Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[old3bob]

"Understanding the mechanics of something is one thing, actually putting them into practice and getting them to work is another thing entirely in my opinion at least,

As long as the latter escapes them (and I think that will always be the case) I remain happy enough"

 

: true enough but the implied intent of dark forces would probably not be to get things working as originally intended or designed if that is what you meant for the dharmic benefit of beings but for the opposite of that and thus a corruption for evil ways...   I don't know all the story by a long shot but there was Milarepa who used (Tibetan) magic  that at some point in history before him  must have  also been corrupted into black sorcery  which he used to murder village people, fortunately he turned to Buddhism and repentance of those deeds,  while unfortunately some do not turn back like he did.  

Edited July 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Thanks for the extensive reply, and the source work.  

I was able to skim a little bit of Damo Mitchell's text.  Looking at the Preface and the Acknowledgements, what stands out to me is that he doesn't credit any teachers, but only the text, "Sinew-Changing Classic"

 

Reading a little more, he actually sought out teachers, but determined that they pretended to know more than they actually did!  So, he worked it out himself. I understand that, of course I'm doing the same thing.  I guess I have to conclude that you feel you've benefited greatly from what he has to offer.  That's great, of course.

 

I would think that meditating on this point would be something worthwhile

 

Hopefully the utility of his book will become apparent then

 

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I'm not looking for bones of steel.

 

Thats more a reference to a  rather pointless side effect, that what the actual purpose of the YJJ and XSJ  are

 

Let me quote the book again

 

Quote

Remember that the Sinew-Changing Classic could actually be called the ‘Channel-Opening Classic’ as this is its prime goal.

 

Hopefully that makes it a bit clearer

 

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

  I keep wondering why people look past the relinquishment of volition in the activity of breathing, and what makes that possible in daily living--as I wrote recently:

 

Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice. I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern. Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.

 

p.s.--Ben Lo was a senior student of Cheng Man-Ch'ing's.  There's a forward on the translation he did with Martin Inn, by Cheng's widow--she says she asked Ben Lo many times to do the translation.  There's also a translation by Douglas Wile, and I find the two translations accord very closely.

 

Are you aware of just how many times, and how many people have screwed these things up?

 

The amount of people that think Jing = Sperm is crazy. Not at all

 

So the best you are getting here from those texts  in my opinion is reference to some things that are partially true, and many misunderstangs, via which the end result is always confusion (100% of the time) 

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice. I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern. Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.

 

The goal of Buddhist practice is the relief of "struggle" with life, classically translated by white Christian Westerners as "suffering". Buddhism is the pursuit,  initially, of a reduction in suffering through practice AND relationship with a teacher who "gets it", then eventually a complete shift in the understanding of how the world is that ends the "I" that suffers. 

 

Something that I am not sure I have said thoroughly enough is that when the "self" drops out (which is an entirely possible event) THAT is when your "automatic movement of the body" in ALL forms happens, amongst myriad other things. It is a byproduct of the larger insight and just isn't going to happen without it because it is the perspective shift that creates understanding of "no-self" that makes the realization of how this ALREADY IS happen. 

 

A contemporary teacher, Daniel Ingram (who very obviously (to me) knows what he is talking about in this respect) gives this very simplified accounting of how the completed "no-self" path is:

 

Quote

 

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

 

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

 

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

 

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

 

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. 

 

These teachings of agencylessness are all over teachings of enlightenment in many traditions (particularly 20th Century Advaita (or new-Advaita):

 

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"Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof." - Ramesh Balsekar

 

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"Realization is of the fact that you are not a person... Personal entity and enlightenment cannot go together." - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

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Please, honored followers of Zen. Long accustomed to groping for the elephant, do not be suspicious of the true dragon. Devote your energies to a way that directly indicates the absolute. Revere the person of complete attainment who is beyond all human agency. Gain accord with the enlightenment of the buddhas; succeed to the legitimate lineage of the ancestors' samadhi. - Fukanzazengi, Dogen

 

This IS realizing "no-self" (or "Self"). "No-self", and agencylessness, are eventually permanent shifts. 

[old3bob]

Self realized masters say that the Self realizes the Self by the Self...lets add eternal and changeless  in there for kicks. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Thats more a reference to a  rather pointless side effect, that what the actual purpose of the YJJ and XSJ  are

 

 

Isn't the illustration you offered about the accumulation of ch'i in the bones, to make them stronger?

 

Quote

 

 

The image above details the process. You build qi until it reaches a point that it presses its way into the bones. 

 

The stages of the Yijinjing are

 

• Skin Depth
• Sinew Depth
• Channel Depth
• Viscera Depth
• Marrow Depth
  
   

Is there some other point to leading the ch'i to the marrow, other than "bones of steel"?

You mentioned "by the way, I've a  psychophysical/neuroscientific background."  

I myself accept that the science around left-brain/right-brain is at least partially correct.  That would say that the left hemisphere does the linear thinking, while the right hemisphere is more wholistic in perception.  

I have had to accept that I can only progress in my practice step by step, first one side and then the other, so to speak.

That's really what Dao Bums is about, no?  Folks bring their left hemisphere to the table, cradled in the right, in the hopes of taking a step with regard to their understanding.

Of course, some think that what they write here is for someone else.  That's interesting!  



 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

so if someone has "bones of steel" after using certain methods what could they then be able to do because of it - should answer that question...

Edited July 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

53 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The goal of Buddhist practice is the relief of "struggle" with life, classically translated by white Christian Westerners as "suffering". Buddhism is the pursuit,  initially, of a reduction in suffering through practice AND relationship with a teacher who "gets it", then eventually a complete shift in the understanding of how the world is that ends the "I" that suffers. 

