Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[old3bob]

 

“That which seems most feeble and bewildered in you is the strongest and most determined.
Is it not your breath that has erected and hardened the structure of your bones?
And is it not a dream which none of you re member having dreamt, that built your city and fashioned all there is in it?
Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else,
And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound.
But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well.”
― Kahlil Gibran

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Think about this: Is watching the breath or resting in emptiness the higher practice. Does the Buddha (or any other enlightened being) sit around all day watching their breath, or are they liberated and able to just "be"? In Zazen while watching the breath there is always losing concentration or dropping the object... what is there to drop in just being? 

 

Just writing about that now:

 

When the location of attention is free to shift as things enter into the movement of breath, even if things enter into the movement of breath before they enter into consciousness, then the location of attention can generate activity in the body with awareness present but without the exercise of volition. Sitting with awareness present but without the exercise of volition is “just sitting”, or shikantaza.

 

Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, Aspects of Seated Meditation, “Shikantaza”; jikoji.org)

 

 

17 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Quote

 
I am saying that when the presence of mind sustains the placement of attention by the movement of breath, the mind is concentrated in breathing.  How the mind should be used is quite clear.
 

You are complicating it. I have training in both Zazen and Shikantaza. My interest (or ANY Soto Zen teacher's interest) is always in seeing if a student can do shikantaza FIRST, in the same way that a Nyingma teacher would see if a student could recognize Rigpa and just rest in it rather than watch thoughts, or one step down, breath. It is a GREAT place to start. Then we deepen practice, dropping doing and self. 
 

 

 

Difference between you and me, stirling, is that I can act without volition but with awareness that the action is taking place, and you have yet to experience such a thing, if I understand you correctly. 

 

 

17 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Do you have a teacher you can talk to about this? If you tell me where you are, I might be able to direct you to one. I personally know a couple of Kobun's students who are teachers if that is enticing. I mean this in kindness and sincerity.
 

Lineage isn't everything.

 

 

17 hours ago, stirling said:

 

This is Shikantaza embodied. What happens when there is no object? Liberation. The practice you are somehow unsure about is precisely the practice that embodies what you seek. It is beyond process, ligaments, doing, etc. Simple, clean, elegant, uncluttered. 

 

 

 

I'll take my clutter, at least I know where everything is!

I know, you're just trying to help.  I appreciate that.  But really, stirling--these beans I traded the cow for are magic beans!



 

[old3bob]

 

okay,  so would you make a deal for all that valuable clutter?

 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

okay,  so would you make a deal for all that valuable clutter?

 

 

That's exciting.  Somebody's really into it!

[stirling]

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Difference between you and me, stirling, is that I can act without volition but with awareness that the action is taking place, and you have yet to experience such a thing, if I understand you correctly.

 

This is nicely put. I would modify it slightly to say:

 

Quote

There is action without volition but with awareness that the action is taking place...

 

...and the important question being, who owns the awareness that notices the action taking place?

 

This is definitely an experience I understand well, Mark. In or out of meditation I can notice that there is no volition and no-self to have ever owned volition. In fact, there is no-one anywhere to ever have HAD volition... it is a delusion, merely a byproduct of the belief in a "self".

 

As Daniel Ingram elegantly summarizes "no-self":

 

Quote

Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. - Daniel Ingram

 

Agency being something that the person that owns volition would have - a person who believes that they are in charge of their actions. 

 

Further:

 

Quote

Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could. - Daniel Ingram

 

There is no person separate from what happens that could have agency or act with volition. Things naturally happen where they happen. No illusory subject/object duality. This is penetrating to the very deepest level of your interest in volition. Understanding that volition is illusory could easily be the crack that opens up the whole shebang... this is the reason for my interest. 

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Lineage isn't everything.

 

I get the feeling that you respect Kobun, so I thought that the students that he actually entrusted to teach might interest you. A number of them are truly an amazing bunch, and they are full of great Kobun stories as a bonus. I agree that LINEAGE isn't everything, but having experiential knowledge of what enlightenment IS ends up being extremely valuable. It is easy to misunderstand the written dharma - a teacher with insight can guide us through our misunderstandings. 

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I'll take my clutter, at least I know where everything is!

 

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I know, you're just trying to help.  I appreciate that.  But really, stirling--these beans I traded the cow for are magic beans!

