Interview with Adam Mizner

[searcher7977]

24 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

And for what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to give an account of all the developments I experienced over the course of six year's daily "Daoist cultivation", for an average of 2 hours' training a daily, following the teachings of a well-known international teacher.

 

But that teacher isn't under discussion here, so I don't know if anyone would be interested...  

 

I would be interested as well, and likely many lurkers as well. If its not with Mizner, then yeah you probably need to start another thread.

Edited January 9, 2023 by searcher7977

[Shadow_self]

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

No problem.

 

It's just that elsewhere, you said this:

 

 

And this:

 

And this:

 

Now, if no one is actually prepared to be specific about the developments they have seen in themselves and their fellow students – and, eventually, how they compare to the developments of students of other systems/traditions – I propose that we stop asserting that any system is more effective than any other.

Well the thing is, I have been specific with people about this.

 

Including with people who have been respectful and become friends over the time I've been here with  

 

Most would tell you I am a very straight, direct person.

 

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Because there's no data. It's just a bunch of words with nothing to back them up. Like the self-congratulatory marketing promo that kicked this whole thing off in the first place.

Words and text on a screen are not  proper data either.

 

This is why I keep telling people to do it. Whether I endorse it, tell people about how I astral projected out from my back passage or can turn into a human bug zapper, it means nothing really.

 

Nor do videos or whatever.

 

So what is the point? 

 

Try it and get direct experience.

 

Then you wont need to ponder of nonsensical, non useful data points   

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Absent any personal testimony of concrete developments or attainments, I personally am going to chalk all of this stuff down to wishful thinking.

 

You're free to do as you wish,

 

However, given my own expertise in experimental psychophysical measurement, I can tell you that in that assertion you are absolutely mistaken. There's nothing wishful or imaginary about it  

 

But you are 100% free to ignore me 

 

I respect your opinion, even if it is devoid of experience related to that school.

 

You wouldn't be the first person to jump to that conclusion. I'm not losing anything by you doing so  

 

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

And for what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to give an account of all the developments I experienced over the course of six year's daily "Daoist cultivation", for an average of 2 hours' training a daily, following the teachings of a well-known international teacher.

 

But that teacher isn't under discussion here, so I don't know if anyone would be interested...  

 

I'm glad you do feel comfortable to do so.

 

If you had a bit more knowledge of what I am talking about, you'd know why I'm not happy to write it all over the place  

 

But  that's ok friend I understand

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

53 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

And for what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to give an account of all the developments I experienced over the course of six year's daily "Daoist cultivation", for an average of 2 hours' training a daily, following the teachings of a well-known international teacher.

 

But that teacher isn't under discussion here, so I don't know if anyone would be interested...  

I’m interested, would be happy to see it in a new thread or PM if you prefer

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

True accomplishment of these things always has a physical or physiological change associated with it.

Thank you for this  

 

It should be a given that if you are developing and attaining, that you are seeing this happen at every level, including the physical

 

That is how tantra works after all, use the body to reach underneath the surface and create transformation.

 

It only makes sense that if you change the underlying configuration, that the expression at the surface reacts accordingly

Edited January 9, 2023 by Shadow_self

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

To my teachers these things you mention certainly matter. But they are not so significant if they remain only in the mind.

 

Another words, you can't claim to have mastered them if they remain purely on the level of the mind. This is the case with most genuine Daoist Neidan teachers.

 

Everything you mention in that list is conditional... meaning that if conditions are just so, most people can exhibit them... 

 

That's why for most classical Daoist teachers these mental signs do not signify true transformation... good signs, certainly - but not true transformation.

 

True accomplishment of these things always has a physical or physiological change associated with it.

I know we have pretty different views on this. But there is no such thing as "physiological effects" about realization. The results of realization (which occurs in the individual's mind) manifest as evaporation of fear, being equanimous despite whatever the circumstances might be, not a conditional thing. If it is conditional, then it is not real. If there are physiological changes, then they are ephemeral - the body that is born will decay and die. 

[Barnaby]

26 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

If you had a bit more knowledge of what I am talking about, you'd know why I'm not happy to write it all over the place

 

No worries, that's entirely your decision. 

 

It's just that until someone actually does come clean, this "my school is better than your school" thing is destined to go round and round in circles...  

