Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[old3bob]

An excerpt from the Isha Upanishad, translation by Easwaran: 

(a Upanishad which in total is short but to me is very powerful and revealing.

 I'd say the meaning of the text points to a summation that in an analogy type of

 way says to  put away the battles related to a dual or non-dual only type of argument)

 

".....8. The Self is everywhere. Bright is the Self,
Indivisible, untouched by sin, wise,
Immanent and transcendent. He it is
Who holds the cosmos together.

 

9-11. In dark night live those for whom
The world without alone is real; in night
Darker still, for whom the world within
Alone is real. The first leads to a life
Of action, the second to a life of meditation.
But those who combine action with meditation
Cross the sea of death through action
And enter into immortality
Through the practice of meditation.
So have we heard from the wise.

 

12-14. In dark night live those for whom the Lord
Is transcendent only; in darker still,
For whom he is immanent only.
But those for whom he is transcendent
And immanent cross the sea of death
With the immanent and enter into
Immortality with the transcendent.
So have we heard from the wise...."

 

(the bolded and underlined text by me) 

Edited May 3, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Some people are able to perceive subtle forms and the subtle energy channels, I have been lucky enough to come in contact with two of them - in both cases they didn’t have a clue as to what they were seeing, they weren’t teachers, merely seers, but I have been able to build up an understanding over time about the meaning of what they see, and to work with my subtle body via what they’ve seen to follow its natural evolution. 

so basically someone told you that your consciousness is in the two Nadis and that’s your “lower self”, while if it is in your central channel it is your “higher self”? 

 

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This information broadly accords with Indian Yoga knowledge of the nadi’s and chakras as well as Daoist dantians, and my personal dream information, so I am satisfied that this is the fundamental reality that we need to understand and align with. 
 

so in addition to hearsay, you rely on dreams. So are these YOUR dreams or someone else’s? 

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Non-dualism has no interest in developing these subtle channels as far as I know, I don’t think early Buddhism did either, but Yogis of course did and still do. 
 

The “subtle” channels hold as much consciousness as a nail on my little toe. Which btw is the same as the consciousness that is held in any other part of the body. You see, consciousness doesn’t work in the way you think it does. It doesn’t flow in nadis or dantiens alone - it permeates everything, animate and inanimate. You’ll begin to understand if you can say who you are, in a fraction of a second, without a single thought. 

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Here’s a question, why did Tibetan Buddhists who as I understand it have a nondual outlook get involved in working with subtle body channels, was there something lacking in their nondual view that needed subtle energy body work? Or was it subtle energy body work that lead to their nondual view? 

Their system integrates tantra as taught to them by the siddhas - tantra is a valid school of nondual practice, btw. Though I don’t think  every school of Tibetan Buddhism actually does so. 

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Perception can change in a single moment, but the blocks in the subtle energy channels take time to clear. I have no wish to change my perception because I equate achievement of nondual perception with the stopping of subtle body development, and I value subtle body development a lot higher than the rewards of nondual perception that I have heard about. 
 

“The various yogas all have their own story to tell about liberation, and can be pursued on their own. But as nondualism sees it, the yogas tend to serve as ramp-ups to non-dual inquiry itself.” ~ Greg Goode (Ph.D)

 

 

There is no “nondual” perception. There is nondual realization. Non-duality is not an experience. Anything you can experience is not reality. 
Techniques (yoga, neigong, etc etc) can help prepare one’s mind  - in that they are invaluable. Nondual realization cannot be brought about by them. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by dwai

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

so basically someone told you that your consciousness is in the two Nadis and that’s your “lower self”, while if it is in your central channel it is your “higher self”? 

 

 

No, they both consistently had no idea of the explanation of what they were seeing, I have made sense of what they see over time, though I will add that I have not progressed from consciousness in Ida and Pingala yet, so I have not so much to say yet about the reality of consciousness in the central channel. When I do get to that point it’s highly likely that I will have something to say about it though 😄

 

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

so in addition to hearsay, you rely on dreams. So are these YOUR dreams or someone else’s? 
 