 

 

As his death approached, Gautama spoke of reliance on oneself, and stated that the four arisings of mindfulness were the way to be "a lamp onto oneself"--knowing the attachment his disciples had to him, Gautama de-emphasized the importance of a teacher.

 

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?
 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.
 

(Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108)

 

Regarding the cessation of "this entire mass of ill" ("in short, the five groups"):
 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.

 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.

 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.

 

 

That's where the zazen that gets up and walks around comes in--"if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something", and yet the body gets up and walks around, you can be sure consciousness is not stationed. 

The automatic activity in the movement of breath I'm talking about is the same automatic activity that gets up and walks around, but now the activity is the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation.  What's important to me is finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things.  
 

 

53 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

A contemporary teacher, Daniel Ingram (who very obviously (to me) knows what he is talking about in this respect) gives this very simplified accounting of how the completed "no-self" path is:
 

 

 

The quote from Ingram certainly sounds like "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", and that was the attainment that gave rise to Gautama's insight into the causal chain of suffering. 

Ingram doesn't speak to the cessation of "action", and the consequent "contact of freedom" in daily living, and that's the part I'm keen on.

Unclear to me is how he integrates the cessation he experienced, and more correctly his understanding of that experience since he apparently hasn't had the experience for nine years, into his daily living.  Gautama saw "the cessation of feeling and perceiving" as a temporary state, but he did speak of the difference it made in practice, in that the eight-fold way became ten-fold. 

Gautama could return to "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", although in many lectures he spoke only of "the five limbs of concentration".  The five limbs were the first four concentrations (ending with "the cessation of ['determinate thought' in] inhalation and exhalation") and the sign of the concentration.

The five limbs, and a way of life that allows for the usefulness of the fifth limb in the natural course of things.

 

53 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Please, honored followers of Zen. Long accustomed to groping for the elephant, do not be suspicious of the true dragon. Devote your energies to a way that directly indicates the absolute. Revere the person of complete attainment who is beyond all human agency. Gain accord with the enlightenment of the buddhas; succeed to the legitimate lineage of the ancestors' samadhi. - Fukanzazengi, Dogen
 

 

 

I like Bielefeldt's translation better:

 

Eminent students [of the dharma], long accustomed to groping for the elephant, pray do not doubt the true dragon.  Apply yourselves to the way that points directly at reality; honor the man who is through with learning and free from action.  Accord with the bodhi of all the Buddhas; succeed to the samadhi of all the Patriarchs.  If you act this way for a long time, you will be this way.  Your treasure store will open of itself, and you will use it as you will.

("Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, UC Press 1988, p 187)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

so if someone has "bones of steel" after using certain methods what could they then be able to do because of it - should answer that question...

 

 

Shore up a bridge, somewhere!

[Cobie]

13 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Shore up a bridge, somewhere!

Superman. 

[old3bob]

"Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?"

 

"and how",

how about TTC Chapter 21:

"IT lies in the nature of Grand Virtue
To follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao?
It is Something elusive and evasive.
Evasive and elusive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Form.
Elusive and evasive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Substance.
Shadowy and dim!
And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.
The Core of Vitality is very real,
It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity.
Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved
In order to recall the Beginning of all things".
How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?
By what is within me."

[stirling]

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The quote from Ingram certainly sounds like "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", and that was the attainment that gave rise to Gautama's insight into the causal chain of suffering.

 

Yes. It is insight into "no-self". One way in amongst countless ways. 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Ingram doesn't speak to the cessation of "action", and the consequent "contact of freedom" in daily living, and that's the part I'm keen on.

 

You could email and ask him. He does address both what it is and how it is now and always in points 2 and 3. 

 

Quote

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

 

It is a permanent insight.

 

Quote

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

 

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Unclear to me is how he integrates the cessation he experienced, and more correctly his understanding of that experience since he apparently hasn't had the experience for nine years, into his daily living.  Gautama saw "the cessation of feeling and perceiving" as a temporary state, but he did speak of the difference it made in practice, in that the eight-fold way became ten-fold. 

 

It doesn't integrate. Self is gone forever. Nothing to integrate. He is saying that the "understanding" has been stable for 9 years (this is years ago now...).

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama could return to "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", although in many lectures he spoke only of "the five limbs of concentration".  The five limbs were the first four concentrations (ending with "the cessation of ['determinate thought' in] inhalation and exhalation") and the sign of the concentration.

 

Sure! It is just an aspect one can incline the mind toward.

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Eminent students [of the dharma], long accustomed to groping for the elephant, pray do not doubt the true dragon.  Apply yourselves to the way that points directly at reality; honor the man who is through with learning and free from action.  Accord with the bodhi of all the Buddhas; succeed to the samadhi of all the Patriarchs.  If you act this way for a long time, you will be this way.  Your treasure store will open of itself, and you will use it as you will.

("Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, UC Press 1988, p 187)

 

Same difference. Not meaningfully different, though I don't particularly care for this version. My bold above- this means someone who has dropped "self" either way. 

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

You could email and ask him. He does address both what it is and how it is now and always in points 2 and 3. 
 

Quote

2) ... meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all.  Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.
 

 

There's also the action that claims the forefront of attention, taking place without any intent.  Different experience, I think.

Not an everyday thing, and I can relate to what he means when he says his insight is not always at the forefront of his attention. 