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Barnaby said:

Why not? What's the problem?

 

Some things are easy to talk about...

 

Other, more deeply meaningful experiences are not for sharing with strangers in public - it invites a kind of cynical desecration of something that may feel very sacred to you.

 

I would never press someone to reveal something they feel is too much for public scrutiny... especially if it plays into a "my school is better than yours" frame - a pretty demeaning game. 

 

I'm happy to share the weird and wonderful mechanistic unfolding - but rarely would I share something deeply personal and meaningful!

[Shadow_self]

43 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

No worries, that's entirely your decision. 

 

It's just that until someone actually does come clean, this "my school is better than your school" thing is destined to go round and round in circles...  

 

Comes clean about what exactly?

 

For what its worth I don't think its about schools or traditions, I think its about methods.

 

Either you have access to them or you don't.

 

I think this is the point Asa was trying to, or rather should have made. Its not that there's nobody progressing in Vajrayana, its that he's personally met nobody with the methods to generate and refine energy. Doesn't mean they aren't there, and it doesn't mean there aren't people with them

 

They are on the murals on the Lukhang temple for the perceptive  

 

Every legitimate practice  from the tantric perspective I've seen would be dependant on a set of mechanics for various things

 

For example

 

If you need empowerments, guru blessings , treatments/pills or whatever  to start opening your body, clearing your channels or gathering energy because the practice wont do it for you, something is missing methodologically.

 

At this stage a teacher should be a guide, not a crutch.

 

For different things, yes empowerments, transmissions, initiation.  You cannot initiate yourself into a lineage stream for example, you're absolutely going to need a teacher to do that. 

 

But the earliest stages? No. And yet, you find so many people in that position. And even after that, they still get nowhere. And something else takes the blame, karma, health whatever.

 

It is not just in Vajrayana, not just in Qigong/Neigong, not just in Yoga, in all of them.

 

The real  reason why? It is a lack of access to the methods to do it yourself

 

Example,

 

Activate your lower Dantien and do a few weeks of Dao Yins properly with the mechanics. You'll have no doubt whether your channels are being cleared, you will get signs that are very physical (in my experience, you'll see it, feel it, smell it, taste it even).

 

You might be able to imagine a buzzy feeling or colour in your body

 

You wont be imagining anything when this shows up

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Shadow_self

[steve]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Is there some new cultivation method they teach that I’m not aware of?

 

Thanks for the explanation. It was not at all clear from Damo’s website what neidan school he is with. Both Adam and Damo seem to have a variety of teachers, some stated and others not. Not sure if they are all in the same lineage or style, etc… Adam seems to mix Buddhist and Daoist teachings. There is no mention if Damo is authorized to teach or represent a given lineage and no info about Adam’s neidan lineage, etc… So for me there were some unknowns. Your explanation is helpful.

Thanks

[steve]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Well the interesting thing about Damo is he doesn't use things like that as a focus for the school

 

That is also the case with Bön and Buddhist schools. The side effects or signs are a useful guide to see how one’s practice is progressing as I’m sure there are some signs of progress of some sort in your school. These signs are never the focus or objective of the practice, in fact that can be an obstacle, and yet it seems to be what some folks focus on when challenging the efficacy of Vajrayana methods. I’m glad we cleared that up.

Thanks

[freeform]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi freeform! 

 

Are you allowed to talk about such tests and physical signs? 

Find that a hugely interesting subject! 

😊

 

The vast majority I can't talk about! Basically if the test can be passed through contrivance it's just not shared with anyone who hasn't attained the thing. There are many that I don't even know about for that reason 😅

 

One I've talked about before is the attainment of the waterwheel... My teacher literally stuck his finger in my mouth and tasted my saliva to see whether it had the right consistency and taste... I've tasted his too (which was a mind bending experience!)

 

Other tests are less gross.

 

The majority of the tests are done without you even realising. My teacher often walks past, checks something or pokes me in some way and that's it... he rarely tells me if I even passed or not. I only know some from having to test some juniors.

 

Some are not so woo woo - like being able to hold a seemingly impossible stance for many hours on end...

 

Quite a few standard reflex changes (startle reflex, pupillary reflex, withdrawal reflex etc)

 

Some are physical changes in the body - changes in the muscles and connective tissues on palpation... changes in the skin and subcutaneous layers... the hard, physical sphere that forms around the dantien when the Qi is stimulated... 'Steel wrapped in cotton' quality...

