Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Mark Foote]

Science is good, even though when it comes to underlying theory, scientists will have their differences.

Last night I thought of an odd connection, between Gautama's description of the fourth meditative state (in which volition in the body ceases) and a case from "The Blue Cliff Record", the "Record" being the collection of cases published by Ch'an teacher Yuanwu in China.  Here's Gautama's description of the feeling of the fourth meditative state, again:

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity…

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

And here's the case:

 

Yun Yen asked Tao Wu, "What does the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion use so many hands and eyes for?"
Wu said, "It's like somebody reaching back groping for a pillow in the middle of the night."

Yen said, "I understand."

Wu said, "How do you understand it?"

Yen said, "All over the body are hands and eyes."

Wu said, "You have said quite a bit there, but you've only said eighty percent of it."
Yen said, "What do you say, Elder Brother?"

Wu said, "Throughout the body are hands and eyes."

("The Blue Cliff Record", Yuanwu, tr. Cleary & Cleary, Shambala p. 489)
 

I wrote about the case, some years ago:

 

Proprioception for me involves that shift in the sense of the location of awareness, and the ability to feel throughout my body. That is why there are hands and eyes all over the body; proprioception moves the location of awareness, so that equalibrioception continues to occur with the experience of the feeling of the part in the whole. A continuity with a sensation like the cessation of activity in falling asleep can ensue through relaxation in the activity of breath.

 

Proprioception accounts for the hands, but the eyes also inform the sense of location--in fact, the eyes can reset the sense of location.  The feeling of location associated with awareness is a function of equalilbrioception (the vestibulars), proprioception (the proprioceptors), graviception (the otoliths), and oculoception (the eyes).  Dysfunction in the coordination of these senses can result in an out-of-body experience (see the work of Olaf Blanke).  Healthy coordination of these senses means there's a location in the body associated with the experience of awareness, and that location is singular. 

The influence of the eyes on the location of self-awareness is strong, and frequently I feel the awareness I identify as "self" to be behind my eyes, in my head.  An openness to the other senses involved in that sense of location, particularly proprioception, and a surrender of action of the body in the movement of breath, can yield a feeling that the mind is moving.  Not just the the object of attention, but the location of self-awareness is moving, throughout the body.  

The purity of mind--not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by the purity of mind.  Hands and eyes, throughout the body.

 

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Does non-dual realization come at or near the endpoint of spiritual development?  Or is it more like Everest basecamp, the first stop north of duality where intrepid spiritual climbers gather their energies for the real (alchemical) work ahead?  If you'll kindly hold a lifetime or two, I'll be right back and let you know.

Edited May 6, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Immediately after realization you are dropped back into duality, but with the knowledge that ultimate reality is non-dual. Over a short period of time being able to see the non-dual becomes an "available perspective" - an ability to lift the curtain and see how things are when attention is directed toward it. It takes some time for the larger remaining obscurations and habituated patters to finally resolve enough for the self-to drop away. Eventually, when the illusion of "self" drops away, the delusion of duality drops away. The non-dual quality of reality is ALWAYS visible in duality.  
 

 

 

-

 

 

No-one chooses. Things happen. If there is no-self there is no resistance - there can be in alignment with what wants to happen. Lao Tzu would call it "being in accord with the way". It is commonly referred to as "wu wei". It is being present with what is happening and allowing it to happen - through "you" if it needs to. 

 

 

You are putting words in my mouth. I am glad you have your maxim. I have many years of practicing "moral" practices and keep the precepts, but these things are just conditioning that doesn't seem to fall away at this point. Still, reality is non-dual. Things are as they are whether you like them or have an opinion on which is "just". Your maxim and the deeper non-dual nature of things coexist, but one of them won't eventually fade from history.

 

 

It might be worth examining what makes you so frustrated about what a stranger on the internet posts in answer to your thread on dualism vs. non-dualism. I feel I am answering your posts courteously. Is there some reason we can't be collegial?

