Interview with Adam Mizner

[Barnaby]

15 hours ago, Geof Nanto said:

In a very real sense, as part of their transmission, they overwrite me with their lineage-based power, their lineage-based persona.

 

I'm curious to know what you mean by lineage here.

 

Whether you're referring to lineage in its traditional semi-supernatural sense, or simply as a corpus of knowledge...?

 

It seems to me that the Western teachers who are honest all admit that they have drunk at many wells.

 

So where does that leave the traditional concept of lineage (outside the religious/monastic traditions)?

 

Does it no longer exist in any meaningful sense? Or has it been resynthesized into untried amalgams, with unpredictable karmic effects? 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

You are probably familiar with Simons model, given your claim to have studied economics 

No. I am just an MBA. Thanks for the visual aid.

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

The situation here is anything but impossible in reality. 

Could you please describe 'the situation'? So as we know what we are talking about. Many thanks.  

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

No. I am just an MBA. Thanks for the visual aid.

Could you please describe 'the situation'? So as we know what we are talking about. Many thanks.  

 

You are an MBA?  Literally?

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

No. I am just an MBA. Thanks for the visual aid.

Cool, you should be more than familiar with the psychological aspects of decision making then  

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Could you please describe 'the situation'? So as we know what we are talking about. Many thanks.  

 

Certainly , the situation is whether or not a teacher is what they say they are. In this case, a practitioner with some level of skill  

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

You are an MBA?  Literally?

Yes Duke Uni, class of 95;)

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

In this case, a practitioner with some level of skill  

i hate to be  this dense but i still do not understand.  what skills exactly  we are talking about in the case of these two gents?

[markern]

20 hours ago, freeform said:

Adam’s Buddhist teacher:

 

What is all the stuff and why is he sitting with all of it?

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes Duke Uni, class of 95;)

 

If you did an MBA, and were not taught Simon's model, I suggest you have a look at it. Its rather interesting

 

28 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i hate to be  this dense but i still do not understand.  what skills exactly  we are talking about in the case of these two gents?

 

Well Adam teaches tai chi, neigong work and meditation. Never seen him discuss neidan

 

You could assess the first two by attending one of his seminars, or just doing his training for a while

 

Damo does tai chi and bagua, but is more in the realm of neigong and neidan, and meditation.

 

 

 

In either case, heuristics wont really help here

 

Now you could take the testimony of his students and newcomers. But somehow I don't think thats a desirable approach for you

 

Leaving one of the two options logically

 

#1 Investigate further in person (my suggestion)

 

#2 Not worry about it.

 

But by default that second option makes deducing any worthwhile conclusion nigh on impossible, as an opinion is only as useful as the evidence it is based on really

Edited January 2, 2023 by Shadow_self

[freeform]

20 minutes ago, markern said:

 

What is all the stuff and why is he sitting with all of it?

He mentions it in the interview. He carries over 70kgs of stuff on his body… as an aspect of his practice.

 

They're all sorts of amulets and things like that - popular in some Thai Buddhist traditions.

 

He gives away most of these as he goes

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

If you did an MBA, and Were not taught Simon's model, I suggest you have a look at it

thank you kindly i will

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Well Adam teaches tai chi, beigong work and meditation. Never seen him discuss neidan

 

Damo does tai chi and bagua, but is more in the realm of neigong and neidan, and meditation.

Thank you very much, thats what i was getting at. You see, in my understanding a skill is   a  knowledge that produces a useful product. Those activities (per se) that you kindly listed do not produce anything let alone a useful product.   It is  a fact. And the suspension of disbelief from which this discussion has started is needed to block that fact from the logical reasoning of their customers. Now, i do not judge neither of them. I just make an observation which might be constructive for our community.

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Barnaby said:

It seems to me that the Western teachers who are honest all admit that they have drunk at many wells.

 

So where does that leave the traditional concept of lineage (outside the religious/monastic traditions)?

 

Does it no longer exist in any meaningful sense?

It never existed for westerners.  You see, the asians think that  an outsider can never be one of them.  Of course the westerners disagree so its a matter of opinion.

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

It never existed for westerners.  You see, the asians think that  an outsider can never be one of them.  Of course the westerners disagree so its a matter of opinion.

 

There are western lineages of a sort - like the apostolic lineage of the Catholic church for instance.

 

 

[Wilhelm]

25 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

nvm.  Two people talking to you at once lol

Edited January 2, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

thank you kindly i will

Most welcome

 

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

Thank you very much, thats what i was getting at. You see, in my understanding a skill is a knowledge that produces a useful product.

 

Thats not really accurate.

 

A skill is an ability, knowledge is only sometimes part of the equation.

 

There are for example many highly skilled people with lets say music, who have no knowledge of it whatsoever, yet can produce said useful product

 

You can have skill without actual knowledge. Ill give you a personal example

 

I can do somewhat complex algebra in my head. I have absolutely no idea about the formula or how it works. I just look at it, and the answer comes to me. I actually had to learn how to work backwards to see where the answer came from in order to not lose marks in school.

 

I still to this day have no notion of how it happens, and zero idea of the formula or the rules. Skill without knowledge would you say? I have no great knowledge of maths. And I took  basic exams.

 

This was just something I was able to do with no clue as to how or why

 

A person who lacks skill, will need knowledge in order to gain some level of it (if they have the capacity at all, and that's another argument really ) 

 

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

Those activities (per se) that you kindly listed do not produce anything let alone a useful product.