 

There are other less important signs - like a lot of the clearing reactions eg smoke coming off the body, puss coming out from under the fingernails, putrid smelling sweat suddenly leaving the body... various bruises forming for no reason...

 

Steve mentioned opening a hole in the head (then inserting grass in there is how it's usually done) - that's a thing... An earlier sign is releasing of small amounts of plasma and blood out of the fontanel point (something I've seen in a fellow practitioner).

 

Some are a bit more woo woo esoteric like objective light phenomena... smell phenomena... sound phenomena... electromagnetic phenomena (fa qi methods build on these for instance)... some are a bit more Jesus-y (turning wine into water)... some are beyond belief (like walking through walls, teleporting, changing physical matter from one thing to another).

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, steve said:

Adam’s neidan lineage,

 

I didn't know he had one.

[steve]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I didn't know he had one.

I was curious because he mentions nei gong as an important part of his curriculum on his website -

 

after extensive personal practice and many years of teaching Tai Chi, Nei Gong and Meditation, Adam Mizner founded Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International.

Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International is dedicated to the propagation of authentic traditional meditation, nei gong and Yang Style Tai Chi.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I know we have pretty different views on this. But there is no such thing as "physiological effects" about realization. The results of realization (which occurs in the individual's mind) manifest as evaporation of fear, being equanimous despite whatever the circumstances might be, not a conditional thing. If it is conditional, then it is not real. If there are physiological changes, then they are ephemeral - the body that is born will decay and die. 

 

Hmmmm ...

[Barnaby]

54 minutes ago, freeform said:

it invites a kind of cynical desecration of something that may feel very sacred to you.

 

A bit like saying Vajrayana's shit because it uses visualisation, then? 

 

Can I be clear about my position? Because I feel that I am being misrepresented...

 

I completely respect and understand anyone's wish to be discrete about their own spiritual practice.

 

What I am uncomfortable with is when people are dismissive, superior and judgmental with regard to the spiritual practice of others.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

31 minutes ago, freeform said:

some are beyond belief (like walking through walls, teleporting, changing physical matter from one thing to another).

probably they are immortal by this stage

[Wilhelm]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

I was curious because he mentions nei gong as an important part of his curriculum on his website -

 

after extensive personal practice and many years of teaching Tai Chi, Nei Gong and Meditation, Adam Mizner founded Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International.

Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International is dedicated to the propagation of authentic traditional meditation, nei gong and Yang Style Tai Chi.

As far as I know Adam teaches martial applications of Nei Gong - specifically the skills developed through his Taiji system like Fajin are based in what he calls nei gong.

 

But its been years since I've trained in his system, so his use of the term may have evolved since then.

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

I was curious because he mentions nei gong as an important part of his curriculum on his website -

 

after extensive personal practice and many years of teaching Tai Chi, Nei Gong and Meditation, Adam Mizner founded Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International.

Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International is dedicated to the propagation of authentic traditional meditation, nei gong and Yang Style Tai Chi.

 

Neigong is a catchall term unfortunately

 

Sometimes it can be martial arts. Other times it can be purely working with Qi. Other times it can be a process to lead you through into Neidan

 

Adam I would imagine works at the first and second level.

 

Damo does all three

 

28 minutes ago, steve said:

 

That is also the case with Bön and Buddhist schools. The side effects or signs are a useful guide to see how one’s practice is progressing as I’m sure there are some signs of progress of some sort in your school. These signs are never the focus or objective of the practice, in fact that can be an obstacle, and yet it seems to be what some folks focus on when challenging the efficacy of Vajrayana methods. I’m glad we cleared that up.

Thanks

 

Well yes.

 

In fact I have specifically had things happen where I've been told not to worry about it for now.