Gautama returned to concentration after he spoke, that's something I aspire to, although the concentration I expect includes thought applied and sustained most of the time.  Also included--"one-pointedness" and the regular experience of the cessation of volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation.  

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It doesn't integrate. Self is gone forever. Nothing to integrate. He is saying that the "understanding" has been stable for 9 years (this is years ago now...).

 

 

I can understand Shunryu Suzuki's "how you should use your mind is quite clear", but "self is gone forever"--are you really aiming for that, claiming that?  

I think Shunryu's kids say that his self was not gone forever, when he was raising them.  Kids can be trying!

Checking online, I see there's a video with the description, "Interview with Dr. Daniel Ingram on his experience achieving the fourth and final stage of enlightenment - Arahantship".  Why does that strike me as odd, that there should be a video of a doc talking about achieving the "fourth and final stage of enlightenment, arahantship"?--kind of jarring to me.  I think there's a rule in the Vinaya about monks not claiming arahantship, but of course Daniel's no monk.
 

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Quote

Eminent students [of the dharma], long accustomed to groping for the elephant, pray do not doubt the true dragon.  Apply yourselves to the way that points directly at reality; honor the man who is through with learning and free from action.  Accord with the bodhi of all the Buddhas; succeed to the samadhi of all the Patriarchs.  If you act this way for a long time, you will be this way.  Your treasure store will open of itself, and you will use it as you will.

("Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, UC Press 1988, p 187)
 

Same difference. Not meaningfully different, though I don't particularly care for this version. My bold above- this means someone who has dropped "self" either way. 

 

"either way"--I think for Dogen, "through with learning and free from action" is just the one way.  Dropping mind and body, according to Dogen, "is the start of our effort", I think that's what I quoted earlier.

Your quote of "Fukan zazen gi" dropped the last two sentences, above.  There's Dogen, thinking he's teaching somebody else (again), but he did rewrite "Fukan zazen gi" a number of times so I guess he knew.

 

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

There's also the action that claims the forefront of attention, taking place without any intent.  Different experience, I think.

 

What he means here is that the fact that he isn't the "doer" is not always at the forefront of attention. You might think that intention arises as part of what you imagine is "your" thought process or desire, but that is a delusion. Thoughts don't belong to "you"

 

When the conceit of "self" is seen through, intention  for "doing" something would still arise, BUT with the critical difference that it is obvious that intention arises of its own accord and not from your thinking process, or your volition. It appears in the objectless/personless stream of arising and passing away like all other phenomena. 

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama returned to concentration after he spoke, that's something I aspire to, although the concentration I expect includes thought applied and sustained most of the time.  Also included--"one-pointedness" and the regular experience of the cessation of volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation.

 

The Dzogchen path is establishing awareness over and over again when it is noticed that it has been dropped. This was my practice for over 20 years.

 

I would be willing to bet that Syd's mind was always aligned and present in empty awareness, even when speaking. Speaking, like all other activities is entirely non-volitional in an Arhat (or further out).  This is part of completely seeing through the "self".

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I can understand Shunryu Suzuki's "how you should use your mind is quite clear", but "self is gone forever"--are you really aiming for that, claiming that?

 

What does "self" mean to you? What would understanding "no-self" mean, in practical terms?

 

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We assume that each of us is a self, that there is an entity called “me.” The self is just another misunderstanding, however. We generally manufacture a notion of self, which feels like a solid entity. We are conditioned to view this notion as consistent and real... But Siddhartha realized that there is no independent entity that qualifies as the self to be found anywhere, either inside or outside the body. Like the optical illusion of a fire ring, the self is illusory. It is a fallacy, fundamentally flawed and ultimately non-existent. The self is assembled, doesn’t exist independently, and is susceptible to change... At the moment that Siddhartha found no self, he also found no inherently existing evil—only ignorance. Specifically, he contemplated the ignorance of creating a label of “self,” pasting it on a totally baseless assembled phenomenon, imputing its importance, and agonizing to protect it... Probably the biggest discovery in human history was Siddhartha’s realization that the self does not exist independently, that it is a mere label, and therefore that clinging to it is ignorance. - Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

 

 

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"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

Suzuki is telling us here that enlightenment is the end of personhood... of "self". The enlightened "activity" is the flow of the arising and passing of the dharmakaya in this moment. Enlightenment is when there is no karma being produced by an appearance (like you, or me) and there is alignment with that arising and passing "activity" so that the being we also are at a relative level is no longer in resistance to what is happening by grasping or aversion.

 

As far as aims, no-self, specifically, has never been my aim... I have always been interested in taking apart "reality" and understanding what it was at its deepest layer. 

 

As far as claims, I have been given endorsement to teach by both of my teachers in the Soto Zen tradition based on my understanding and insight on the topics of dharma and enlightenment. 

 

The Buddha believed in pursuing Anatta. One place to look is the Anattalakkhana Sutta.

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I think Shunryu's kids say that his self was not gone forever, when he was raising them.  Kids can be trying!

 

 His kid's wouldn't notice or understand, most likely. You have to have insight to recognize "enlightened activity". Suzuki's behavior would probably appear the same in most respects. He would probably still be angered, or sad, etc., just without the "mind" taking hold of these as they pass through. Even the Buddha (and Jesus) got angry. 

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Checking online, I see there's a video with the description, "Interview with Dr. Daniel Ingram on his experience achieving the fourth and final stage of enlightenment - Arahantship".  Why does that strike me as odd, that there should be a video of a doc talking about achieving the "fourth and final stage of enlightenment, arahantship"?--kind of jarring to me.  I think there's a rule in the Vinaya about monks not claiming arahantship, but of course Daniel's no monk.

