Frustration in searching for a style or lineage to learn

[Saan]

Hello!

I come to this forum after extensive research, and I believe this is the best place where I can find help.

 

Through the practice of Buddhist meditation known as "whole-body breathing" (in the style of Thanissaro or Rob Burbea), I discovered that Taoism has a very similar technique called "pore breathing." I found it extremely interesting and decided to learn more through online resources. However, I feel frustrated because it is not easy to find true information on this topic.

 

On one hand, it is difficult to discern which masters or lineages are authentic and which might be considered cults.

 

On the other hand, it seems that there is an almost infinite number of practices, which makes it immensely challenging to conduct a comprehensive search.

 

I am looking for a complete system itself that can complement my Buddhist meditation practice (or "pore breathing"). Could someone point me in the right direction in terms of masters, lineages, or styles that align with my interests? I have come across mentions of "pore breathing," but also of "bone breathing." Are these techniques similar? Is it necessary to learn all styles of breathing to make progress?

 

I appreciate any help you can provide in advance.

Thank you very much.

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, Saan said:

…  Taoism has a very similar technique called "pore breathing." …

 

Interesting, didn’t know that. 

[silent thunder]

Hey Saan, welcome to the Bums.

 

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche comes to mind, since you say you're already on a path in the Buddhist tradition.  He is part of a well established lineage and teaches openly online and in person, as well as having published a number of books, several of which I have found quite beneficial. 

 

He has students here as well who may be able to shed light on some aspects of the practices.

 

Best to you on your path.

[liminal_luke]

For bone breathing you might find this CD useful: The Bone Dreaming Meditation - CD | CNTI (chineitsang.com).  It's different from pore breathing in that the focus is the bones rather than the pores.  

 

I second silent thunder's recommendation of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.  He teaches online workshops regularly through glidewing.  His community has an online presence here: Ligmincha International | Ligmincha.  Great stuff although I'm not sure if there's anything similar to pore breathing.  

[Saan]

On 16/6/2023 at 8:32 PM, silent thunder said:

Hey Saan, welcome to the Bums.

 

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche comes to mind, since you say you're already on a path in the Buddhist tradition.  He is part of a well established lineage and teaches openly online and in person, as well as having published a number of books, several of which I have found quite beneficial. 

 

He has students here as well who may be able to shed light on some aspects of the practices.

 

Best to you on your path.

 

On 16/6/2023 at 8:46 PM, liminal_luke said:

For bone breathing you might find this CD useful: The Bone Dreaming Meditation - CD | CNTI (chineitsang.com).  It's different from pore breathing in that the focus is the bones rather than the pores.  

 

I second silent thunder's recommendation of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.  He teaches online workshops regularly through glidewing.  His community has an online presence here: Ligmincha International | Ligmincha.  Great stuff although I'm not sure if there's anything similar to pore breathing.  

 

Oh, that's true!!! I forgot about the Bön tradition. Additionally, they offer their knowledge online. Thank you.

[kakapo]

On 6/15/2023 at 3:35 PM, Saan said:

On one hand, it is difficult to discern which masters or lineages are authentic and which might be considered cults.

 

 

Simply ask the question which lineages or teachers can present good evidence  that is backed by scientists and medical doctors, and recorded on video.

 

If they are a public lineage, actively trying to recruit, and cannot or will not provide such evidence my assumption would be it is because they are unable to provide it, and their practice doesn't do much if anything at all.

 

Just my $0.02, your mileage may vary.

 

[Jox]

On 15. 6. 2023 at 9:35 PM, Saan said:

Hello!

I come to this forum after extensive research, and I believe this is the best place where I can find help.

 

Through the practice of Buddhist meditation known as "whole-body breathing" (in the style of Thanissaro or Rob Burbea), I discovered that Taoism has a very similar technique called "pore breathing." I found it extremely interesting and decided to learn more through online resources. However, I feel frustrated because it is not easy to find true information on this topic.

 

On one hand, it is difficult to discern which masters or lineages are authentic and which might be considered cults.

 

On the other hand, it seems that there is an almost infinite number of practices, which makes it immensely challenging to conduct a comprehensive search.