 

Actually they’re mine and other people’s, I have found that we all refer to the same thing despite individual bias. Dreams are an amazing offering, within them we have access to the highest teaching, but the inability to interpret them (or remember them in the first place) closes that amazing and prolific door. 

 

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

The “subtle” channels hold as much consciousness as a nail on my little toe. Which btw is the same as the consciousness that is held in any other part of the body. You see, consciousness doesn’t work in the way you think it does. It doesn’t flow in nadis or dantiens alone - it permeates everything, animate and inanimate.
 

 

From what I have come across consciousness flows in nadi’s specifically not dantians, and Ida and Pingala are special Nadi cases because as far as I have understood they carry the emotional and mental forces. These are very accessible to clearing by us, and once cleared result in entry into the central channel. I could equally say to you, consciousness doesn’t work in the way you think it does. 

 

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

You’ll begin to understand if you can say who you are, in a fraction of a second, without a single thought. 
 

 

I know who I am potentially, but as I say I haven’t realised my Self beyond emotion and mentation yet. 

 

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Their system integrates tantra as taught to them by the siddhas - tantra is a valid school of nondual practice, btw. Though I don’t think  every school of Tibetan Buddhism actually does so. 

There is no “nondual” perception. There is nondual realization. Non-duality is not an experience. Anything you can experience is not reality. 
 

 

It’s all just part of the nondual talk to me.

 

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Techniques (yoga, neigong, etc etc) can help prepare one’s mind  - in that they are invaluable. Nondual realization cannot be brought about by them. 

Do Yoga and Neigong aim for nondual realisation in the first place? Nondual realisation is not my aim, though if that happens to be the end result I wouldn’t have a problem with that,  if nondualism was the natural outcome of my subtle body development. 
 

I’m not aiming for anything, I’m just seeing where the journey takes me. 

[dwai]

41 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

No, they both consistently had no idea of the explanation of what they were seeing, I have made sense of what they see over time, though I will add that I have not progressed from consciousness in Ida and Pingala yet, so I have not so much to say yet about the reality of consciousness in the central channel. When I do get to that point it’s highly likely that I will have something to say about it though 😄

so you will continue to follow a path just because someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing told you something none of you understand? Good luck with that!  👍🏾 

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Actually they’re mine and other people’s, I have found that we all refer to the same thing despite individual bias. Dreams are an amazing offering, within them we have access to the highest teaching, but the inability to interpret them (or remember them in the first place) closes that amazing and prolific door. 

Usually dreams are just residual processing of the mind. What makes your dreams so special? 

Quote

 

 

From what I have come across consciousness flows in nadi’s specifically not dantians, and Ida and Pingala are special Nadi cases because as far as I have understood they carry the emotional and mental forces. These are very accessible to clearing by us, and once cleared result in entry into the central channel. I could equally say to you, consciousness doesn’t work in the way you think it does. 

That is clearly incorrect. Consciousness works precisely the way I said it does. You can believe what you want though. 

Quote

 

 

I know who I am potentially, but as I say I haven’t realised my Self beyond emotion and mentation yet.

You clearly missed what I was pointing to. 

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It’s all just part of the nondual talk to me.

 

Do Yoga and Neigong aim for nondual realisation in the first place? Nondual realisation is not my aim, though if that happens to be the end result I wouldn’t have a problem with that,  if nondualism was the natural outcome of my subtle body development.

Yoga certainly does - “yogas chitta vritti nirodhah” (yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind). Neigong, ymmv depending on who you ask. Some stop at developing Siddhis. Others proceed to actually transform their mind.

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I’m not aiming for anything, I’m just seeing where the journey takes me. 

 

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

so you will continue to follow a path just because someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing told you something none of you understand? Good luck with that!  👍🏾 
 

 

I will continue to follow a path just because TWO people who don’t know what they’re SEEING told me something I HAVE COME TO understand. 

 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Usually dreams are just residual processing of the mind. What makes your dreams so special? 
 