 

I leave it to you to evaluate what he has to say. Daniel is interviewed in MANY places. He has deep knowledge of Theravada meditation practices, and even has his own book that is candid in all respects about his experience.

 

The Buddha spoke openly about his understanding. Most historical religious figures did. It has become taboo over time, but I appreciate Daniel's candor, and, while his path is much more Theravada than mine and has different hallmarks, his experience of insight strikes me a correct and relatable. It has the value, in my opinion, of also showing that this is actually possible in this life - not some pipe dream, or the product of thousands of lifetimes.

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"either way"--I think for Dogen, "through with learning and free from action" is just the one way.  Dropping mind and body, according to Dogen, "is the start of our effort", I think that's what I quoted earlier.

 

Dropping mind and body permanently isn't something we start with. If you drop mind and body it won't be a wiggly did I/didn't I sort of thing. You will know for certain what has happened, and your life will never be the same. If you DO have that moment, it will be the start of insight, but then it must be stabilized. . 1st stage, or Stream Enterer here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_awakening

 

Complete dropping away of self is 4th stage (see link above), or Arahant. This is now a stable experience of "no-self". Even after this, the insight itself continues to deepen... forever? 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

What he means here is that the fact that he isn't the "doer" is not always at the forefront of attention. You might think that intention arises as part of what you imagine is "your" thought process or desire, but that is a delusion. Thoughts don't belong to "you"

 

 

 

How odd, that Gautama would have to appeal to his followers to cultivate "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", the way he himself did:

 

... this intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.  Moreover it allays evil, unprofitable states that have arisen, and makes them vanish in a moment.
 

Just as... in the last month of the hot season the dust and dirt fly up, and then out of due season a great rain cloud lays them and makes them vanish in a moment,--even so intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.  Moreover it allays evil, unprofitable states that have arisen, and makes them vanish in a moment.

(SN V "The Great Chapter", Book X, Chapter I, 310; Pali Text Society SN V p 275; the full "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", here)

 

He tells folks that such was his way of living as the Bodhisattva (ibid p 280), and that such is the Tathagatha's way of living (ibid p 289).  He's laying it on thick.  He can't really tell them why the concentration is his way of living, so he's heaping on the praise.

 

In Anapanasati, he says that the same concentration (now translated "the [mind-]development that is mindfulness on inbreathing and outbreathing"), if developed and made much of, leads to the fulfillment of the four applications of mindfulness, which if developed and made much of, brings to fulfilment the seven links in awakening, which if developed and made much of brings to fulfillment freedom through knowledge.

So, just develop and make much of the concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, and the rest will follow.  

Gautama described "the power of concentration" as: 

 

making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein... (continues with the second, third, and fourth trances).  This... is called "the controlling power of concentration".
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174, emphasis added)

Without "one-pointedness", thought may be applied and sustained but there's no concentration.

Just for Daniel and stirling, Gautama said:
 

Moreover, ... for those ... who are Arahants, in whom the asavas (the cankers of sense pleasures, becoming, and ignorance) are destroyed, who have lived the life, done the task, lifted the burden, won their highest good, worn out the fetters of becoming, who by perfect knowledge have become free,--for such also the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, conduces both to pleasant living and to mindful composure even in this very life.

 

(ibid  p 290, parenthetical added)

 

 

Quote

 

I would be willing to bet that Syd's mind was always aligned and present in empty awareness, even when speaking. Speaking, like all other activities is entirely non-volitional in an Arhat (or further out).  This is part of completely seeing through the "self".

 

 

 

Whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks.  Or repeat myself:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.
 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased.

 

 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

 

Why would he say that the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech requires the first concentration,  if speaking was non-volitional in an Arahant?

 

Quote

 

What does "self" mean to you? What would understanding "no-self" mean, in practical terms?

 

 

 

"Self", taking myself too seriously.

"No-self", life is too important to take seriously.

 

I see you answered the questions, for yourself:

 

 

Quote

 

Suzuki is telling us here that enlightenment is the end of personhood... of "self". The enlightened "activity" is the flow of the arising and passing of the dharmakaya in this moment. Enlightenment is when there is no karma being produced by an appearance (like you, or me) and there is alignment with that arising and passing "activity" so that the being we also are at a relative level is no longer in resistance to what is happening by grasping or aversion.

 

As far as aims, no-self, specifically, has never been my aim... I have always been interested in taking apart "reality" and understanding what it was at its deepest layer. 

 

 

 

The full quote, from Suzuki:
 

So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.
 

(“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)

 

 

Like Gautama, he's linking "concentrated in your breathing" with freedom, and like Gautama allowing for the use of the mind in a particular way.

Karma to me is the result of "determinate thought" in action of speech, body, and mind--intentional action, and the result is ultimately a grasping after self in the five groups.  How to cease to act out of intention, yet act, in this world--that is the question Gautama addressed.

 

 

Quote

 

As far as claims, I have been given endorsement to teach by both of my teachers in the Soto Zen tradition based on my understanding and insight on the topics of dharma and enlightenment. 

 

 

Congratulations!  I knew from previous threads you had been authorized to teach, but by two teachers--well, alright then!

You're sure it was based on understanding and insight...  just kidding you, stirling.  My hat is off.

 

 

Quote

 

I leave it to you to evaluate what he has to say. Daniel is interviewed in MANY places. He has deep knowledge of Theravada meditation practices, and even has his own book that is candid in all respects about his experience.

