Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It absolutely is. Hinduism isn't some unique view of absolute reality, and neither is Buddhism. Enlightenment doesn't belong to any particular tradition or conceptual construct... it COULDN'T.

 

The nature of satcitananda is empty - this is why it is referred to as Satcitananda. None of the 3 aspects wholly captures it. It is all 3 at once, just as emptiness is form and form is emptiness, OR the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are merely 3 ways of looking at God.

 

we can state our take in certain ways (per the site) but the rest of that is trying to stuff it down peoples throats,  thus I suggest your cooling your presumptuous jets.  (btw, at times I've not been innocent of such things myself per my variation)

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by old3bob

[C T]

12 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Maybe the degree depends on how we addressed inanimate objects in childhood.  I remember that I was terribly attached to my stuffed animals, and would often cry into them after being punished for something.  My attachment was so great that it was truly traumatic when a stuffed animal passed on...

 

Growing in spirit often present opportunities to review past traumas with a sort of non-judgemental, dispassioned reflection, recognising these as no more than life augmenting our fears and uncertainties in a highly distorted fashion.

 

Children react differently to adults when they enter a Hall of Mirrors at the fair ground. Basically, life is just one big Hall of Mirrors... when we fully realise this, hopefully there will be an awakening & then we ROFL 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

13 hours ago, manitou said:

  My attachment was so great that it was truly traumatic when a stuffed animal passed on..

 

I have a stuffed toy that looks like a black cat but has round ears - probably a panther

 

The adult owner was moving south and knew that the panther did not want to go.   So I have the panther now - sitting on top of a speaker box right next to me as I type.

 

The panther is very fussy about where it is - and most particular about facing exactly north

 

It pulls on my solar plexus if it is not where it wants to be

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Lairg

[stirling]

14 hours ago, old3bob said:

we can state our take in certain ways (per the site) but the rest of that is trying to stuff it down peoples throats,  thus I suggest your cooling your presumptuous jets.  (btw, at times I've not been innocent of such things myself per my variation)

 

I'm sorry if you feel like I am forcing something on you. I understood us to be discussing the Alan Watts video you linked to.

 

Quote

IMHO, "self", "Self", "mind", and "Mind" are all delusions ultimately.

 

From the perspective of Zen Buddhism (and my experience) this is correct. 

[stirling]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:51 PM, Mark Foote said:

I used to work in a room that had old machines.  One of the people I worked with used to say, "first, benedict the machine."  He also routinely would repeat "be nice to the machine... they're all in the same union", meaning ill will toward this machine might result in a break-down in that one.

All very true, in my experience.

 

Definitely! This is also my experience with computer hardware, cars, machinery, you name it. 

 

If "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" all appearances are awareness, certainly including all mechanical devices. Loving kindness should be extended to ALL appearances in consciousness. It is a tall order, of course.

[steve]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:20 PM, manitou said:

 

 

I don't know if this qualifies as pushing light out from the heart, but if I concentrate on feeling the steering wheel under my hands, I can actually feel love for my little car!  I feel warmth actually radiating from my heart.  It is a great little car, a 2007 Prius. I will drive it until the wheels fall off.  But it does feel like pushing light....

 

P.S. On rare occasion, I feel this for a human being too

 

 

 

Years ago a very time consuming and tedious part of my job was dictating reports on my interaction with people. I hated it, such a waste of time! I returned to work after a 10 day silent retreat and it completely shifted Every dictation was like a mantra. As I chanted the words I could feel the person in my heart and I could feel a warm and loving sense of healing radiating to them with every word I uttered. It was beautiful and completely unexpected. I tried to share my experience with my colleagues but they thought I was crazy, they didn’t have the ears to hear what I was saying. Now most of our documentation is clicking buttons and typing into an app though I still dictate some of it. Not quite as easy to feel the love but still possible.

[old3bob]

13 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I'm sorry if you feel like I am forcing something on you. I understood us to be discussing the Alan Watts video you linked to.