 

My motivation IS to be helpful. I think you are actually intellectually close to something important and would love to help you get to it. This is what I live for!  I have a feeling that it is possible that your dedication might pay off, but I don't think it will be your intellectual dedication. Either way, I have decided that I will refrain from further commenting on your posts about this topic when you raise it, except at your invitation. 

 

Bows.

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

This is definitely an experience I understand well, Mark. 
 

 

One day in 1975, i made a determination that I was going to try to be mindful of each inhalation and exhalation, no matter what I was doing.  Sometime in the afternoon, I was sitting at my desk when my body got up and walked to the door of the room, but not because I exercised the will to walk to the door.

Does that sound like an experience that can be understood?

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

(Genjo Koan, tr Kazuaki Tanahashi)
 

 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I get the feeling that you respect Kobun, so I thought that the students that he actually entrusted to teach might interest you. A number of them are truly an amazing bunch, and they are full of great Kobun stories as a bonus. 

 

 

When the old timers get together, and not just the teachers, they truly are an amazing bunch.  Kobun's guerilla army, dying out now.

 

 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I agree that LINEAGE isn't everything, but having experiential knowledge of what enlightenment IS ends up being extremely valuable. It is easy to misunderstand the written dharma - a teacher with insight can guide us through our misunderstandings.
 

"Gain is delusion; loss is enlighenment" (Sawaki)--you know.  

The difficulty in appreciating Gautama's way of living, and the way of living that he recommended for those who are arahant, is in having sufficient lack of desire to experience the cessation of inhalation and exhalation (regularly).  The difficulty in attaining enlightenment is apparently having sufficient lack of desire to arrive at the cessation of feeling and perceiving--I don't really know!
 

 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

My motivation IS to be helpful. I think you are actually intellectually close to something important and would love to help you get to it. This is what I live for!  I have a feeling that it is possible that your dedication might pay off, but I don't think it will be your intellectual dedication. Either way, I have decided that I will refrain from further commenting on your posts about this topic when you raise it, except at your invitation. 

 

Bows.
 

 

You do as you see fit, of course.  I'm not going to invite you, or disinvite you.

Dao Bums is a place where, with the help of others, we teach ourselves.  That's the way I understand it.  

Thanks for the dialogue so far--all good things your way!

 

[old3bob]

"Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent."

(Genjo Koan, tr Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

...and conversely could we not also say,  although the inconceivable is apparent it may not be immediately actualized?

Edited August 8, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

One day in 1975, i made a determination that I was going to try to be mindful of each inhalation and exhalation, no matter what I was doing.  Sometime in the afternoon, I was sitting at my desk when my body got up and walked to the door of the room, but not because I exercised the will to walk to the door.

 

Thank you for sharing this story. I've never heard you tell it. I'd say we have Kensho there, so you know the flavor. Nice one!
 

Quote

Does that sound like an experience that can be understood?

 

Absolutely! That's what ALWAYS happens when you get up, or do anything really. The mistake is in thinking that there has ever been anyone in charge. 

 

19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

(Genjo Koan, tr Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

See above. The "inconceivable" is just reality actualizing enlightenment in this moment, doing its thing. 

 

Quote

When the old timers get together, and not just the teachers, they truly are an amazing bunch.  Kobun's guerilla army, dying out now. 

 

Definitely Doug Jacobsen, Angie Boussevain, Vanja Palmers, and Ian Forsberg are worth seeking out.

 

Quote

"Gain is delusion; loss is enlighenment" (Sawaki)--you know.

 

Well... sure. We are all already enlightened, it just "may not be apparent". Nothing to gain, just the realization of what is always already true.

 

Quote

The difficulty in appreciating Gautama's way of living, and the way of living that he recommended for those who are arahant, is in having sufficient lack of desire to experience the cessation of inhalation and exhalation (regularly).  The difficulty in attaining enlightenment is apparently having sufficient lack of desire to arrive at the cessation of feeling and perceiving--I don't really know!

 

How about this: the arahant no longer suffers the delusion that they are in charge - not even of their breath, desire, feeling or perceiving. The predominant mode of "mind" is "don't know". 

 

Quote

You do as you see fit, of course.  I'm not going to invite you, or disinvite you.

Dao Bums is a place where, with the help of others, we teach ourselves.  That's the way I understand it.  

Thanks for the dialogue so far--all good things your way!

 

I am not going anywhere, there just won't be more dialogue on this particular topic. I've said everything I need to say. 