 

 

I think I've checked his stuff before, but I'll take a look.  As you can tell, I derail from other people's tracks altogether quickly, if I sense the tracks are going somewhere I can't use.  A reflex developed in the information age, as I scramble to find what I can use while I can still use it.  Sometimes too quick of a reflex, admittedly.  

 

 

Quote

 

The Buddha spoke openly about his understanding. Most historical religious figures did. It has become taboo over time, but I appreciate Daniel's candor, and, while his path is much more Theravada than mine and has different hallmarks, his experience of insight strikes me a correct and relatable. It has the value, in my opinion, of also showing that this is actually possible in this life - not some pipe dream, or the product of thousands of lifetimes.

 

 

I am content to follow Gautama's advice, and I have the gist of his "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", enough to see its utility--"how I can use my mind", to paraphrase Suzuki. 

I'm not worried about arahantship.

 

 

Quote

 

Dropping mind and body permanently isn't something we start with. If you drop mind and body it won't be a wiggly did I/didn't I sort of thing. You will know for certain what has happened, and your life will never be the same. If you DO have that moment, it will be the start of insight, but then it must be stabilized. . 1st stage, or Stream Enterer here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_awakening

 

Complete dropping away of self is 4th stage (see link above), or Arahant. This is now a stable experience of "no-self". Even after this, the insight itself continues to deepen... forever? 

 

 

 

Body and mind dropped off is the beginning of our effort.
 

(Eihei Dogen, “Dogen’s Extensive Record, Eihei Koroku, #501, tr Leighton and Okumura p 448)

 

 

That translation is approved by Sotoshu, for what that's worth.  

I personally don't believe there's such a thing as "dropping body and mind" permanently, until the mortal coil itself is shuffled off.  As I said before, to me Dogen is simply saying, "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays  hold of one-pointedness of mind."


 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

"We assume that each of us is a self, that there is an entity called “me.” The self is just another misunderstanding, however. We generally manufacture a notion of self, which feels like a solid entity. We are conditioned to view this notion as consistent and real... But Siddhartha realized that there is no independent entity that qualifies as the self to be found anywhere, either inside or outside the body. Like the optical illusion of a fire ring, the self is illusory. It is a fallacy, fundamentally flawed and ultimately non-existent. The self is assembled, doesn’t exist independently, and is susceptible to change... At the moment that Siddhartha found no self, he also found no inherently existing evil—only ignorance. Specifically, he contemplated the ignorance of creating a label of “self,” pasting it on a totally baseless assembled phenomenon, imputing its importance, and agonizing to protect it... Probably the biggest discovery in human history was Siddhartha’s realization that the self does not exist independently, that it is a mere label, and therefore that clinging to it is ignorance. - Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche"

 

Such sayings are misleading at best, when the Self has not revealed it-Self.  

[Lairg]

Humans tend to take a bottom-up view of their existence - as if they were the center of Existence/Creation, as taught in some religions. 

 

A top-down view may be better:  a Cosmic Spirit has put down a myriad of lines of light into various universes and species to carry out its Intent.

 

A standard human is the tentative anchor of one of those threads.

 

Fortunately there is much redundancy in the anchorings.

 

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

"We assume that each of us is a self, that there is an entity called “me.” The self is just another misunderstanding, however. We generally manufacture a notion of self, which feels like a solid entity. We are conditioned to view this notion as consistent and real... But Siddhartha realized that there is no independent entity that qualifies as the self to be found anywhere, either inside or outside the body. Like the optical illusion of a fire ring, the self is illusory. It is a fallacy, fundamentally flawed and ultimately non-existent. The self is assembled, doesn’t exist independently, and is susceptible to change... At the moment that Siddhartha found no self, he also found no inherently existing evil—only ignorance. Specifically, he contemplated the ignorance of creating a label of “self,” pasting it on a totally baseless assembled phenomenon, imputing its importance, and agonizing to protect it... Probably the biggest discovery in human history was Siddhartha’s realization that the self does not exist independently, that it is a mere label, and therefore that clinging to it is ignorance. - Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche"

 

Such sayings are misleading at best, when the Self has not revealed it-Self.  
 

 

 

na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na---Atman!

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

How odd, that Gautama would have to appeal to his followers to cultivate "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", the way he himself did:

 

Mark, there are MANY ways in. You may choose one above the others but it doesn't invalidate the rest. Practices do not ultimately enlighten anyone. 

 

There are many Buddhas that have taught MANY different dharma doors. I'm sure most of them wouldn't resonate with you at all. That doesn't delegitimize the rest.

 

Quote

Just for Daniel and stirling, Gautama said:
 

Moreover, ... for those ... who are Arahants, in whom the asavas (the cankers of sense pleasures, becoming, and ignorance) are destroyed, who have lived the life, done the task, lifted the burden, won their highest good, worn out the fetters of becoming, who by perfect knowledge have become free,--for such also the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, conduces both to pleasant living and to mindful composure even in this very life.

 

(ibid  p 290)

 

Just taking in the field of existence with no particular focus seems to do that same thing. 

 

Quote

Whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks.  Or repeat myself:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.
 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased.

 

 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

Why would he say that the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech requires the first concentration,  if speaking was non-volitional in an Arahant?

 

I have read them a few times before, perhaps.  Why this particular point in the whole canon of the Tripitaka I often wonder. Life is mysterious!

 

My take is that the buddha is saying that thought creates the delusion of "self" and drives action. In first jhana speech ceases. 

 

 

Without any context, I would guess that the second quote is specifically about jhana practice and has nothing to do with Arahants or "attainments". 