From the perspective of Zen Buddhism (and my experience) this is correct. 

 

sounds more likely to be your interpretation of Zen...is there one appointed or recognized that  speaks for all of Zen teachings and its teachers?  (and Striling is it?) 

 

from "Om Tat Sat" such is true.

Edited July 16, 2023 by old3bob

[steve]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Definitely! This is also my experience with computer hardware, cars, machinery, you name it. 

 

If "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" all appearances are awareness, certainly including all mechanical devices. Loving kindness should be extended to ALL appearances in consciousness. It is a tall order, of course.

 

Absolutely, if what we study and practice is real then every appearance is ultimately ME and all love and warmth I send outward is benefiting ME as well as others.

[manitou]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:58 PM, Lairg said:

 

Visualize a hill/mountain you know well and slide your consciousness back to 2010 to sense how it felt then.

 

Now slide forward to 2018 and sense its feeling then.

 

What is the difference?

 

 

 

There is no feeling in 2018

[manitou]

11 hours ago, C T said:

when we fully realise this, hopefully there will be an awakening & then we ROFL 

 

 

 

Yes, we're a hall of mirrors because we share the same soul, the same consciousness.  Humans communicate with humans.  Squirrels have their own world to interact in, so do cows.  I wouldn't recognize something in you if I didn't have it in me.  Same goes for beauty!  We can see all the beautiful things in the world, the rainbows, the jewels, a sunset - and we appreciate the beauty because we have the beauty inside of us to begin with, otherwise we wouldn't see it as beauty.  Interactions with other humans (in particular, the bad interactions) are exactly the mirrors we need to know ourselves fully.  If we're bothered by the habits of another, it's because we have the very same tendency to some degree.  It gives the opportunity to make the change, smooth out the wrinkle.  In this sense, the mirror nature of life is most helpful for the enlightenment path.  The enlightenment doesn't take place until the wrinkles are gone.  And then it becomes a matter of degrees, all showing itself in its own time.

[manitou]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:25 PM, Mark Foote said:

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:

 

 

I often get stuck right before volition 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by manitou

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

I often get stuck right before volition 

 

That's when you want to whip out the ouija board!

Ok, that's not always fail-safe.  Somewhere I read that the best course is to take in all the facts, and then act from intuition (hence the ouija board).  I believe in that, but there are moments when apparently I haven't quite gathered enough facts?...

 

[old3bob]

I'd say that we definitely do not have the same soul times countless quad-drillions x quad-drillions, etc... thus there is the unique natures that we all have.  But if an individual soul merges back into no longer being identified as individual soul along with their soul/light body no longer existing since it then dissolves into the "ocean" then we could say they are returned to the Supreme-undifferentiated-Soul or Spirit....which almost no one is ready for or evolved to the point of no coming back....Btw it could also be said that we have many that want to be and remain as individual super-duper dudes or dude-etts, so to speak 

Edited July 16, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

20 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It meets with my understanding and teaching perfectly. It is worth looking at at the referenced texts and authors, IMHO. Shankman in particular is a great resource on this topic. 

 

Have you practiced the jhanas with a teacher?

 

I've looked at a lot of people's ideas about the jhanas.  Looking at Shankman now (The Experience of Samadhi), I can see why you might like his approach:

 

This key feature of samadhi, an undistracted singleness of mind, is understood in at least a couple of different ways. Some view it as an exclusive focus on a single object, while others as a broader state of awareness in which the mind remains steady and unmoving, yet aware of a wide range of phenomena around the meditation object. The Pa!i term usually rendered as "one-pointedness of mind,” cittass' ekaggata, can be alternatively translated as "unification of mind.” These two terms, "one-pointedness” and "unification of mind,” are often used synonymously, but can also have different connotations. A one-pointed mind rests firmly and steadily fixed on the object of its attention. Practices such as focusing on the breath, gazing at colored disks, saying mantras, and visualizing build mental stability and calm and undistracted awareness. Concentration can ultimately be strengthened so that it will not waver from the object of its attention at all, to the point that no awareness of any other experience can arise. A mind concentrated in this way is called "one-pointed” because it is totally focused and fixed at one point on a single object.