 

I am looking for a complete system itself that can complement my Buddhist meditation practice (or "pore breathing"). Could someone point me in the right direction in terms of masters, lineages, or styles that align with my interests? I have come across mentions of "pore breathing," but also of "bone breathing." Are these techniques similar? Is it necessary to learn all styles of breathing to make progress?

 

I appreciate any help you can provide in advance.

Thank you very much.

Baguazhang by Dragon gate sanctuary - sifu Cristopher Matsuo.

He teaches through dvd_s and in person in Hawai.

 

[Bruce Qi]

seeing as you mention pore breathing and pore breathing is a big part of wang lipings system try nathan brine , he has online courses and books .

[exorcist_1699]

Not trying to give any complete system .

 

Taoist system's  significance is its emphasize  on  Taiji and the use of  its split status :  Yuan-qi (  basic life energy) located at the bottom,  Yuan-jing ( intelligence )at the top, to describe  the alienated ( Xing and meng's  alienation) human situation .

 

The shift to  lung breathing  after our birth , plus the development of the differentiating mind , which attached to senses and reasoning , are two main reasons that we lose the contact with the limitless qi  outside ,  which results in our change to  and live  as  a short-lived animal . By chopping off   the fluctuating and differentiating minds  ('念住') * , it will inevitably lead us to some hold of the existing way of breathing ('息住')  ;  as the emptied mind persists and deepens , it develops into some kind of prolonged embryonic breathing ;  from there as our qi accumulated and its quality uplifted,  will  further lead to the whole-body breathing . In fact , it is a process so intricate ( not neccesarily means complicate ) that hardly should you request  a sifu to experience all of them  for you or to write down all details for you beforehand ..

 

* A life and death struggle

Edited June 21, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Trunk]

On 6/15/2023 at 12:35 PM, Saan said:

Through the practice of Buddhist meditation known as "whole-body breathing" (in the style of Thanissaro or Rob Burbea), I discovered that Taoism has a very similar technique called "pore breathing."  …

 

On the other hand, it seems that there is an almost infinite number of practices, which makes it immensely challenging to conduct a comprehensive search. …

 

… Is it necessary to learn all styles of breathing to make progress?

 

Agreed that breathwork is a vast subject… but there is a simple basic direction to it: integration.  (which might be said of all of the internal arts principles & methods)

 

We are integral but heavy & light stuff in us tend to separate out such that they overlap less, from top to bottom:

mind

breath

body.

 

When we are stressed breathing is shallow into the body and awareness floats even higher.

The BASIC direction is that you start blending, unifying those things more deliberately:  you focus your awareness deliberately on your breath and train to breathe more deeply into your body.  These things blend (stabilized awareness, breath, body) and alchemy occurs: more unification and through layers.

 

And, so, over a long period of time (if you’re into this sort of tribe you end up doing it your whole life) - you get so you more fully feel like you are aware with your whole body and that you are breathing with your whole body.  A practice session might not *start* that way, but gets more integral, more smoothly, more quickly over time.

 

So, I wouldn’t expect “whole body breathing” to be the only breathing method that someone would practice (as you’ve already implied), but the result of working with the breath generally, and in a variety of specific ways, over years to integrate to that level.

 

In “Tsongkhapa’s Six Yogas of Naropa” contains a method called “palm and sole breathing” that is notable and in the Tibetan tradition (unsure if this is relevant to the branch of Buddhism that you practice in).

 

Probably you know a lot of this already from your studies.

 

- Keith

 

p.s.

Iyengar's "Light on Pranayama" is a modern classic book from the yogic tradition.  It's a thick one.

 

p.p.s.

You'll find that, in most body-wisdom-disciplines that are movement based - the breath is integral with the movement.  Either in a general way or more specifically.  Breathwork (stabalized attn + breath + body) is *EVERY*where.  Every yogic stretch.  Every qigong movement. 

[thelerner]

Breath is foundational.  Not a bad practice to work on while looking for a lineage you fit into.