 

It isn't that speaking is non-volitional, it is that there is no self that owns volition.

 

Quote

"Self", taking myself too seriously.

"No-self", life is too important to take seriously.

 

I see you answered the questions, for yourself:

 

What does "self" mean to you? What would understanding "no-self" mean, in practical terms? No cheating. 

 

Quote

The full quote, from Suzuki:
 

So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.
 

(“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)

 

It isn't though. This is not at all the same thing.

 

I looked a bit,  I couldn't find a source for the quote, but it is correct with or without Suzuki being involved. 

 

Quote

Karma to me is the result of "determinate thought" in action of speech, body, and mind--intentional action, and the result is ultimately a grasping after self in the five groups.  How to cease to act out of intention, yet act, in this world--that is the question Gautama addressed.

 

I agree. Then end of determinate thought come with insight into Anatta, or better, Sunyata. The answer is "without a self".

 

Quote

I think I've checked his stuff before, but I'll take a look.  As you can tell, I derail from other people's tracks altogether quickly, if I sense the tracks are going somewhere I can't use.  A reflex developed in the information age, as I scramble to find what I can use while I can still use it.  Sometimes too quick of a reflex, admittedly.

 

You have definitely gathered up your bits and pieces. I have to tell you, in thinking I would look for the full context of your interests I was surprised to find that half or more of the links I came across were indeed your writings here or on your site. 

 

Quote

I am content to follow Gautama's advice, and I have the gist of his "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", enough to see its utility--"how I can use my mind", to paraphrase Suzuki.

 

Sure. You do you!

 

Quote

I'm not worried about arahantship.

 

A good attitude to have. You may make prefect yet.

 

Quote

I personally don't believe there's such a thing as "dropping body and mind" permanently, until the mortal coil itself is shuffled off.  As I said before, to me Dogen is simply saying, "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays  hold of one-pointedness of mind."

 

What does "dropping body and mind" mean to you? Did the Buddha have to be dead to have body and mind drop off?

Edited July 20, 2023 by stirling

[Mark Foote]

4 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

I looked a bit,  I couldn't find a source for the quote, but it is correct with our without Suzuki being involved. 

 

 

 

Breathing Shunryu Suzuki Transcript   Thursday Morning Lectures November 4, 1965 Los Altos

 

http://shunryusuzuki2.com/Detail1?ID=77

 

I'll be back to you on the rest, later.

An apparent take-down of Daniel, which I haven't finished reading, here.  Daniel's response, which I haven't had time to listen to, here.

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Breathing Shunryu Suzuki Transcript   Thursday Morning Lectures November 4, 1965 Los Altos

 

http://shunryusuzuki2.com/Detail1?ID=77

 

It is not the same topic. Unfortunately the quote doesn't feature in that article.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

An apparent take-down of Daniel, which I haven't finished reading, here.  Daniel's response, which I haven't had time to listen to, here.

 

Oh yes, I've read that. He is challenging a number of ideas in the Theravadan orthodoxy, AND he presumes to wear his "attainment" on his sleeve. Heresy!

 

Mark, do you practice, or have you had instruction in, Shikantaza?

[Mark Foote]

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Mark, there are MANY ways in. You may choose one above the others but it doesn't invalidate the rest. Practices do not ultimately enlighten anyone. 

 

There are many Buddhas that have taught MANY different dharma doors. I'm sure most of them wouldn't resonate with you at all. That doesn't delegitimize the rest.

 

 

 

"He can't really tell them why the concentration is his way of living, so he's heaping on the praise."

Maybe I can say, though.  How presumptious of me, I know.  One-pointedness of mind is the placement of awareness as a function of breath.  We sit, and sooner or later we catch a glimpse.  We lay hold.  We get on board, and take up the flute!

Is there another way in?

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

"... if cultivated and made much of, conduces both to pleasant living and to mindful composure even in this very life."
 

Just taking in the field of existence with no particular focus seems to do that same thing. 
 

 

 

You're a lucky guy, I guess.

 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

I have read them a few times before, perhaps.  Why this particular point in the whole canon of the Tripitaka I often wonder. Life is mysterious!

 

My take is that the buddha is saying that thought creates the delusion of "self" and drives action. In first jhana speech ceases. 
 

 

 

More directly, we think, and then we speak, for the most part.  The point of those quotes, which so far as I know only appear in those particular places in the first four Nikayas, is that when Gautama speaks of action, and the cessation of action, he is speaking of volitive action, and the cessation of volitive action.  

Without those particular bits of the teaching, what sense can be made of "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing", or "the cessation of feeling and perceiving"?
 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

Without any context, I would guess that the second quote is specifically about jhana practice and has nothing to do with Arahants or "attainments". 

 

It isn't that speaking is non-volitional, it is that there is no self that owns volition.
 

 

 

The second quote is very much about attainment, though not the stream-winner kind of attainment:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.

 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

What does "self" mean to you? What would understanding "no-self" mean, in practical terms? No cheating. 

 

 

I know this is important to you.  I'm drawing a blank.  Why can't I cheat!

You know, for me it's all about action, volitive versus free.  Does practice occur, actualizing the fundamental point?  Is it the self that finds the place where I am, or is that the grace of just letting go?  Is it the self that finds my way at this moment, or just a sudden necessity to open to the universe beyond the boundaries of the senses?  

Is it the self that makes self-surrender the object of thought, that takes up "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" and the placement of attention by the movement of breath?  