A unified mind is also settled and undistracted, although not necessarily firmly focused on a single point. Rather than fixing the attention solely on one object or experience, the mind itself becomes still. A l its faculties are brought together and integrated, remaining settled, unwavering, and clearly aware as a wide range of changing experiences unfold. In this case the mind itself is unmoving, but not the flow of experience.

 

At the risk of boring us both, I'm going to repeat koun Franz's observations about "one-pointedness":
 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

 

Shankman has overlooked Franz's "other way to understand this". 

Shankman lists the elements of mindfulness in Anapanasati Sutta:

 

Breathing in and out, the meditator:

 

FIRST TETRAD 1. Knows long breath 2. Knows short breath 3. Trains experiencing the whole body63 4. Trains tranquillizing the bodily formation

 

SECOND TETRAD 5. Trains experiencing rapture 6. Trains experiencing pleasure 7. Trains experiencing mental formations 8. Trains tranquillizing mental formations

 

THIRD TETRAD 9. Trains experiencing the mind 10. Trains gladdening the mind 11. Trains concentrating the mind 12. Trains liberating the mind

 

FOURTH TETRAD 13. Trains contemplating impermanence 14. Trains contemplating dispassion 15. Trains contemplating cessation 16. Trains contemplating letting go

 

 

Interesting way to format it.  I don't believe it's possible to "train" as described without breathing in and out--not going to hold our breath, as we train, are we?  

He's a bit confused in the first part of that first "tetrad".  Here's Woodward's translation, and I'll add a "1" and a "2" for the correct demarcation of the elements:

 

… Setting mindfulness in front of (oneself), [1] (one) breathes in mindfully and mindfully breathes out.

 

[2] As (one) draws in a long breath (one) knows: A long breath I draw in. [As (one) breathes out a long breath (one) knows: I breathe out a long breath.] As (one) draws in a short breath (one) knows: A short breath I draw in. As (one) breathes out a short breath (one) knows: I breathe out a short breath.

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276)

 

 

Shankman doesn't explain "cessation", and he doesn't mention the cessation of inhalation and exhalation in the fourth jhana.  How could he not mention that!
 

“…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

Shankman has read the Pali sermons, and he's researched some terms.  I wonder, does he ever attempt to put his interpretation into practice?  

So far, the lotus is my teacher (ok--half-lotus right now), with help from the voice of the first four Nikayas and some fellow journeyers.

 

Student: And what is your role as my teacher?

 

SR: “Your teacher,” you say, but actually I am your friend. I cannot do anything for you. Tentatively, I will treat you in this way.

("SR", Suzuki Roshi; http://cukenew.blogspot.com/2023/07/walk-with-your-own-feet.html)

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

36 minutes ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that we definitely do not have the same soul times countless quad-drillions x quad-drillions, etc... thus there is the unique natures that we all have.  But if an individual soul merges back into no longer being identified as individual soul along with their soul/light body no longer existing since it then dissolves into the "ocean" then we could say they are returned to the Supreme-undifferentiated-Soul or Spirit....which almost no one is ready for or evolved to the point of no coming back....Btw it could also be said that we have many that want to be and remain as individual super-duper dudes or dude-etts, so to speak 

 

Reincarnation 101.  I like the way you put it, old3bob.

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

There is no feeling in 2018

 

What is the feeling in 2010?

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

This is also my experience with computer hardware, cars, machinery, you name it. 

 

Just along from me in the complex there has recently been made a creek-drain filled with large rocks from a quarry.  The rocks are unhappy - having been brutalized with explosives. 