 

I have tried to explain my frustration with nondual-speak, but I’ll say it again to try and clarify. From my perspective the nondual awakened have experienced anandamaya kosha and as you say above have then dropped out of that experience,  from then in though they have set their manas consciousness to want to be in anandamaya consciousness always, to be perfectly aligned with it, I could say they are in love with anandamaya kosha in the way that manas loves and clings to store consciousness. What nondualists don’t comprehend is that anandamaya/nondual consciousness is not the endpoint, but one more form of consciousness that they are identifying with, just as they once identified with physical, emotional and mental consciousness. They disregard these earlier levels of consciousness as false, and don’t realise that their nondual perspective is equally false. Conceptually then, Atman is beyond duality, but it is also beyond nonduality. 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I have tried to explain my frustration with nondual-speak, but I’ll say it again to try and clarify. From my perspective the nondual awakened have experienced anandamaya kosha and as you say above have then dropped out of that experience,  from then in though they have set their manas consciousness to want to be in anandamaya consciousness always, to be perfectly aligned with it, I could say they are in love with anandamaya kosha in the way that manas loves and clings to store consciousness. What nondualists don’t comprehend is that anandamaya/nondual consciousness is not the endpoint, but one more form of consciousness that they are identifying with, just as they once identified with physical, emotional and mental consciousness. They disregard these earlier levels of consciousness as false, and don’t realise that their nondual perspective is equally false. Conceptually then, Atman is beyond duality, but it is also beyond nonduality. 

There IS no manas consciousness, anadamaya consciousness and so on. There is only consciousness. Anything you can experience is not the Atman. 

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

There IS no manas consciousness, anadamaya consciousness and so on. There is only consciousness. Anything you can experience is not the Atman. 

There IS manas consciousness, anandamaya consciousness etc until the moment they are all thoroughly and permanently disidentified from. Then they don’t exist, only Atman does. I have heard the experience of Atman cannot be put into words, but I see nondualists have no problem putting their experience into words. 

[steve]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Does non-dual realization come at or near the endpoint of spiritual development?  Or is it more like Everest basecamp, the first stop north of duality where intrepid spiritual climbers gather their energies for the real (alchemical) work ahead?  If you'll kindly hold a lifetime or two, I'll be right back and let you know.

 

In a sense non-dual realization has nothing to do with spiritual development, which is an activity of mind. Non-dual realization is a shift, from not-knowing to knowing; a lifetime of seeing things from a trusted and unquestioned perspective and then having that perspective exploded.That shift is an experience, described in many ways (thunder bolt, God experience, empty, Oneness, Self, awakened, unbounded, immortal, unborn, undying, unconditional love, even catastrophe…). I don’t think it correlates with any particular part of the path. It seems to occur randomly. I have a friend who woke up at age 8.

 

Spiritual practice may be able to help it to happen but often it happens early on the path and the practice can help it to mature and stabilize, and express itself as service to others, and sometimes it never happens although I’m guessing it happens at death of we’re aware enough.

 

It can also fade into the background, covered up by habits and foolishness, but I don’t think it’s ever gone completely. From the non-dual perspective there is no need of any path; beginning and end have no real meaning. Non-duality can only ever refer to NOW. Any words we can throw at it, whatever we think it is or say it is are wrong, always, it is unimputable. 

[old3bob]

there is that great saying about sharping a knife,  in that if one keeps at to long pretty soon there is no useable knife left.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

There IS manas consciousness, anandamaya consciousness etc until the moment they are all thoroughly and permanently disidentified from. Then they don’t exist, only Atman does. I have heard the experience of Atman cannot be put into words, but I see nondualists have no problem putting their experience into words. 

Atman simply cannot be experienced! 

 

If someone claims they “experienced atman”, they are simply wrong. Atman IS consciousness itself. How can it be experienced with any senses or the mind? What people can describe are the states of the mind (empty mind, ecstatic mind, blissful mind, peaceful mind, joyful mind, happy mind, sad mind, and so on). 
 

And there are no “different types” of consciousness. There is simply consciousness, illuminating the mind and it’s objects. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by dwai

[steve]

My teacher likes to frame it as what we are able to experience is the release of obstacles. We live with one or more particular obstacles, limitations of perspective, our entire lives and they are suddenly gone, leading to an abrupt and potentially dramatic shift in experience. This is very personal and explains why people describe their experiences as they do. 