Is it no-self, when the inconceivable is actualized immediately?  I kinda think so, I confess.  So a matter of action, not insight.
 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

Quote

Like Gautama, (Suzuki in "Breathing") is linking "concentrated in your breathing" with freedom, and like Gautama allowing for the use of the mind in a particular way.

Karma to me is the result of "determinate thought" in action of speech, body, and mind--intentional action, and the result is ultimately a grasping after self in the five groups.  How to cease to act out of intention, yet act, in this world--that is the question Gautama addressed.
 

 

It isn't though. This is not at all the same thing.
 

 

Can't tell exactly what you thought was not the same thing.

 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

You have definitely gathered up your bits and pieces. I have to tell you, in thinking I would look for the full context of your interests I was surprised to find that half or more of the links I came across were indeed your writings here or on your site.
 

 

I've noticed that the Pali Text Society translations are only available in zipped PDF's, here.  That's open license, so I'm allowed to post the link here!  Anyway, the fact that a google search won't bring up the Pali text translation means that a lot of my references aren't online--there are other translations, but those translators seem to have taken a hit and miss approach to the sermons.   Some are translated, many are not.  Can't blame them.

I myself have a set of the first four Nikayas on the bookshelf, from the Pali Text Society, that I purchased back in the '80's.  

I don't trust Visuddimaggha at all, I'm afraid.  The diss of Ingram is interesting, for the disparaging remarks concerning the practices that have been adopted by modern insight meditation in Southeast Asia, and passed off as historical.  I think it's the same with the Visuddhimaggha, written a thousand years after Gautama (the Ingram diss took a turn and lost me, though, when the author started into "dark night of meditation").

Chadwick always says my viewpoint is somewhat unique.  I wish someone had been able to make sense of the bits and pieces for me sooner, like around junior high.
 

 

36 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

What does "dropping body and mind" mean to you? Did the Buddha have to be dead to have body and mind drop off?
 

You're conflating dropping mind and body with enlightenment.  Dogen said it was the start of our effort, and I would say that's what allows the breath to place attention.

[Mark Foote]

23 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

It is not the same topic. Unfortunately the quote doesn't feature in that article.
 

 

Last paragraph in the Suzuki lecture titled "Breathing", which I linked above:
 

Always moment after moment we are the center of myriads of worlds. So we are quite dependent and independent. So, if you understand, or if you experience this kind of experience, you have absolute independence. You will not be bothered by anyone. So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.
 

 

23 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

Oh yes, I've read that. He is challenging a number of ideas in the Theravadan orthodoxy, AND he presumes to wear his "attainment" on his sleeve. Heresy!

 

 

The first part of the diss makes out that Ingram is amplifying a number of heresies contained in modern Theravadan schools, particularly in teachings from Myanmar, if I understand correctly.  

They chant about metta at the Theravadan monastery over the hillls from me, in Redwood Valley.  More of a song, actually.  I think that practice is about 200 years old, but they let everyone believe it was from the Buddha's time.  Yes, it's a hit, and they depend on donations!

 

 

23 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Mark, do you practice, or have you had instruction in, Shikantaza?
 

Stirling, don't make me repeat Harada Roshi's admonition to Jiryu.  I know you think it's a wide-open awareness, like Jiryu, but I come down on the side of Harada.  Except that I would say:

“One-pointedness” can shift, as every particle of the body (with no part left out) comes into the placement of attention.  At the moment when “one-pointedness” can shift as though in open space, volition and habit in the activity of inhalation and exhalation ceases. 

[stirling]

15 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

"He can't really tell them why the concentration is his way of living, so he's heaping on the praise."

 

?

 

Quote

Maybe I can say, though.  How presumptious of me, I know.  One-pointedness of mind is the placement of awareness as a function of breath.  We sit, and sooner or later we catch a glimpse.  We lay hold.  We get on board, and take up the flute!

 

So, "just sitting" really refers to Shikantaza. Zazen is a preliminary practice, often (not always) watching the breath. Often when a student starts noticing that they lose contact with the breath and the mind goes quiet (the muddy jar goes clear) they are moved to Shikantaza practice. What is Shikantaza practice? It is being with all things, objectless meditation, taking in the whole field of the dharmakaya. See below. I actually even found a spot where Suzuki answers your particular question about thinking and the "first stage"!

 

Quote

 

I want to explain, you know, what is shikantaza. Shikantaza is, as you know-- excuse me-- just to sit, you know. We say “shikantaza.” Just to sit. But there is-- if you, you know, it is not proper or it is not enough to say “just to sit.” For an instance, you know, everything is just there, you know. Things are just where they are. But that is not enough. If we say just things are just where they are, the relationship between things is ignored. When we think about the relationship between things, we will reach the idea of one whole being, you know. 

 

We say “things,” but actually things are already some divided materialistic and idealistic being. So before we have-- when we have idea of things, you know, we actually have the idea of one whole being. And one whole being exist in the state of divided being. That is actually how things exist. 

 

And things are incessantly, you know, changing. So, you know, time span-- things is not just things as they are. It is changing as a one whole being. This point is-- should be understood when we practice zazen. So Dogen Zenji says, “If your practice does not include everything, that is not right practice.” That is why we, you know, bow to Buddha and why we, you know, call our practice-- practice of Buddha's-- Buddha's practice, not your practice. 

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

-

 

So Dogen Zenji's Fukanzazengi, you know, it-- he says, “Originally we are enlightened. Why is it necessary to sit?” [Laughs.] There is not necessary to sit. Even though we don't sit, we are practicing zazen originally. But he says, “If there is slightest”-- and this is not literal interpretation, but translation-- but “if there is slightest idea of self,” you know, “the true practice,” you know, “will change into,” you know, “quite different practice.”