 

I have given the woman living next to them the task of rehabilitating them with love.   I will observe her progress.

 

 

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

I often get stuck right before volition

 

That is where I make a decision and go forward on the timeline to see if I like the effect of the decision/action. 

 

If not I make another decision and test that too. 

[stirling]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

sounds more likely to be your interpretation of Zen...is there one appointed or recognized that speaks for all of Zen teachings and its teachers?  (and Striling is it?) 

 

from "Om Tat Sat" such is true.

 

Dogen is the head to the Soto Zen lineage... my lineage. Students become teachers when they have been recognized to have prajna and are entrusted to speak for themselves.

 

They are my words, but not an interpretation... not necessarily Zen, just how things are understood from emptiness. In Buddhism it is an understanding often popularly expressed in the Heart Sutra. Do you know it? Just as Sat Chit and Ananda are illusory qualities of ultimate reality, in the Heart Sutra:

 

Quote

 

...form is no different to emptiness, emptiness no different to form.

That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness, form.

Sensations, perceptions, impressions, and consciousness are also like this. - Heart Sutra, Buddha

 

 

Meaning that no thing has a reality of its own. Though individual things appears distinct from one another in the world they are all ultimately "empty" of their own existence, and thus NOT separate in any real way. They are all "not two". 

 

Quote

Satcitananda (सच्चिदानन्द) is a compounded Sanskrit word consisting of "sat", "chit", and "ananda", all three considered as inseparable from the nature of ultimate reality called Brahman in Hinduism.^[9] The different forms of spelling is driven by euphonic (sandhi) rules of Sanskrit, useful in different contexts.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda#:~:text=Satcitananda (Sanskrit%3A सच्चिदानन्द%2C IAST,of Hindu philosophy%2C especially Vedanta.

 

Sat Chit and Ananda can be spoken of as separate things, but they are ultimately NOT separate, ultimately all Brahman like everything else. 

 

If you think I have it wrong, Bob, why don't you take a little time to explain to me why?

Edited July 16, 2023 by stirling

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Definitely! This is also my experience with computer hardware, cars, machinery, you name it. 

 

If "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" all appearances are awareness, certainly including all mechanical devices. Loving kindness should be extended to ALL appearances in consciousness. It is a tall order, of course.

 

 

 

Teacher enjoys and laughs a lot when he sees it coming in me  .... and he knows I like to 'play up '  ..... of course, the Aboriginals react better as they are closer to magic and nature and its wonders than the average Aussie :

 

They are trying to get a chainsaw started , one swears at it, the other says, 'No no, it will start, its been to the shop and we got it fixed, they guy there started it up and ran it before we left ."  So they keep trying , eventually they erupt in  swearing , cursing, abusing, calling the  mechanic a rip off arse hole ....

 

Me: " Do you want me to start it for you ."  - a chorus of groans  and " here we go " and more swearing    

" Poor little chainsaw ... they have been abusing you  ( pat pat ) but I wont do that, you'll start for me won't you ." -  more groans and exasperating noises and swearing .  ....... one soft pull ;  put put put put ,,, vroom   

 

EVEN MORE swearing and incredulous exclamations , teacher laughing   ....  

 

- anyway he tells me, sometimes they do a stint out west working in the mining industry to get some cash . They dont like working for Aussies or Chinese but like the Japanese . Why ?  They have a better understanding and follow the rules and regs better and " When a new truck arrives, this guy in a funny costume with a little square hat does a ceremony on it . "

Me; "  Oh ? A Shinto priest maybe ?  Why do they do that ? ?

"To bless it . "

" Oh .... they consider such things ... miners ? "

" Well, they found out if they do that , the trucks dont break down as much, so they save money ."

 

- it didnt work on my Honda CRV though !      the little bastard just kept breaking this and that , could not keep up with the issues although doing constant repairs  and then the fix engine light came on, indicates 3 major problems and kept going into limp mode . Fine , I will not re register you , I'll save the money, no more repairs and now you are a 'farm vehicle' .

