would leave you pretty much unrecognisable from what you were in the beginning. Such a radical transformation would be required to adapt completely to the pain of something like, i don’t know, bronchitis, or an injured knee, or M.E. (chronic fatigue), etc. As long as the problem is causing pain, then you are not ‘OK’. We can compromise, and say “i will tolerate this for my life, so long as i get to do this, this and this as well” which bears a resemblance to an acceptance of the pain—but there will still be a relief at the moment of death when the pain passes, or whenever the time comes for that pain to move on.  As for myself, accepting an eternal 50/50 ratio of pain and joy to existence, i don’t know if i can say “i am ok with this”… yes of course the fantasy of a higher ratio of joy [cue everyone saying “bLiSs iS nOt j0yYyYY!!1!1!”] is attractive, but i can’t in good-conscience believe in it, for all the reasons i’ve already given in this thread; 50/50 kind-of blows my mind to think of the neutrality of it, but there we are; and so maybe i do say “i am ok with 50/50”, and by extension i am ok with being in pain as i acknowledge that i will always be one foot in pain and one foot in joy no matter where i go. so i guess in a round-about way i can say i can agree with you on “this pain is ok”; but the difference is that i maintain that a solution will always be sought after, no matter the philosophical acceptance of eternal 50/50, because that’s just how the engine of life works. To say, however, that ‘perpetual-bliss’ can be found in letting go of chasing a solution, a ‘perpetual-bliss’ that transcends both pain and joy, is fallacious; it seems to me that this is what you are implying—in agreement with most others on this thread—even though you have not explicitly stated it.

 

It's always interesting to notice how we tend to assume our experience, or our conceptual framework, is necessarily true for others. I suspect you are on the youthful side of life based on your posts. Life has taught me to sometimes 'be OK with no solution.' Perhaps you will come to agree with this someday and perhaps not. While you are entitled to hold on to the belief that "a 'perceptual-bliss' that transcends both pain and joy, is fallacious" you have not made your case to my satisfaction. Conceptual arguments definitely have value but there is much that transcends logic and intellect and much to discover there.

 

8 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

 

your third paragraph: yes, there you go, you just validated my accusation of Buddhism breaking its own rules. “all things are impermanent, except for ‘perpetual-bliss’ which is achieved through union with the “unconditional”. I’m confident enough that that is what you are implying to call you out on it. But if you are not, and rather you are just commenting on the eternal indelible nature of existence and the universe and its relationship to the constant flux of its forms, then i agree with you—it is a pleasant phenomenon to consider. 

 

I'm not too concerned with whether or not Buddhism breaks its own rules. Rules are artificial and conditional by nature. I'm much more interested in understanding what the wisdom teachings are trying to show me. With proper study and practice a deeper and more comprehensive understanding is possible if one has the interest and drive.

 

8 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

 

your fourth paragraph: yes, there we are, i’m afraid right there you have reiterated the premiss that my whole OP is arguing against. 

 

You're welcome.

 

I appreciate your considered response.