[Bindi]

 

 

The Anandamaya kosha or 'sheath made of bliss', or ananda is in Yoga and Vedantic philosophy the most subtle or spiritual of the five levels of embodied self. 
 

It is not possible to exactly translate the word ananda; its meaning is closer to equanimity than bliss. There is unified experience and that experience does not change. It is peace, joy, and love that is underneath, beyond the mind, independent of any reason or stimulus to cause a happy mental reaction.

 

Taittiriya Upanishad says:

Hidden inside it (Vigyanamaya Kosha) is yet a subtler body, composed of pure joy. It pervades the other bodies and shares the same shape. It is experienced as happiness, delight, equanimity and bliss.

 

It further defines anandamaya kosha as having the shape or form of a person with love as its head, joy as its right wing and delight as its left wing, bliss as its trunk and Brahman as its support or foundation.

 

Anandamaya kosha is the most interior of the koshas, the first of the koshas surrounding the Atman, the eternal center of consciousness. It is the subtlest of the five koshas…

 

This is a state of mind which does not change, despite anything that happens in life. With that state of mind you can live with all the conditions of life. You are where you are, firmly rooted in your own self, but at the same time you can interact with everyone. You can do anything, but still not be affected. Death cannot change that experience; birth cannot change it; love and hatred cannot make your experiences swing. When your mind becomes steady in experience and does not fluctuate under any condition, that is ananda. So, anandamaya kosha means the kosha which comprises homogenous experience.

 

Satyam Loka, the plane of ultimate bliss, corresponds to anandamaya kosha, which is none other than pure consciousness. 

The anandamaya kosha is extremely important in yoga because it’s the final and thinnest veil standing between our ordinary awareness and our higher Self.

 

…Ananda is steady state of being, no matter what circumstance arises. The state of wholeness, of integration with the moment and with yourself, encompasses the inner sheath of anandamaya. This bliss state is usually experienced in fleeting moments, but can remain for longer periods. Anandamaya can be experienced in those moments when you are fully immersed in that which you are doing—when you no longer separate yourself from your experience.

 

Importantly, anandamaya is still a sheath, a layer that can be peeled back. When anandamaya is peeled away, we reach atman—our very center. Atman is our direct connection with the divine, with the essence of all that is. It is our pure consciousness.

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Bindi

[dwai]

24 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

 

The Anandamaya kosha or 'sheath made of bliss', or ananda is in Yoga and Vedantic philosophy the most subtle or spiritual of the five levels of embodied self. 
 

It is not possible to exactly translate the word ananda; its meaning is closer to equanimity than bliss. There is unified experience and that experience does not change. It is peace, joy, and love that is underneath, beyond the mind, independent of any reason or stimulus to cause a happy mental reaction.

 

Taittiriya Upanishad says:

Hidden inside it (Vigyanamaya Kosha) is yet a subtler body, composed of pure joy. It pervades the other bodies and shares the same shape. It is experienced as happiness, delight, equanimity and bliss.

 

It further defines anandamaya kosha as having the shape or form of a person with love as its head, joy as its right wing and delight as its left wing, bliss as its trunk and Brahman as its support or foundation.

 

Anandamaya kosha is the most interior of the koshas, the first of the koshas surrounding the Atman, the eternal center of consciousness. It is the subtlest of the five koshas…

 

This is a state of mind which does not change, despite anything that happens in life. With that state of mind you can live with all the conditions of life. You are where you are, firmly rooted in your own self, but at the same time you can interact with everyone. You can do anything, but still not be affected. Death cannot change that experience; birth cannot change it; love and hatred cannot make your experiences swing. When your mind becomes steady in experience and does not fluctuate under any condition, that is ananda. So, anandamaya kosha means the kosha which comprises homogenous experience.

 

Satyam Loka, the plane of ultimate bliss, corresponds to anandamaya kosha, which is none other than pure consciousness. 

The anandamaya kosha is extremely important in yoga because it’s the final and thinnest veil standing between our ordinary awareness and our higher Self.