[manitou]

The Dao is a bellows

[Cobie]

20 minutes ago, manitou said:

… bellows

橐籥  tuo2 yue4  -  wind box

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

The Dao is a bellows

 

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

橐籥  tuo2 yue4  -  wind box

 

cobie, how would you translate the remainder of the verse?

[Cobie]

This type of bellows would be a euphemism for the male ‘willie’.

 

 

 

Ch. 5 refers to the wind box, which is a euphemism for the female womb

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

The Dao is a bellows

 

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

橐籥  tuo2 yue4  -  wind box

 

35 minutes ago, Daniel said:

cobie, how would you translate the remainder of the verse?

 

28 minutes ago, Cobie said:

bellows - euphemism for a male ‘willie’

wind box - euphemism for a female womb

 

Here is the verse:

 

其猶橐籥乎？虛而不屈，動而愈出。多言數窮，不如守中。

 

The part in blue seems to clarify the intention of the part in red.  I'm curious how you are translating the part in blue.  Please?

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

This might be helpful...

 

https://baike.baidu.com/item/橐/5874987

https://baike.baidu.hk/item/籥/7002680

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

The Dao is a bellows

 

Often translated as “The Dao is like a bellows”, there actually is no ‘Dao’ mentioned in Ch. 5 part 2 line 1.
天 地 之 間 亓 猷 橐 籥 tian1 di4 zhi1 jian4 qi2 you2 tuo2 yue4 - the space between sky and earth, is it not like a wind box? 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Often translated as “ The Tao is like a bellows”, there actually is no ‘Tao’ mentioned in Ch. 5 part 2 line 1.
天 地 之 間 亓 猷 橐 籥 tian1 di4 zhi1 jian4 qi2 you2 tuo2 yue4 - the space between sky and earth, is it not like a wind box? 

 

Verse 4 sets up verse 5:   道沖而用之或不盈...

 

And the remainder of verse 5 is important, is it not?

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

https://quatr.us/history/bellows-invented-bellows.htm

 

By 400 BC, people in China used ox-hide bellows. They were using more efficient double-action piston box bellows by the early Han Dynasty, about 200 BC. These bellows blow air both when they’re opened and when they’re closed, so they’re more efficient than the pot bellows.

 

The double action ( simultaneously closing and opening ) is a rather important improvement, especially for metalurgy ( alchemy ) and producing consistent even smooth temperatures for tempering.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

… box bellows …

 

Yes, I’m familiar with it, I had a thread about it on the Original Dao forum, and posted about it last month here on DB. The Chinese call it a wind box (橐籥 = 風箱 - wind box). English https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wind box 

I prefer this name to distinguish it from this 

 

I edited my above post to clarify the distinction.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 18/08/2023 at 11:03 PM, Daniel said:

道沖而用之或不盈...

 

Are you sure this translates as ‘Dao’? 
 

道 does not always mean ‘Dao’. 
 

Spoiler

This is the Kroll dictionary https://brill.com/display/title/20918?language=en

This is it’s listing for 道 :

~~~<>~~~

dao4 

~~~<>~~~

~~~ 

1.            

~~~

way that leads somewhere, road, route, pathway, passage.

~~~ 

2. 

~~~

the Way; as image suggesting how things actually exist,

fundamental  reality, 

a constant Way in which the diverse ways of living and relating 

are essentially balanced and whole.

~~~ a. ~~~

conceptual term used by all schools of thought, 

with same root metaphor but varying connotations:

Confucian 

‘Way’ incl. norms of social responsibility and personal conduct

exemplified by ideal worthies 

such as King Wen of the Zhou, the Duke of Zhou, etc.;

Dao. 

‘Way’ points to absolute and ineffable reality

behind flux and modalities of the world, 

and advisability of taking it as model; 

Budd. 

‘Way’ incl. possibility of release from the round-of-birth-and-death 

(samsara) and recognition of contingent and 

impermanent nature of human existence.

~~~ b. ~~~

道士 dao4 shi4 

gentleman of the Way, exemplar of the Confucian ‘Way’;

also, expert in the ‘Way’, 

specialist in occult or mantic [μάντης fortune teller] practices, 

syn. 方士 fang4 shi4; 

also (med.), Daoist adept, usu. associated with 

an organised Dao. community (see 5a below), priest. 

N.B. Contrast these with (med.) 道人 dao4 ren2, 

man of religion, a Budd. monk (not Dao.).

~~~  

3. 