 

I went to take the plates off to hand them in and it would not give them up , the front one decided to be stubborn ... yeah ? , meet my friend 'Mr large wrecking bar ' ... I did take delight  in removing the front plate and anything that wanted to be attached to it .

 

And now ? no plates , a smashed in front ... and the check engine light has gone out and it has  come out of limp mode .

 

- the  sneaky little bugger decided to retire to a farm life , and like me at times ,  does not want to leave the property to deal with the hassle of the outside world .

 

 

[Shadow_self]

On 14/07/2023 at 2:11 AM, stirling said:

Allow me to share a bit about my background: I am a Soto Zen teacher in the Shunryu Suzuki lineage, this for the last 8 years. Both of my teachers have been transmitted. Before that I worked in the Tibetan Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition for 25 years with a number of realized teachers.

 

Zen is outside my realm of understanding   so no comments here Though I do know some who speak highly

 

Quote

The only realization that matters in the Mahayana tradition (and in my opinion) is insight into Sunyata, which encompasses both "no-self", and more wholly, "emptiness".

 

So only insight? or is there something else going on there? 

 

Quote

In my work we are using the combination of Vipassana and Shamatha to see through the delusion of intrinsic existence. 

 

Ah the twin kammaṭṭhāna

 

One way I work uses Samatha (and some other things) to work towards jhana to get to a place you can use Vipassana.

 

Having the Bojjhaṅgas finely tuned equates to the ability to work within this space  

 

Quote

Yes. Somewhere past 6th jhana or so into the formless realms. I stopped eventually, as it isn't insight into actual things, but rather into states that resemble insight. I did this all backwards (like everything I do in my life) having had insight first, then learning the jhanas out of curiosity to see how attainable they were. Keep in mind that the jhanas are not typically an object of study in many of the Tibetan schools (for this reason above). They are considered counter-productive.

 

I dont think we are talking about the same things here, and thats ok  

 

As far as my understanding goes, once you get involved with the upper 4 jhanas, you get into the rainbow and light bodies etc

 

All manner of weird things begin happening even at the first stages of entry and stabilization  of the lower jhanas (think light, visible to others externally)

 

In other words,  the perspectice I am talking about would be that entering and stabilizing the jhanas should come with fairly profound psychophysical changes and abilities (for want of a better word)

 

Quote

I'm fine with this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Buddhism#The_jhāna/dhyana-stages

 

Yes I suspected we have definitions that are rather divergent. You may have noted from my sentances regards the complete detachement from sensory conciousness as a pre-requisite

 

Quote

 

It honestly doesn't. It isn't anything like what I have learned first hand or read in the traditions I have worked in.  It sounds like cultivation-type activity which is entirely at odds with my practice history and outside of my experience.

 

Yes, I understand  

 

I happen to have been fortunate enough to come across a few people who have given me hints, tips, tricks, methods, teachings, and a few links to some pre-reform Buddhist practices, so when you start hearing about how things were done vs how they currently are, it starts to make a bit more sense (I am talking here from the Theravadan perspective only)

 

The emphasis on Vipassana over Jhana for example is a relatively new phenomena, it certainly was not how things were always done

 

Quote

Maybe you mean shamatha? You need both for jhana. 

 

Samatha practices would be the way to work towards the jhana

 

Samatha leads to Jhana which affords one the opportunity to use vipassana and that leads to very esoteric transformations.  from the perspective Im coming from at least

 

However, thats just one perspective, im not claming any ultimate truth here  

 

Quote

The practice of Dzogchen in Tibetan Buddhism (and shikantaza in Soto Zen) IS both shamatha and vipassana. It is meditating and taking in the entire dharma field moment-to-moment. Doing so breaks down time, space, and self, giving the practitioner a first hand view into the construction of reality AND non-duality. 