 

Such a minimising view of dreams. Maybe my dreams are so special because I allow them to educate me about reality instead of making decisions about reality for myself via my mundane mind. 
 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is clearly incorrect. Consciousness works precisely the way I said it does. You can believe what you want though. 
 

 

So you say. Of course I will believe what I want, just as you will. 

 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

You clearly missed what I was pointing to. 
 

 

I didn’t miss it , I’m just not interested because I find something else more valuable.

 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yoga certainly does - “yogas chitta vritti nirodhah” (yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind). Neigong, ymmv depending on who you ask. Some stop at developing Siddhis. Others proceed to actually transform their mind.

 

I have already agreed that the truth lies beyond the mundane mind, we only disagree on what the truth is beyond the mundane mind. 

[Apech]

Hello,

 

I've read quite a bit of this thread but not all of it - so if I repeat some point already made then sorry for that.

 

I think that systems, practices, religions - whatever you like to call them - vary in their approach and can be dualistic, monist, non-dual etc. in the way they express what the 'work' is.  I would not discount any valid system because it presents as dualistic or non-dualistic etc. as long as it develops a consistent set of praxes which lead the practitioner toward first; stages of realisation and clarity and then to immortality.  I think they necessarily occur in this order because it is about first seeing the 'truth' and then embodying the 'truth'.  Although the work in some systems may be more explicitly aligned toward the second goal even in the early stages - while others almost ignore it until later.  This can be confusing as it can mistakenly draw people into the view that the second stage is thought invalid.

 

Specifically I think one thing that is often lost is that 'non-dual' is not the same as 'monist'.  To put it simply if there is 'me' and 'IT' - then monism says there is only 'IT' and 'me' must be dissolved into 'IT'.  However this can often be a presentational issue - as when entering into this system one is taught more subtle teachings which deal with this apparent negation of self.  Dualism can say that both 'me' and 'IT' can coexist eternally side by side.  While 'non-dual' says that the essence of 'me' and the essence of 'IT' are not different, while 'me' is not the same as 'IT'.  This is a little hard to grasp as it is based in a non-conceptual awareness of what happens when the awareness in 'me' encounters the awareness in 'IT' and recognises itself in the other.

 

What must not happen is the extinction of 'me' in 'IT' as this is called the second death, and to be avoided if the spiritual alchemical work is to be complete.  So monism is essentially faulty but can be allowed for as mentioned above.  Avoiding the second death is not in the negation of self but more the completion of self - in other words the joining of parts, the purification, the circulation of energy and the integration of a whole being, the work for which is done at the subtle energy body level.

 

Just my thoughts of course.

[awaken]

你把非二元當成哲學了

 

非二元如果當成哲學，那就糟糕了，根本就是一團糨糊

 

非二元從來都不是哲學，而是性功

 

You treat non-duality as philosophy

If non-duality is considered philosophy, it's bad, it's just a mess

Non-duality is never philosophy, it's Shin work

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

The first time the term non-dual was used in Buddhism was by Nagarjuna. Gautama could have used this term but didn't, and he didn't teach non-dualism as a metaphysical principle, instead he taught dependent origination, Non-clinging and Emptiness which aren't the same as non-duality.

 

Dependent Origination is absolutely Emptiness is absolutely non-duality. You have to look at what they POINT to, not the language. These are conceptual ways to look at something entirely non-conceptual. They are like 3 separate people looking at the same ocean from different continents with slightly different perspectives. 

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

At which stage of initiation/enlightenment does there exist a choice between dual and non-dual?

 

Seeing duality is a misinterpretation of what is always actually here. Non-dual reality is always right here, and for the most part looks just like this. There isn't a choice between one or the other. Enlightenment is seeing through your belief in a person that chooses and realizing it was always just a delusion about how things are. There have never been any "stages". While you can get a glimpse, it isn't the complete realization. You are either see things as they are or you don't.

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

Here’s a question, why did Tibetan Buddhists who as I understand it have a nondual outlook get involved in working with subtle body channels, was there something lacking in their nondual view that needed subtle energy body work? Or was it subtle energy body work that lead to their nondual view?