~~~

way of doing something, course of action, method, proper procedure, 

practice;

e.g. 所以 求 之 之 道 suo3 yi3 qiu2 zhi1 zhi0 dao4, 

the means by which one seeks it;

道場 dao4 chang2, 

place of practice, arena of the Way, 

altar, 

Budd. or Dao. chapel.

~~~ a. ~~~

guiding road, rule of conduct, 

principle,  guidelines.

~~~ b. ~~~

doctrine, tenets, dicta; 

teachings.

~~~ c. ~~~ 

(Budd.) the Buddha-path, path to enlightenment.

~~~ 

4. 

~~~

skill or art of a particular kind, 

specialisation.

~~~ 

5. 

~~~

ideas and teachings 

esp. associated with the texts Zhuangzi and Laozi (or Daodejing); 

e.g. 道家 dao4 jia1, 

lineage of the Way, 

bibliographic category ref. to these and related texts, 

often defined as ‘philosophical Daoism’ in contrast to next.

~~~ a. ~~~

practices

esp. associated with movements and texts relating to 

masters of self-cultivation, pursuit of immortality, 

and various organised religious communities,

esp. those ultimately deriving from the Way of the Celestial Masters

(tiashidao 天 師 道

[tian1 shi1 dao4]) 

founded in mid-2nd-c. CE;

e.g. (med.) 道教 dao4 jiao4, 

teaching of the Way, from early 5th-c. CE 

a term assoc. with groups and texts just described,

often defined now as ‘religious Daoism’.

~~~ 

6

~~~

say, speak; express, communicate orally; cue.

~~~ 

7. 

~~~

circuit, administrative area outside the usu. prefecture/district 

(junxian 郡縣 [jun4 xian4 prefecture county]) structure; in 

Han times 

ref. frontier areas mainly populated by non-Chinese; in 

Tang times 

also ref. frontier area but from 

706 on 

more importantly to large units of province size throughout the state, 

each of which (10 at first) incl. many prefectures and 

governed by special commissioners (shi 使 [shi3 - sent]).

~~~ 

8. 

~~~

(med.) understand, be aware of; think, presume. 

~~~ a. ~~~

a. (med.) expect;  have a sense that X is likely to happen. 

~~~<>~~~

dao3 

~~~<>~~~

~~~ 

1. 

~~~

(interchangeable) 導 dao3 [only in its first meaning] 1, 

lead, lead the way, show the way; 

conduct, guide.  

The End (of the Kroll listing of 道 dao)

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Yes, I’m familiar with it, I had a thread about it on the Original Dao forum. The Chinese call it a wind box (橐籥 = 風箱 - wind box). English https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wind box 

I prefer this name to distinguish it from this 

 

 

And before that, they wuld have used something like this which matches the meaning of 橐籥 from DDJ v.5.  Where are you getting 風箱?

 

Human breath blow-pipes:

 

 

 

Quote

I edited my above post to clarify the distinction.

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

this type of bellows would be a euphemism for the male ‘willie’

 

 

 

Ch. 5 refers to the wind box, which is a euphemism for the female womb

 

 

If it's important you, so be it.  The DDJ 5 seems to be focused on the air that is moving and it is inexhaustible not the shape nor the gender designation.  Which is why I keep asking for your translation of the remainder of the verse.

 

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Verse 4 sets up verse 5:   道沖而用之或不盈...

 

40 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Are you sure this translates as ‘Dao’.

 

I am sure that it is the title of the book.  

 

In reviewing the verses which use this specific character in the DDJ, I'm nt seeing much relevance in the variations you brought. 

 

For example:

 

道士 isn't in the DDJ

道場 isn't in the DDJ

道教 isn't in the DDJ

 

And the kroll dictionary is covering a large time range 500 BCE to 1000 CE.  I think the DDJ should be used to understand what it intends to be meant by 道.  Which is why I keep asking for your translation of the remainder of verse 5.

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

… the kroll dictionary …

 

Which dictionary do you use?

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Which dictionary do you use?

 

For this... see below:  They're encyclopedia entries. 

 

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

https://baike.baidu.com/item/橐/5874987

https://baike.baidu.hk/item/籥/7002680

 

 

[whocoulditbe?]

F. Y. I. Baike is Chinese Wikipedia. It's user generated.

[Cobie]

 

@Daniel what dictionary do you usually use?

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

@Daniel what dictionary do you usually use?

 

@Cobie, what's your translation of the remainder of verse 5?