 

This sounds like Zuowang

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuowang

 

 

Quote

In my experience the earliest stages are all body-bound. They are initially about inclining toward,  first,  bliss in the body, then bliss in the mind then having those drop out, moving further and further toward the sense doors dropping out. It is from 5 on that are the "arupa" (formless, or "no body") that are where consciousness of body and outside world drops away. It isn't like the death process in my experience... not that I remember dying ever. It isn't really like.... anything. The point of it being formless and "empty" is that conceptual designations or consciousness of any separateness become finer and finer and drop away.

 

 

Does this look familar?

 

 

Quote

I'll have to take your word for it.  Awareness of awareness is the what Dzogchen and shikantaza are about. I imagine this is what you are getting at. 

 

Yes, more or less awarness kind of reversing on top of itself to see source.

 

This is basically what happens at the point of death, it is an involuntary thing in that case though

 

(Curiously, the image above makes a lot more sense when framed in that context )

 

Quote

Yeah, absolutely! Part of what makes this all so fascinating is the psychonautic aspect of the practice and what we discover about reality as we go along. Love that stuff. It only gets weirder and weirder.

 

Indeed so. Doing tantric work (pjysical practices)  alongside meditative practices seems to really ramp up the weird though  

 

Quote

Thanks for chiming in! 

 Likewise Most interesting to hear your perspective

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Dogen is the head to the Soto Zen lineage... my lineage. Students become teachers when they have been recognized to have prajna and are entrusted to speak for themselves.

 

They are my words, but not an interpretation... not necessarily Zen, just how things are understood from emptiness. In Buddhism it is an understanding often popularly expressed in the Heart Sutra. Do you know it? Just as Sat Chit and Ananda are illusory qualities of ultimate reality, in the Heart Sutra:

 

Meaning that no thing has a reality of its own. Though individual things appears distinct from one another in the world they are all ultimately "empty" of their own existence, and thus NOT separate in any real way. They are all "not two". 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda#:~:text=Satcitananda (Sanskrit%3A सच्चिदानन्द%2C IAST,of Hindu philosophy%2C especially Vedanta.

 

Sat Chit and Ananda can be spoken of as separate things, but they are ultimately NOT separate, ultimately all Brahman like everything else. 

 

If you think I have it wrong, Bob, why don't you take a little time to explain to me why?

 

that would probably not do any good since you are such and such a teacher with a leg up on others and who brags about it....while also making presumptions about Hinduism without being one, btw I'm only a visitor and guest to Hinduism so you will have to get your qualified answers from whatever enlightened Guru you can find while keeping protocol?  Btw I'm not interested in becoming a Buddhist although I appreciate many of the wise sayings that have come from it.

Edited July 17, 2023 by old3bob

[Creation]

On 7/13/2023 at 3:16 PM, Shadow_self said:

Of course, but what are we actually trying to do here with the Vipassana?

Right.  There are, in general, two general things that vipassana can mean, that in my reckoning are really not even remotely the same.  One is to develop the insight that phenomena in general have some universal nature, for example emptiness or the three characteristics.  The other is to develop detailed and specific insight about the smallest constituents and causal connections between the specific phenomena of mental and physical experience.  The latter requires jhana, the former does not. 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

that would probably not do any good since you are such and such a teacher with a leg up on others and who brags about it....while also making presumptions about Hinduism without being one, btw I'm only a visitor and guest to Hinduism so you will have to get your qualified answers from whatever enlightened Guru you can find while keeping protocol?  Btw I'm not interested in becoming a Buddhist although I appreciate many of the wise sayings that have come from it.

 

I honestly didn't know you had some much resentment and vitriol piled up at me. I'm sorry if I have somehow slighted or insulted you in some way.

 

Honestly, I am here to make friends. My intention isn't to brag, it is to be helpful. I'm sorry that hasn't come across.