 

…Ananda is steady state of being, no matter what circumstance arises. The state of wholeness, of integration with the moment and with yourself, encompasses the inner sheath of anandamaya. This bliss state is usually experienced in fleeting moments, but can remain for longer periods. Anandamaya can be experienced in those moments when you are fully immersed in that which you are doing—when you no longer separate yourself from your experience.

 

Importantly, anandamaya is still a sheath, a layer that can be peeled back. When anandamaya is peeled away, we reach atman—our very center. Atman is our direct connection with the divine, with the essence of all that is. It is our pure consciousness.

 

 

 

 can you share the source? Who’s the author? And this doesn’t disprove anything I wrote about the Atman. Yes, the equanimous state of the mind is still a state of the mind. That which knows this state, like all others, or even the state of absence of objects as in deep sleep or nirvikalpa samadhi, that is the Atman. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by dwai

[Lairg]

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

What people can describe are the states of the mind (empty mind, ecstatic mind, blissful mind, peaceful mind, joyful mind, happy mind, sad mind, and so on). 

 

 

Women often prefer heart states to mind states

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

 

Women often prefer heart states to mind states

And how does one know the heart state? 

[Bindi]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

 can you share the source? Who’s the author? 

https://savy-international.com/yoga/anandamaya-kosha/
 

author Dr Jitender K Sahdev https://savy-international.com/about/teachers/

 

[Lairg]

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

And how does one know the heart state? 

 

 

Just as the mind interfaces with the brain, so does the heart/buddhic state interface with the heart energy in the physical body.

 

It is necessary to rise above the frequencies of the mind into the frequencies of the heart.  This requires refining and stilling thoughts and lifting attention to the Buddhic plane - the basis of right relationship in humans

 

Stability on the Buddhic plane is a critical precondition for stage 2 enlightenment. 

 

The other conditions include intent, alignment, detachment from human karma, and sponsorship 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Lairg

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 can you share the source? Who’s the author? And this doesn’t disprove anything I wrote about the Atman. Yes, the equanimous state of the mind is still a state of the mind. That which knows this state, like all others, or even the state of absence of objects as in deep sleep or nirvikalpa samadhi, that is the Atman. 

“That which knows this state, like all others,” as just one more state, is indeed the Atman, but would the Atman raise the status of this one state above all other states by desiring to experience this one state above all others? 
 

I think to extricate oneself from the delusion of anandamaya kosha the Vijnanamaya Kosha (Wisdom or Awareness Body) needs to first be developed, otherwise one cannot see where ego and anandamaya kosha start and end. Without wisdom one will see only anandamaya kosha and will want only anandamaya kosha,  with some wisdom one will notice the presence of ego and try to destroy ego leaving only anandamaya kosha. I think the real work is to overcome the seduction of anandamaya kosha experience and seek to separate consciousness from anandamaya kosha (along with all other koshas). 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Bindi

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Bindi said:

“That which knows this state, like all others,” as just one more state, is indeed the Atman, but would the Atman raise the status of this one state above all other states by desiring to experience this one state above all others? 

Atman doesn’t . The personality does. What would you, bindi prefer? An agitated mind or a peaceful mind? A mind filled with anger and hatred or a mind filled with joy and love? Atman is perfect as it is.  

20 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I think to extricate oneself from the delusion of anandamaya kosha the Vijnanamaya Kosha (Wisdom or Awareness Body) needs to first be developed, otherwise one cannot see where ego and anandamaya kosha start and end. Without wisdom one will see only anandamaya kosha and will want only anandamaya kosha,  with some wisdom one will notice the presence of ego and try to destroy ego leaving only anandamaya kosha. I think the real work is to overcome the seduction of anandamaya kosha experience and seek to separate consciousness from anandamaya kosha (along with all other koshas). 

Nothing needs to be developed. These are all already present and palpably knowable, right here and right now. We all “experience” the anandamaya kosha in deep sleep every night (except the insomniacs).  There is no mystical aspect to these koshas. Every time you make a decision, you experience the vijnanamaya kosha. Every time you have a thought, you experience the manomaya kosha. Every time you take a breath, you experience the pranamaya kosha. 
 