One of my favorites practices is from a youtube called Breathing Mantra.  Dozens of 30 minute, timed breathing exercises ie breath to the sound rhythm.  They have even in out, 3 way, and 4 way/box breathing.  Find a style you want to work with and once it comfortable, move up.  Example 5in-5hold-5 out to 7-7-7 to 9-9-9..

 

Breath is the connection between physical and spiritual, it certainly calms the body and mind.  Here's a link, there's are places you can turn it into straight mp3s.  https://www.youtube.com/@BreathingMantra   

[johndoe2012]

7 hours ago, thelerner said:

Breath is foundational.  Not a bad practice to work on while looking for a lineage you fit into.

One of my favorites practices is from a youtube called Breathing Mantra.  Dozens of 30 minute, timed breathing exercises ie breath to the sound rhythm.  They have even in out, 3 way, and 4 way/box breathing.  Find a style you want to work with and once it comfortable, move up.  Example 5in-5hold-5 out to 7-7-7 to 9-9-9..

 

Breath is the connection between physical and spiritual, it certainly calms the body and mind.  Here's a link, there's are places you can turn it into straight mp3s.  https://www.youtube.com/@BreathingMantra   

 

You can also check out the Resonant Breathing app or guided meditation https://youtu.be/-Y2imt1UCMY

[Vajra Fist]

Honestly, if you're doing Thanissaro Bhikku's stuff, you're already practicing in a very legitimate tradition.

 

This is the type of meditation that I've been doing most of the time since the start of the year. 

 

I've found taijiquan especially useful. Particularly, the Huang Sheng Shyan style of yang, which emphasises the whole body relaxation and standing qigong. 

 

Through this I've been able to more naturally transition from the 'survey of the parts' to a whole body awareness much quicker and with more stability. 

 

Before Adam Mizner started teaching his own meditation material, senior students would typically recommend Thanissaro Bhikku to those looking for a meditation practice. Imo both systems are quite complementary.

[Trunk]

This story comes up in my mind this morning, and maybe it has nothing to do with this thread …

 

Back in the ‘80s I was studying with my first meditation teacher in smallish group and the teacher was amazing and everyone intended to be enlightened (though we didn’t know what that was nor how to get there).  High goals.  And there was this one meeting where students were sharing what their spiritual goals were and I remember a remarkably wise, much-further-along-than us-noobs, humble and centered student said, “I just want to keep cycling through”.  Deepening, integrating, resolving.  

[silent thunder]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:17 AM, Trunk said:

“I just want to keep cycling through”.  Deepening, integrating, resolving.  

 

for some years now, I describe it to be like a flower that is perpetually unfolding...

[steve]

On 6/16/2023 at 2:46 PM, liminal_luke said:

I second silent thunder's recommendation of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.  He teaches online workshops regularly through glidewing.  His community has an online presence here: Ligmincha International | Ligmincha.  Great stuff although I'm not sure if there's anything similar to pore breathing.

 

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche also offers regular free teachings through his Facebook page and cybersangha.net.

The majority of his pre-recorded online programs are now hosted on ligminchalearning.com.

There is indeed a practice similar to pore breathing in the Bön tradition.

It is not generally taught as a complete method in and of itself but is a part of practices such as tsa lung and trul khor that address imbalances or blockages in the subtle and physical bodies through connecting with the five subtle winds - upper moving wind, life force wind, fire like wind, downward clearing wind, and pervasive wind.

When working with the pervasive wind a style of breathing is used that is similar to pore breathing. 

Free instruction on the five external tsa lung practices can be found as one part of the introductory, self-paced program here. 

A deeper dive into the five winds and tsa lung practices is available from one of Tenzin Rinpoche's senior teachers, Alejandro Chaoul, through the paid, self-paced program here. Alejandro is an experienced practitioner and has devoted decades to studying tsa lung and trul khor, bringing these practices to cancer patients at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas.

 

On 6/15/2023 at 3:35 PM, Saan said:

I am looking for a complete system itself that can complement my Buddhist meditation practice (or "pore breathing"). Could someone point me in the right direction in terms of masters, lineages, or styles that align with my interests? I have come across mentions of "pore breathing," but also of "bone breathing." Are these techniques similar? Is it necessary to learn all styles of breathing to make progress?