 

I did do a stint in tech and met any number of Hindus of different levels of philosophical knowledge and got a real feel for what the non-dual aspects mean and how they relate to Buddhism. I was surprised to find myself accepted... the Buddha being just another avatar, I guess. 

 

Despite my Zen priesthood I am still a HUGE fan of Tibetan Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, The Upanishads, Taoism, and even chaos magic and Crowley Thelema and more. My intention isn't to convert anybody, but point to the fact that so many traditions come from a single simple origin. I realize this idea doesn't resonate with you. You are convinced that these are different understandings. I get it. Feel free to put me on your ignore list. I would understand. Either way, I'll try to be more sensitive to your feelings on the matter in the future. 

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

So only insight? or is there something else going on there? 

 

We might have different ideas about what "insight" is. I am speaking specifically about complete insight into Sunyata (emptiness), which changes EVERYTHING. 

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Emptiness

 

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

One way I work uses Samatha (and some other things) to work towards jhana to get to a place you can use Vipassana.

 

Shamatha and Vipassan arise naturally in Dzogchen practice effortlessly.

 

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Having the Bojjhaṅgas finely tuned equates to the ability to work within this space  

 

Those "qualities" balance themselves, in my experience. 

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I dont think we are talking about the same things here, and thats ok  

 

I agree. What you are talking about sounds different.

 

My understanding of the jhanas is that it is possible to follow them through increasingly deeper experiences of emptiness, progressively experiencing the dropping of subtler levels of being. They are ONLY states, but are entirely possible to actually HAVE as ACTUAL experiences and understanding at a MUCH deeper level than any state, in the same way that time/space/self distortion with psychedelics is not the ability to see or understand those experiences after they wear off - but they ARE real understandings.

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

As far as my understanding goes, once you get involved with the upper 4 jhanas, you get into the rainbow and light bodies etc

 

This sounds more like end of life Tibetan practices, like Togal, etc. If you are doing jhanas without insight into Sunyata none of that is going to happen in reality, from my understanding. 

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

All manner of weird things begin happening even at the first stages of entry and stabilization  of the lower jhanas (think light, visible to others externally)

 

Weird things might happen during meditation, but what about when you are off the cushion. My experience is that it takes insight into Sunyata to get there. Sounds like we are talking about siddhis now?

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

In other words,  the perspectice I am talking about would be that entering and stabilizing the jhanas should come with fairly profound psychophysical changes and abilities (for want of a better word)

 

Insight into the nature "empty" of reality/Sunyata DOES come with both of those.

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Yes I suspected we have definitions that are rather divergent. You may have noted from my sentances regards the complete detachement from sensory conciousness as a pre-requisite

 

Sure. Agreed. No problem.

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I happen to have been fortunate enough to come across a few people who have given me hints, tips, tricks, methods, teachings, and a few links to some pre-reform Buddhist practices, so when you start hearing about how things were done vs how they currently are, it starts to make a bit more sense (I am talking here from the Theravadan perspective only)

 

I'd be curious to hear about your experience. Most of my teachers were either actual Tibetans who escaped in the 50's, or Ngakpa Tertons. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Samatha practices would be the way to work towards the jhana

 

Agreed.

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

This sounds like Zuowang

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuowang

 

Without a have a lot of information, I agree that they sound similar.

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Does this look familar?

 

 

Wait! Isn't this the thing appears in the sky most nights!  I assume you are talking about the aurora around it? Are you asking me if I see it around most things I observe?

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Yes, more or less awarness kind of reversing on top of itself to see source.

 

Awareness IS the source! The witness observing a separate world is a delusion. There are only subjects... no object. 

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

This is basically what happens at the point of death, it is an involuntary thing in that case though

 

Are birth and death real, or are they stories we tell ourselves about experience we haven't actually had?

 

Trick question: How many other moments are there than this one?

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Indeed so. Doing tantric work (pjysical practices)  alongside meditative practices seems to really ramp up the weird though  

 

Seeing through duality ramps it up even more.