 

But the signs not being a focus of the practice, isn't to say they they should not happen at all. I  place my focus on the cause not the effect

 

Id have taken any of the things @freeformmentioned as signs, regardless of whether they were things like that putrid smell, bruises, or something more woo-ish like the light phenomenon as a sign the practice is doing something

 

So it becomes a question of, if none of this is happening, then why?  In that case id be looking at the methods (and the teacher)

[freeform]

5 hours ago, steve said:

physical and observable changes are occurring to "prove" it works

Elsewhere on the forum there’s a thread discussing Pergadio’s book on Wang Mu - Foundations of Internal Alchemy - The Taoist Practice of Neidan…

 

On p65

 

Quote

It is said, moreover, that when the Cinnabar Field is as firm as a stone; when one's pace is as light as flying; and when, each time one begins to practice, the "source of the Medicine" is lively and brisk, the "celestial mechanism" is unobstructed and flourishing,

I’ve seen for myself (many years ago) that both Damo and most of his seniors had a ‘cinnabar field as firm as a stone’… first time I’d ever encountered this outside of just a couple of very small inner door schools… Something that’s developed in us by my teacher, but is exceptionally rare anywhere else.

 

Also outside of a small number of Taiji practitioners they were the only westerners I’d ever met who managed to develop what I call qigong body… in that they could move ‘internally’ - not using the major muscle groups in the standard pulleys and levers mode - but rather in a whole-body fascial tensegrity mode (and not ‘floating’ which is what I see most people do when they think they’ve got this quality!). Only until I met Adam - he and a couple of his students also had this. 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

34 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

A bit like saying Vajrayana's shit because it uses visualisation, then? 

 

Can I be clear about my position? Because I feel that I am being misrepresented...

 

I completely respect and understand anyone's wish to be discrete about their own spiritual practice.

 

What I am uncomfortable with is when people are dismissive, superior and judgmental with regard to the spiritual practice of others.

 

 

 

Or are you the one misrepresenting others?

 

For example, I made my position very clear on Vajrayana.

 

There is a half a handful of folk I know who are having the energetic development taking place.They aren't visualizing their channels or a fire in their stomach, they are doing something else.

 

The people that are doing that, are not getting these developments, they seem to be stagnant in that regard. Are they doing other things and getting other benefits? Sure they are, and more power to them

 

Are they having the same internal transformation that is seen in the others though? 

 

In my limited experience, No they didnt seem to be.That was the distinction I was trying to make.

 

Im saying it again for emphasis.

 

That's just been my experience. Its not some objective truth. Everyone here seems to talk from their own experience, and I think that's how share information

 

And that was why I was quite happy to hear @steve talk about his experiences.  He is surely privy to information I am not, and I am grateful to hear him talk about it in that case

 

I don't think anyone said Vajrayana is ****.

 

In fact, its quite misrepresentative to sensationalize others comments as such. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Shadow_self

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Can I be clear about my position? Because I feel that I am being misrepresented...

Didn’t mean for it to come across that way. I’ve been a bit naughty and skimmed past a lot of the latest discussion, so might’ve missed some context.

 

Quote

What I am uncomfortable with is when people are dismissive, superior and judgmental with regard to the spiritual practice of others.

Yup that’s fair. I’m sometimes guilty of that for sure - though in the case of Vajrayana I have no view as I’ve met only a couple of dedicated practitioners.
 

I’m far more judgemental of what goes for Daoism these days 😅

[Apech]

Why no mention of that Hermetic teacher in their lineages????

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

Why no mention of that Hermetic teacher in their lineages????

From my understanding Damo had not studied with Rasmus for long enough to call him his teacher. 
 

Adam - I’ve no idea.

[Wilhelm]

56 minutes ago, Apech said:

Why no mention of that Hermetic teacher in their lineages????

That Rumsoaked fist link that came up earlier seems to conflict with the personal account of every person it identifies (except Rasmus himself, who as far as I know hasn't commented publicly on his time with Damo or Adam).

 

It even listed Damo's dad as his Daoist teacher, when the opposite is true.

 

Edit: Just realized this doesn't answer your question.  Sorry about that.  Anecdotally in the interview for this thread he said he never spent too much time with any single Taiji teacher.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Apech]

19 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

That Rumsoaked fist link that came up earlier seems to conflict with the personal account of every person it identifies (except Rasmus himself, who as far as I know hasn't commented publicly on his time with Damo or Adam).

 

It even listed Damo's dad as his Daoist teacher, when the opposite is true.

 

Edit: Just realized this doesn't answer your question.  Sorry about that.  Anecdotally in the interview for this thread he said he never spent too much time with any single Taiji teacher.

Adam himself said on here that he used hermeticism to penetrate other systems - it was linked above.