 

I can answer this one. Mandalas, visualizations, energy movement, appeals to individual nagas, dakinis, buddhas, etc. are relative practices used to work away at clearing obscurations that limit the seeing of things as they are. They can be useful in the right student, but once Rigpa (knowledge of the ground of reality in Tibetan Buddhism) is seen and understood such practices are unnecessary. Enlightenment is the ONLY eventual intended outcome. Once there is enlightenment all such practices are seen to have no reality of their own like all appearances.

[stirling]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

The “subtle” channels hold as much consciousness as a nail on my little toe. Which btw is the same as the consciousness that is held in any other part of the body. You see, consciousness doesn’t work in the way you think it does. It doesn’t flow in nadis or dantiens alone - it permeates everything, animate and inanimate. You’ll begin to understand if you can say who you are, in a fraction of a second, without a single thought. 

 

Their system integrates tantra as taught to them by the siddhas - tantra is a valid school of nondual practice, btw. Though I don’t think every school of Tibetan Buddhism actually does so. 

 

There is no “nondual” perception. There is nondual realization. Non-duality is not an experience. Anything you can experience is not reality. 

Techniques (yoga, neigong, etc etc) can help prepare one’s mind  - in that they are invaluable. Nondual realization cannot be brought about by them. 

 

I started to type a response to the same statements Bindi made but I see Dwai has beat me to the punch, and quite capably. I am merely reposting his response because it is clear and brilliant and really deserves re-reading. 

 

Deep bows.

[awaken]

53 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I can answer this one. Mandalas, visualizations, energy movement, appeals to individual nagas, dakinis, buddhas, etc. are relative practices used to work away at clearing obscurations that limit the seeing of things as they are. They can be useful in the right student, but once Rigpa (knowledge of the ground of reality in Tibetan Buddhism) is seen and understood such practices are unnecessary. Enlightenment is the ONLY eventual intended outcome. Once there is enlightenment all such practices are seen to have no reality of their own like all appearances.

 

 

這些是內景，西藏密宗卻拿來當成觀想的內容了

 

觀想是想像，與事實無關

 

但是練到三階段陽生，這些都是真正的內景

 

不是視覺化的觀想

These are the interior scenes, but the Tibetan Tantra is used as the content of the visualization

Visualization is imagination, not about facts

But after practicing to the third stage of yangsheng, these are the real interior scenes

not visual visualization

 

無為法的失傳

造成許多人練不到三階段陽生

因此有些人採用想像的方式

以為想像這些曼陀羅就是一種練習

 

我必須說，想像曼陀羅根本不是練習

是在欺騙自己

因為只要你練無為法

你可以練出真正的曼陀羅

而不是想像出來的曼陀羅

 

 

各位把非二元當成哲學

把曼陀羅當成想像的對象

整個修行遭到嚴重的扭曲

 

非二元是性功

曼陀羅是性功練對之後必然產生的內景

 

這裡很多人都練不出光

連光是如何演化的都沒人知道

真是非常的遺憾

 

The lost of Wuwei

As a result, many people cannot practice the third stage of Yang Sheng.

So some people take the imaginary way

Thought imagining these mandalas was an exercise

I must say, imagining a mandala is not a practice at all

are deceiving yourself

Because as long as you practice Wuwei

You can make a real mandala

rather than an imaginary mandala

You take non-dual as philosophy

Think of the mandala as an object of imagination

The whole practice was seriously distorted

Non-binary is Sin goung

The mandala is the interior scene that inevitably occurs after Sin goung

 

A lot of people here can't practice Wuwei

No one even knows how light evolved

It's a pity

 

意識的演化必然導致光的演化

當一個人意識沒有產生演化

光就不會出現

所以根據參同契

陽神就是日魂，也是烏肝

陰神就是月魄，也是兔髓

只要意識產生演化，必然產生烏肝和兔髓

如果只有氣感

那就表示還沒到練氣化神的程度

只有在練精化氣的程度

是不可能知道什麼是意識的演化

 

The evolution of consciousness must lead to the evolution of light

When a person's consciousness does not evolve

light will not appear

Therefore, according to CantonQi

The Yan-Shen is the soul of the sun, and it is also the black liver

The Yin-Shen is the soul of the moon and the marrow of the rabbit

As long as consciousness evolves, black liver and rabbit marrow will inevitably be produced

If one only have Qi senses

That means it has not yet reached the level of practicing Qi and transforming into Shen.