 

It is not possible to learn all styles of breathing and no particular "style" of breathing is necessary to make progress though different techniques can be very supportive depending on your particular focus at any point along the path. For example, in the practice of Tummo (inner fire), very precise breathing methods are combined with posture and visualization (this is known as engaging body [posture], speech [related to breathing pattern], and mind [visualization] which is a common thread in Bön and Buddhist methods) to achieve a particular objective - generating internal heat to help cleanse the central channel of the most subtle obstacles to abiding in the natural state. IMO, aside from those related to very specific methods like Tummo, there is no style of breathing that is more supportive in "making progress" than simply allowing the breath to follow it's own natural course and rhythm. For such natural breathing to be efficient and effective, it is important to become aware of maladaptive breathing patterns many of us have adopted over the course of our lives that interfere with optimal gas exchange and oxygenation. 

[Creation]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:35 PM, Saan said:

Hello!

I come to this forum after extensive research, and I believe this is the best place where I can find help.

 

Through the practice of Buddhist meditation known as "whole-body breathing" (in the style of Thanissaro or Rob Burbea), I discovered that Taoism has a very similar technique called "pore breathing." I found it extremely interesting and decided to learn more through online resources. However, I feel frustrated because it is not easy to find true information on this topic.

 

On one hand, it is difficult to discern which masters or lineages are authentic and which might be considered cults.

 

On the other hand, it seems that there is an almost infinite number of practices, which makes it immensely challenging to conduct a comprehensive search.

 

I am looking for a complete system itself that can complement my Buddhist meditation practice (or "pore breathing"). Could someone point me in the right direction in terms of masters, lineages, or styles that align with my interests? I have come across mentions of "pore breathing," but also of "bone breathing." Are these techniques similar? Is it necessary to learn all styles of breathing to make progress?

 

I appreciate any help you can provide in advance.

Thank you very much.

I would not equate pore breathing with whole body breathing.  Any tradition that develops mindfulness of body and breath to a certain degree will hit on the sense that the whole body pulses along with the breath.  But pore breathing is something specific to Daoist alchemy.  The foundation is reverse breathing, where the abdomen draws in on the inhale, and qi is pulled into the dantian.  A development of this to include the whole body is a subtle tightening of the skin in on the inhale, which seals the qi in the body - this is "pore breathing". 

 

Daoist alchemy is it's own huge, complete system.  So the question is, given that pore breathing isn't the same as what your Buddhist teachers are teaching, are you still interested in it? 

[Saan]

On 17/7/2023 at 5:03 AM, Creation said:

Daoist alchemy is it's own huge, complete system.  So the question is, given that pore breathing isn't the same as what your Buddhist teachers are teaching, are you still interested in it? 

 

Thank you for the help, as well as to everyone who has written with advice on my question.

In response to your question, I think it may be interesting to also learn about 'pore breathing' and give it a chance, even though it may not be directly related to 'whole body breathing'.

[saxgentleman67]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:46 AM, Vajra Fist said:

Honestly, if you're doing Thanissaro Bhikku's stuff, you're already practicing in a very legitimate tradition.

Before Adam Mizner started teaching his own meditation material, senior students would typically recommend Thanissaro Bhikku to those looking for a meditation practice. Imo both systems are quite complementary.

 

Adam charges $1000 for his meditation program. Can I get most of the concept from Bhikku's site that is free? Thanks.

[Vajra Fist]

On 21/10/2023 at 7:42 PM, saxgentleman67 said:

 

Adam charges $1000 for his meditation program. Can I get most of the concept from Bhikku's site that is free? Thanks.

 

I don't know what Adam teaches. I suspect it's quite different from Thanissaro Bhikku. 

 

Of course, when deciding between teachers the best course of action is always to look at how the person behaves.

[Barnaby]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:42 PM, saxgentleman67 said:

Adam charges $1000 for his meditation program. Can I get most of the concept from Bhikku's site that is free? Thanks.

 

Having been around the block on this, quite honestly, the idea of paying some guy off the internet $1000 to learn how to meditate is nuts.

 

Or, to paraphrase an old joke, God's way of telling you that you have too much money.