 

Have you any evidence of this? A claim requires evidence after all

 

Just to use the most basic example.

 

Someone can relax from tai chi. In fact people do all the time.

 

This alone is a useful product (outcome) of practice (activity) in and of itself, and kind of negates the argument you are a making

 

This could get very long, so i'll just leave at that  

 

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

 It is  a fact.

 

Well not really, a fact is an statement of truth, supported by  good evidence.

 

This is an opinion, an opinion which I am still trying to deduce where exactly the evidence is for it to exist in the first place?

 

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

And the suspension of disbelief from which this discussion has started is needed to block that fact from the logical reasoning of their customers.

 

Well, we first need to establish evidence. Then we can talk about belief (or lack thereof)

 

Do you have any evidence to suggest that none of these things produce a useful outcome.

 

Any actual evidence, or just an opinion?

 

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

Now, i do not judge neither of them. I just make an observation which might be constructive for our community.

Im not sure you would make such a statement if you didnt judge them. But as humans we judge. Everyone does it

 

The issue is whether our judgement is an accurate representation of reality, and the facts

[Taoist Texts]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

There are western lineages of a sort - like the apostolic lineage of the Catholic church for instance.

 

 

well yes. If you take things at a face value. But some say it was an esoteric/exoteric  succession. Or the in-party/out-party if you will.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/inner-party-in-1984.html 

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

i.e. Taiji produces internal skills like Fajin

great. lets say it does. what good comes out of this Fajin?

[Wilhelm]

Just now, Taoist Texts said:

great. lets say it does. what good comes out of this Fajin?

ahhhhh I wrote it but deleted it.  Shadow_Self is defending the angle I was going to, so I'll just sit this one out (rude to have two people talking about the same thing at you) _/ \_

[Barnaby]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

There are western lineages of a sort - like the apostolic lineage of the Catholic church for instance.

 

Yep, absolutely.

 

But just to be clear where I was going with this (and what I think TT was bouncing off of...), I was referring to the decentralized Asian lineages operating outside of an institutionalized religious framework. 

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I can do somewhat complex algebra in my head.

thats just fantastic!

 

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Someone can relax from tai chi.

Yes someone can. But you see all of the  humankind can relax without tai chi. Just by sitting down and taking the load off. So personally for me that "product"  is not useful. And i dont see how it is useful for others.  No usefulness (utility)=no product=no skill. Thats why i say  these activities do not produce anything  on  their own.

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

ahhhhh I wrote it but deleted it

its a shame. i was interested in your opinion.

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

rude to have two people talking about the same thing at you) _/ \

oh please au contraire i am honored

[Taoist Texts]

4 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

decentralized Asian lineages

this talk of  lineages always makes me laugh because  it so Hollywood and Disney.  Paging Mr. Miyagi!

 

[Barnaby]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

this talk of  lineages always makes me laugh because  it so Hollywood and Disney. 

 

You're a cynic, TT 

[dino]

1 hour ago, markern said:

 

What is all the stuff and why is he sitting with all of it?

 

[Shadow_self]

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats just fantastic!

Thank you, but It is actually horrifically irritating to arrive at answer without knowing how you got there   Kind of like a plate of fully prepared food appearing before you magically.

 

Too many questions (and suspicions)  arise  

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes someone can.

Well we agree then, it does produce something (You said it didnt)

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

But you see all of the  humankind can relax without tai chi. Just by sitting down and taking the load off.

Ah you are shifting the goalposts now. Earlier it produced nothing

 

The new argument is, there's an alternative means of producing a similar result

 

But remember, the above example was only to prove that it can in fact produce an outcome, which you yourself agreed to above

 

But to be devils advocate, what about people, who when they sit down, actually become less relaxed? Its a thing you should know.

 

Ever met people who clean excessively to fight off compulsive thoughts?

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

So personally for me that "product"  is not useful. And i dont see how it is useful for others. 

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I feel the need to remind you again why this "product" was adopted as an example

 

Now we are into the realm of a third argument, which is a useful outcome

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

No usefulness (utility)=no product=no skill.

Utility is context specific my friend. How useful is a spoon for skinning an animal? Or better yet hunting one

 

It is not related to whether it is a product

 

This is a rather odd trajectory you are taking this? 

 

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Thats why i say  these activities do not produce anything  on  their own.

 

Well you did just state someone can relax by doing tai chi, do you think there is another component to it?

[Neirong]

51 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

But to be devils advocate, what about people, who when they sit down, actually become less relaxed? Its a thing you should know.

 

Imagine people who require heavy drugs to get relaxed. Like whiskey and cigars.
Wait.

Those are the famous masters of "internal skill."
So what exactly are they teaching?
What is the value of teaching in the end?

 

The skill is so big it is swelling off their bodies as fat and a personality so advanced spiritually. All social media are loaded with flaunting wealth, derogatory posts towards Asian, Daoist, and Buddhist cultures, Daoist sex posts, and laughing at many other traditions.

The high school kids have a higher level of spiritual and intellectual development and don't act as your Teachers do online.

The funniest thing in this story is cult followers who will accept everything above and even invent a greater purpose or meaning. They choose to close their eyes on reality and listen to fantasy words from their "Guru" mouth.

Overall it reminds me of Osho; the guy was also very popular.