Only at the level of refining qi

it is impossible to know what the evolution of consciousness is

 

而讓意識產生變化的方法

就是非二元對立

也就是中觀

 

the way to change consciousness is

Non-duality

that is, the middle view

 

當你把注意力放在你的氣繞行任督的時候

你這種練法就已經違反非二元對立了

所謂的非二元對立是對於練功當中的一切現象

採取不壓抑也不放縱的態度

一種對心靈力量的非導引態度

如果你練的時候採用的態度是把注意力放在引導氣感上

你就已經失去非二元對立的態度了

你不可能一邊談論的非二元對立的態度

一邊又使用二元對立的方式在你的練功上

這樣是非常自相矛盾的

When you focus on your chi bypassing Rendu

Your practice has violated non-binary opposition.

The so-called non-dual opposition refers to all phenomena in the practice of qigong.

Adopt an attitude of neither repression nor indulgence

A non-leading attitude towards the power of the mind

If you practice with an attitude that focuses on guiding the sense of qi

you've lost your non-binary attitude

A non-binary attitude you can't talk about at the same time

On the other hand, you use duality in your practice

This is very contradictory

Edited May 3, 2022 by awaken

[steve]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’m sorry I misrepresented what you wrote, I can see you didn’t say that you have to go on retreat to maintain your nondual perspective. Re-reading your comment today would it be more appropriate to say that you noticed during a retreat that you fell short of actualising the nondual perspective in many areas of your life? 

 

No, it would be more accurate to say  I was sharing some common experiences of meditation.

[old3bob]

in all these posts being right does not matter or is wrong if not done rightly

Edited May 3, 2022 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

Something for Bindi, from "The Mahamudra Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance by the Ninth Karmapa Wang-ch'ug dor-je,
with commentary given orally by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche" (p. 40-41):
 

According to the tantra teachings, the mind and the energy-winds upon which it rides are inseparable. If the energy-winds (prana, lung) are properly channeled, the mind will be focused; but when they run wild then thoughts do likewise. These winds run through energy-channels (nadi, tza), the main ones being the central, right and left ones parallel to and slightly in front of the spine. Normally the winds pass only through the right and left ones, and in this way act as the vehicle for deluded thoughts. Such delusions are stopped, however, when the energy-winds carrying them are no longer available, having been channelised and centralised into the central energy-channel. Therefore if your rough body is straight and in the correct posture, your energy-channels will also be in a proper position. Then the energy-winds can flow freely through them and, when properly channeled, your mind will be fully focused. For this reason the bodily posture of Vairocana is essential.

This work is available online, at no cost.

There are some further instructions in the text.
 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

I like this, from Awaken:

 

If you practice with an attitude that focuses on guiding the sense of qi

you've lost your non-binary attitude

A non-binary attitude you can't talk about at the same time

On the other hand, you use duality in your practice

This is very contradictory

 

I also agree with this, from stirling:
 

Enlightenment is seeing through your belief in a person that chooses and realizing it was always just a delusion about how things are.

 

I think it's necessary to experience action in the absence of choice, before "belief in a person that chooses" can be abandoned.

The experience of action of the body without the exercise of volition (choice) occurs in the fourth of the initial concentrations, according to Gautama.  I would say it's also possible to just drop into such cessation, Rujing's "drop mind and body".

That's because such a cessation basically depends on the freedom of the mind to move, as experienced right here, right now.  I would contend that it's an experience of this freedom that is described in the Tibetan literature as:
 

... the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

 

("The Mahamudra Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance by the Ninth Karmapa Wang-ch'ug dor-je,
with commentary given orally by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche" (p. 142))

 

I focus on the way the mind moves just before falling asleep, in my own writing, as a place to begin.  I finish my writing with a description of the linkage between stretch and the freedom of the mind to move, stretch that meditators take the seated posture to realize, the freedom of the mind to move that leads the stretch.  