The only delusion there is, is of not recognizing our true nature as being that Atman — consciousness, spotless and ever free.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Atman doesn’t . The personality does. What would you, bindi prefer? An agitated mind or a peaceful mind? A mind filled with anger and hatred or a mind filled with joy and love? Atman is perfect as it is.  
 

 

 

The danger of following the preferences of personality is that very often the most important things we have to do to progress are not what we would prefer. Like shadow work, going through the deepest darkest places of anxiety and anger because there is light on the other side. Like sitting with emotional pain until it is healed. Like letting go of what feels most desirable. Allowing personality to make choices is like letting a toddler decide what to put in the shopping trolley. 

 

Quote

Nothing needs to be developed. These are all already present and palpably knowable, right here and right now. We all “experience” the anandamaya kosha in deep sleep every night (except the insomniacs).  There is no mystical aspect to these koshas. Every time you make a decision, you experience the vijnanamaya kosha. Every time you have a thought, you experience the manomaya kosha. Every time you take a breath, you experience the pranamaya kosha. 
 

The only delusion there is, is of not recognizing our true nature as being that Atman — consciousness, spotless and ever free.

  

[dwai]

41 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

The danger of following the preferences of personality is that very often the most important things we have to do to progress are not what we would prefer. Like shadow work, going through the deepest darkest places of anxiety and anger because there is light on the other side. Like sitting with emotional pain until it is healed. Like letting go of what feels most desirable. Allowing personality to make choices is like letting a toddler decide what to put in the shopping trolley. 

 

  

Personality will continue in some form, as long as the body continues. That personality continues doesn’t affect the Self knowledge.

 

What the nondualist is actually saying is — the desire to be holy, pure, free etc is pointless. You already are, and always have been free. You are not the personality, so why crave for the personality’s likes and dislikes. Be free of the personality’s whims. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

one  way experience is described  is to  review in aftermath,  thus that is  not 

delusional  per-se its just not and never can be the whole timeless potato that

is  outside of time and space.  Btw, I think this fact is very well alluded too in the T.T.C.

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

one  way experience is described  is to  review in aftermath,  thus that is  not 

delusional  per-se its just not and never can be the whole timeless potato that

is  outside of time and space.  Btw, I think this fact is very well alluded too in the T.T.C.

Could you post some TTC verses that you think capture this? 

[Apech]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

And how does one know the heart state? 

 

Quote

Anyone who had a heart
Would take me in his arms and love me, too

                                                          - D. Warwick Zen master.

[Apech]

Technically speaking realisations/awakenings are not experiences since the English word means 'tested out' - as in we experience heat and cold which are environmental conditions, we might experience mental states because we have separated our 'selves' from our minds - which is part of the problem anyway.  Experiences are dualistic therefore.

 

 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Personality will continue in some form, as long as the body continues. That personality continues doesn’t affect the Self knowledge.

 

What the nondualist is actually saying is — the desire to be holy, pure, free etc is pointless. You already are, and always have been free.
 

 

 You say “You already are, and always have been free,” but are you already and always have been holy and pure as well?  or is it just free? 

 

Quote

You are not the personality, so why crave for the personality’s likes and dislikes. Be free of the personality’s whims. 

 
You ask me what would I prefer, “An agitated mind or a peaceful mind? A mind filled with anger and hatred or a mind filled with joy and love?”,  as though I can make this choice, and now you ask me why crave for the personality’s likes and dislikes and tell me to be free of the personalities whims. 
 

Why?  I responded earlier that I didn’t think making choices based on the preferences of the personality was a good idea anyway, that it was like letting a toddler decide what to put in the shopping trolley. 

 

Stirling did something similar, he said nonduality would ideally be taught with an eye toward generating compassion for other beings, to soften the cherishing of the "self". This is the best way to avoid becoming an enlightened asshole, as though this was a choice, though he was very clear earlier that the “whole idea that you are a person who is in charge of your destiny, or that which practice you choose is in your hands, is nonsense. Projecting yourself or objects into the future and thinking what you imagine might REALLY happen, or imagining that something that happened to you in the past has any absolute reality is nonsense.”

 

Confusing. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Bindi,

 

A Zen master once said that we should be able to switch back and forth between the relative view and the absolute view at will.