 

-

 

And Buddha suppose to talk about dharma in his, you know, first stage, where he has still, you know, thinking mind-- pure thinking mind. Pure thinking mind is, you know, without idea of self, you know. Mind moves, you know, like a wave-- like waves, one after another. But there is no idea of self at that stage. In that stage, you know, we have pure thinking.

 

Why we say “pure thinking” is because there is no idea of self. That is to say, the images you have in practice, you know, in zazen, various image will, you know, come up from the subconsciousness, you know [laughs, laughter]. That is how, you know, you have images in your mind in zazen. But if images is just images and no idea of self is involved in it. “Oh! I have terrible images [laughing, laughter]. I must get rid of it!” That is already, you know, idea of self.

 

- Shuryu Suzuki

 

 

https://suzukiroshi.engagewisdom.com/talks/background-shikantaza

 

Quote

You're a lucky guy, I guess.

 

It's just a practice, Mark. Try it!

 

Quote

The second quote is very much about attainment, though not the stream-winner kind of attainment:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.

 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

See Suzuki above. Pure thinking mind is empty of self. 

 

Quote

I know this is important to you.  I'm drawing a blank.  Why can't I cheat!

 

It isn't important to ME, silly, it is important for you. If you have no curiosity or grasp of Anatta (intellectual or experiential) then you aren't really practicing Buddhism, in my opinion. You can get a taste of it in your "first trance". 

 

 

Quote

You know, for me it's all about action, volitive versus free.  Does practice occur, actualizing the fundamental point?  Is it the self that finds the place where I am, or is that the grace of just letting go?  Is it the self that finds my way at this moment, or just a sudden necessity to open to the universe beyond the boundaries of the senses?  

 

Even if you think it is, the "self" isn't doing jack shit.  You are literally making it up moment to moment. It is a mirage. But, WHAT are we saying is a mirage?

 

Quote

Is it the self that makes self-surrender the object of thought, that takes up "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" and the placement of attention by the movement of breath?

 

It can't. Mirage.

 

Quote

Is it no-self, when the inconceivable is actualized immediately?  I kinda think so, I confess.  So a matter of action, not insight.

 

A matter of presence without "self".

 

Quote

Can't tell exactly what you thought was not the same thing.

 

My thought was that you were trying to say that the Suzuki quote about "enlightened activity" was from your link.

 

Quote

I've noticed that the Pali Text Society translations are only available in zipped PDF's, here.  That's open license, so I'm allowed to post the link here!  Anyway, the fact that a google search won't bring up the Pali text translation means that a lot of my references aren't online--there are other translations, but those translators seem to have taken a hit and miss approach to the sermons.   Some are translated, many are not.  Can't blame them.

 

Thanks!

 

Quote

I don't trust Visuddimaggha at all, I'm afraid.  The diss of Ingram is interesting, for the disparaging remarks concerning the practices that have been adopted by modern insight meditation in Southeast Asia, and passed off as historical.  I think it's the same with the Visuddhimaggha, written a thousand years after Gautama (the Ingram diss took a turn and lost me, though, when the author started into "dark night of meditation").

 

I don't trust any of it as being "THE" buddha, but it isn't necessary to retread that discussion.  I also don't think it matters. The body of dharma is huge and full of great stuff. 

 

Quote

You're conflating dropping mind and body with enlightenment.  Dogen said it was the start of our effort, and I would say that's what allows the breath to place attention.

 

Yes, you can have experiences of dropping body and mind (actualizing), butTRULY dropping body and mind, in Zen, refers to insight into no-self. Honest. This is why there is so much talk about actualizing. You CAN, but it isn't permanent understanding or insight. Still, substantially better than carrying thinking mind and "self" around all day.

[stirling]

39 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Last paragraph in the Suzuki lecture titled "Breathing", which I linked above:
 

Always moment after moment we are the center of myriads of worlds. So we are quite dependent and independent. So, if you understand, or if you experience this kind of experience, you have absolute independence. You will not be bothered by anyone. So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.

 

Zazen vs. Shikatantaza. Covered it. 

 

39 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

The first part of the diss makes out that Ingram is amplifying a number of heresies contained in modern Theravadan schools, particularly in teachings from Myanmar, if I understand correctly. 

A male teacher of mine used to say, "Arguments about practices can be done with one hand". 

 

39 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Stirling, don't make me repeat Harada Roshi's admonition to Jiryu.  I know you think it's a wide-open awareness, like Jiryu, but I come down on the side of Harada.  Except that I would say:

“One-pointedness” can shift, as every particle of the body (with no part left out) comes into the placement of attention.  At the moment when “one-pointedness” can shift as though in open space, volition and habit in the activity of inhalation and exhalation ceases. 

 

Jiryu is Soto. Harada is Rinzai. Soto is emptiness, Rinzai is koans. Different schools with very different practices. The Rinzai don't do Shikantaza. BTW (I taught my friend, a senior Rinzai teacher and student of Sazaki) Shikantaza last week! 

 

In Shikantaza the "one point' is ALL points. 

[old3bob]

 

hopefully the Hindu Gentlemen in the video would forgive me for borrowing their impressive clip for something different ?  so if we pretend/interject for a moment  that they are arguing back and forth with their drums does it remind you of anyone we know?

 

 

well it reminds me of those who are good sports,  which may not be listed in the teachings per-se but is something not to be ignored.

Edited July 21, 2023 by old3bob