I'm not aiming for the experience Gautama had, that gave rise to his enlightenment.  I would like to breathe free.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Mark Foote

[dwai]

The mind is not Consciousness. It's very important to discern between mind and consciousness, though it might seem that they are the same. Mind is a phenomenon, it can start, stop, race, crawl etc etc. Consciousness is ever-present. One doesn't need a samadhi "experience" to realize this, though it might be necessary for many (I've had to go through that too). But the "freedom" is ever-present, right here and right now. What's missing the recognition, as it is mixed up with all the "things" it shines upon. 

[forestofemptiness]

21 hours ago, Bindi said:

I questioned Steve on this because he posted publicly that he occasionally has to go on a retreat to maintain his non-dual perspective.

 

So I see the root of the issue. Fortunately, there is an ancient chant from the Tantra of Unspoken Words:

 

When children do not listen to their parent's words,

An evil time, when Daobums quarrel,

And people read nondual philosophy but practice not

When there are Mo Pai feuds and Buddhist wars alike,

These provoke the one

Known as Steve

On the Internet

Woe to the ones

Upon whom he pours his well-thought posts!

 

[steve]

2 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

So I see the root of the issue. Fortunately, there is an ancient chant from the Tantra of Unspoken Words:

 

When children do not listen to their parent's words,

An evil time, when Daobums quarrel,

And people read nondual philosophy but practice not

When there are Mo Pai feuds and Buddhist wars alike,

These provoke the one

Known as Steve

On the Internet

Woe to the ones

Upon whom he pours his well-thought posts!

 

I just spat my mint iced tea all over the internet!

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Using the terms in this article,
 

Thich Nhat Hanh: The Four Layers of Consciousness

 

 the root of the problem is that manas operates in store consciousness and creates a sense of self there. The sense of self can be intellectually negated at the level of working mind consciousness, but it’s not easy to negate the sense of self in the background store consciousness because it is so clingy (see below). I’m guessing it is the manas consciousness that nondualists claim is so easy to extinguish. 

 

I don’t believe the average nondualist has uprooted their sense of self/ego on the level of store consciousness, more likely their manas is actually strengthened (smug) in the belief that they have achieved so simply and directly what is almost impossible. 

 

Quote

 

The Illusion of Freedom

Manas is always operating. It never lets go of store consciousness. It’s always embracing, always holding or sticking to store consciousness. It believes store consciousness to be the object of its love. That’s why store consciousness isn’t free. There’s an illusion that store consciousness is ‘me,’ is my beloved, so I can’t let it go. Day and night there’s a secret, deep cogitation that this is me; this is mine, and I have to do everything I can to grasp, to protect, to make it mine. Manas is born and rooted in store consciousness. It arises from store consciousness and it turns around and embraces store consciousness as its object: “You are my beloved, you are me.” The function of manas is to appropriate store consciousness as its own.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Bindi

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

I think it's necessary to experience action in the absence of choice, before "belief in a person that chooses" can be abandoned.

The experience of action of the body without the exercise of volition (choice) occurs in the fourth of the initial concentrations, according to Gautama.  I would say it's also possible to just drop into such cessation, Rujing's "drop mind and body".

 

This is my experience too. Nicely said.

 

Quote

I'm not aiming for the experience Gautama had, that gave rise to his enlightenment.

 

I would say that anyone setting themselves up to have an enlightenment "experience" that matches anyone else's will find failure. While the insight can be applied to any aspect of duality, the "experiences are necessarily unique. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by stirling
Something added.

[Bindi]

Also from the article referred to above

Quote

When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of ‘I am,’ disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness.

 

I would differ and say when we have destroyed manas consciousness both it and store consciousness disintegrate,  but there is another consciousness that was hidden by all these previous layers of consciousness, and it is this consciousness or Self that needs to be discovered/uncovered and allowed to develop. 

It is this ultimate consciousness that is the ‘Higher Self’, the Self at the centre of the Koshas, beyond 

the “Anandamaya Kosha, or the Illusory Self of Bliss … the ‘All is I’ experience which is an unbroken epiphany.”

 

“Beyond the sense of self-identity, past the realm of intuitive wisdom, rests the thin layer of cosmic particles separating you from the nakedness of Self. This field is your bliss body, anandamaya kosha. 

When you embody anandamaya kosha, you merge with the experience of bliss and enter a yogic state of samadhi. This rapture, no matter how intensely enjoyable, is not yet the highest of samadhis  — that resides outside the realm of all experience. The samadhi you encounter here sparkles with subtle perceptions and streams of ecstasy. 

 

EVERYDAY EXPERIENCES OF ANANDAMAYA KOSHA

Ever been so absorbed in an activity that there was no thought of yourself or the action? A joyous levity and freedom of movement often accompanies this state of immersion. 

That is anandamaya kosha. A child at play, without a sense of time or space, naturally embodies it.”

 

To think this Kosha is the end point is to be trapped in the store consciousness forever, with the manas consciousness still fully entwined, because they only disintegrate both together at the same time. 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Bindi

[dwai]

Saw this very interesting questionnaire for potential Vajrayana students (seemed apropos for all Advaita seekers) — 

 

Spoiler

What Does it Take to Be a Vajrayana Student?

1. A pebble cannot be a Vajrayana student. In other words, to follow the Vajrayana path you need a mind. 
Do you have a mind?  Yes  No 
 
As you can see, I’ve ticked the first box for you.

2. To follow the Vajrayana path you must also have buddha nature.
Do you have buddha nature?  Yes  No  
 
Whether you believe it or not, this box automatically gets a big tick.

3. To follow the Vajrayana path, your emotional defilements must necessarily be temporary and removable. 

Are your emotional defilements temporary and removable?  Yes  No 
 
A Vajrayana practitioner’s three most important qualities are: mind, buddha nature and emotional defilements. You don’t need to worry about whether you have them or not because, like it or not,
mind, buddha nature and emotional defilements are facts of life for all human beings. What do you need defilements for? If there are no defilements, there is no path. What is the point of washing a cup if it isn’t dirty?

4. To follow the Vajrayana path, you must recognize that this dualistic world and life are endlessly futile.

Do you see the futility of this worldly life?
Yes  No 
 
5. To follow the Vajrayana path, you must long for liberation, not just for yourself but for all sentient beings. 

Do you long to liberate yourself and all sentient beings?  Yes  No 
 
6. To follow the Vajrayana path, you must understand and appreciate, at least intellectually, the union of appearance and emptiness – in other words ‘paradox’. 

Do you accept the paradoxical nature of the union of appearance and emptiness throughout all aspects of phenomenal existence?
Yes  No 
 
7. To follow the Vajrayana path, you need to accept that everything you perceive is your own, unique projection. And I mean everything, from the book you are reading right now to Donald Trump’s hair. 

Do you accept that everything you perceive is your own, unique projection?
Yes  No

8. If you ticked ‘yes’
As you accept that everything is your own projection, now look at your so-called ‘mind’, the ‘projector’. 
Does your mind have a tangible colour or shape?
Yes  No 
 
9. If you ticked ‘no’ 
Who is it that knows there is no colour and shape? A cognition, an awareness of nothingness.

Can you now see that mind is not a void?
Yes  No 

A Tibetan baby boy slides out of his mother’s womb into a room filled with Vajrayana thangkas and his family boasts seven generations of tantric practitioners. This Tibetan baby does not have one more ounce of what it takes to qualify as a tantric practitioner than the daughter of an eighth generation Russian orthodox Christian, whose eyes are as blue as turquoise, hair is as red as coral, and skin is as white as pearls.
 
If you answered ‘no’ to any of the above questions (apart from number 8) or are unable to answer any or all of them, but still believe you are entitled to become a Vajrayana practitioner, I have to say, you are batting on a very sticky wicket. Please think again. 

To give you Vajrayana teachings would be like giving a three-year-old child voting rights in her parents’ divorce negotiations. (Incidentally, the reasons for her parents not fighting in front of their daughter should far outweigh those for including her in this kind of family discussion.) 

All that being said, I hope you have understood that the point of this questionnaire is not that all Dharma centres should now give it to prospective Vajrayana students to fill out. It is just an example of how Vajrayana practitioners should think.

Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse
Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana
Siddhartha’s Intent

 

[Apech]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

Also from the article referred to above

 

I would differ and say when we have destroyed manas consciousness both it and store consciousness disintegrate,  but there is another consciousness that was hidden by all these previous layers of consciousness, and it is this consciousness or Self that needs to be discovered/uncovered and allowed to develop. 

It is this ultimate consciousness that is the ‘Higher Self’, the Self at the centre of the Koshas, beyond 

the “Anandamaya Kosha, or the Illusory Self of Bliss … the ‘All is I’ experience which is an unbroken epiphany.”

 

“Beyond the sense of self-identity, past the realm of intuitive wisdom, rests the thin layer of cosmic particles separating you from the nakedness of Self. This field is your bliss body, anandamaya kosha. 

When you embody anandamaya kosha, you merge with the experience of bliss and enter a yogic state of samadhi. This rapture, no matter how intensely enjoyable, is not yet the highest of samadhis  — that resides outside the realm of all experience. The samadhi you encounter here sparkles with subtle perceptions and streams of ecstasy. 

 

EVERYDAY EXPERIENCES OF ANANDAMAYA KOSHA

Ever been so absorbed in an activity that there was no thought of yourself or the action? A joyous levity and freedom of movement often accompanies this state of immersion. 

That is anandamaya kosha. A child at play, without a sense of time or space, naturally embodies it.”

 

To think this Kosha is the end point is to be trapped in the store consciousness forever, with the manas consciousness still fully entwined, because they only disintegrate both together at the same time. 

 

 

 

 

The two systems you compare here, express the realisation in different ways - Self or non-self, but these are conceptualisations of something non-conceptual or beyond words.  the Buddhist quote says 'we find ourselves enjoying' etc. after having said the sense of self disappears!  So who is finding themselves enjoying?  We could go round and round in circles with these terms forever, thus proving that what is being pointed to is beyond words anyway   

 

The granddaddy of all dharmic thought, Samkhya was dualistic as it resolves reality to two - purushas (selves) and prakriti (universal substance) - and it could be said that much of what follows in yoga philosophy, advaita, Buddhism and so on are ways of resolving that dualism (or sometimes just affirming it).

 

Philosophical thought and analysis is necessary to progress - but it has numerous traps which actually can become obstacles to progress if we are not very careful.  Especially if the goal is conceptualised as being some kind of static endpoint.

 

The extinguishing of the self, or sense of the self as 'manas' and also what exactly the status of the alaya-consciousness is, are almost speculative debates, especially as the sense of self gets caught up with the moral sense of for instance 'being selfish is bad/being selfless is good' and so on.  So our ego in a vain attempt to perfect itself and become a shining perfect ego is slightly obsessive about these topics - because of shame and conscience.  This gets mixed into objective thought about the nature of mind and reality and adds to the disturbing nature of mental content.  I am not saying we should not try to improve ourselves by good ethical conduct and kindness etc. - actually these will help gather merit, the vital energy needed for spiritual work and will reduce the chaotic component in our lives which will enable us to concentrate on real work.

 

Anyway I'll stop rambling. 

[old3bob]

The often heard drumbeats that pound on and on about "illusion" (with its attached negative connotation) are a rather deafening affront to me...  The words I'd use instead would be along the lines of evolving, temporary or in flux being that all Kosha's arise from and are connected (as derivative's) to Brahman and which also "return" to Brahman. So if folks go along with that then where does so called illusion begin or end if and when  absolute connections to the Real are recognized?!   Btw. and it may be a stretch (and not all that applicable of a correlation),  but there is a Buddhist saying that is close to, "samsara properly understood is Nirvana)