Bindi

Differences between dualism and non-dualism

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Posted (edited)

I’ve been reading a bit about about Saiva Siddhanta which is classed as dualist as opposed to non-dualist, and I see certain statements that appeal to me, for instance:

 

“Prelude to the descent of divine liberating wisdom into the soul is purification of the soul by removal of impurities (malaparipakam).”

 

I always like methods which look at cleaning/clearing within, it’s in the Neiye  “Clean/clear the heart/mind/Xin, and the numinous spirit will come. It’s also in the external yellow court scripture “Cleanse the heart/mind/Xin to self-heal rather than wither from impurity.” 
 

Both the Neiye and the external yellow court scripture also refer to the descent of something important into the heart/mind/Xin/soul, in the Neiye “the numinous spirit will come,” in the yellow court “From above, the Heavenly Qi is received, granting increased life. In Christianity there is also the ‘Holy Spirit’ descends from above. 
 

Very likely confirmation bias is operating here, I believe in cleaning/clearing within, and I gather quotes to support this view. But there is also the further stage that these few references above speak about, the holy thing that comes into the purified vessel, the thing beyond that is not “I”, the thing greater than “I”, which perhaps defines an important difference between dualism and non-dualism. 
 

 

Edited by Bindi
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Regarding its firmly dualistic stance, “Saiva Siddhanta is of the belief that the individual soul maintains its individuality even after liberation, lives in close proximity to Siva and does not merge with Siva.” 

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Some personal ramblings to be heavily salted,

 

In Bön dzogchen and tantra practice, we also first clear channels and chakras energetically through breath, movement, sound, visualization, etc… depending on the path. This prepares the suitable vessel for receiving the blessings and empowerments, the Body of Light. And they often enter through the crown, heavenly nectar, divine wisdom, all the empowerments.

 

 But our actions can only reflect these Blessings if I is not dominating our experience of life and that is the practice of Wu Wei for me.

 

When I is operating exclusively the dualist view is solely available. TaiJi

The world of YinYang we live and its dynamic energy of  tsal the 10,000 things. 

 

When I loses some of its monopoly of identification, the experience of self-originated wisdom is already there, nondual realization is Self-Clear that it has always ever been so and never farther than the centerless center of My Being, hence the apparent smugness of the non-dualistas, myself included. We often think less ego is operating than others might observe and hold to thoughts, ideas and feelings of the View rather than continuously resting in Unbounded Bliss. 

 

Both perspectives are equally valid throughout life and death in my View.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bindi said:

Regarding its firmly dualistic stance, “Saiva Siddhanta is of the belief that the individual soul maintains its individuality even after liberation, lives in close proximity to Siva and does not merge with Siva.” 

 

Hello Bindi,  it depends on which school or order you talking about when it comes to dualism and non-dualism in Saiva Siddhanta, for insatnce:  

 

"What Is Saiva Siddhanta?

"Saiva Siddhanta is the name of our school of Hinduism. It is today the oldest, most vigorous and widely practiced of the six forms of Saivism. It has many millions of devotees, tens of thousands of active temples and dozens of living monastic and ascetic traditions. Saiva Siddhanta once enjoyed a glorious presence throughout India. Today it is strongest within the Tamil traditions of South India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and elsewhere. In fact, it is sometimes referred to simply as Tamil Saivism. The term Saiva Siddhanta means 'the final, or established, conclusions of Saivism.' Today there are two primary schools of Saiva Siddhanta. One is the pluralistic school of Meykandar, which holds that God, soul and world are eternally separate. The other is the monistic school of Tirumular, which stresses the ultimate oneness of man and God. We follow Tirumular's lineage, which is specifically called Shuddha Saiva Siddhanta. For both schools, Siva is All, and His divine, manifest energy, Shakti, is inseparable from Him. In the temples we often see Siva and Shakti enshrined as two separate beings, a divine couple, but in truth they are one. We worship Ganesha and Murugan as great Lords who serve their creator, God Siva. We chant the holy mantra Namah Sivaya. We wear rudraksha beads and holy ash. We revere the many Saivite saints. We believe it is necessary to have a living guru. We cherish the holy Sivalinga, keep company (sangam) with other devout , and revere the great many Siva temples. These four -- guru, Lingam, sangam and valipadu (worship) -- are the essence of Saiva Siddhanta as found in ancient Tamil and Sanskrit scriptures."

 

Quoted from the Himalayan Academy in Kauai Hawaii.

 

I've bolded and underlined the name above of what to me is  ultimately the non-dualistic school of Saiva Siddhanta that works with dualism as in not being in denial of it,  yet and again is ultimately non-dualistic in the final summation of its teachings on realization.  A note: many people here are born and raised U.S. westerners with some Christian background and I'd say (like me) it is a major and difficult shift  to try adopt, adapt or be adopted and adapted into forms of full fledged Hinduism which has very deep spiritual and cultural roots along with societal support in ways of life that are so different from common "western" ways;  and that to me is one of the reasons why so many westerners have adopted what could be called Buddhism largely adapted to western peoples and its society.

Edited by old3bob

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非二元是練性功的部分,屬於中觀

 

因為只有中觀才能進入深度無雜質的入定態

 

你不練無為法的話,這些理論對你來說永遠是理論,不會成為現實

 

Non-duality is the part of practicing Sin goung, belonging to the middle way

Because only the Middle Way can enter into the deep, impurity-free state of tranquillity

If you don't practice the Law of Inaction, these theories will always be theories to you and will not become reality

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’ve been reading a bit about about Saiva Siddhanta which is classed as dualist as opposed to non-dualist, and I see certain statements that appeal to me, for instance:

 

“Prelude to the descent of divine liberating wisdom into the soul is purification of the soul by removal of impurities (malaparipakam).”

 

I always like methods which look at cleaning/clearing within, it’s in the Neiye  “Clean/clear the heart/mind/Xin, and the numinous spirit will come. It’s also in the external yellow court scripture “Cleanse the heart/mind/Xin to self-heal rather than wither from impurity.” 
 

Both the Neiye and the external yellow court scripture also refer to the descent of something important into the heart/mind/Xin/soul, in the Neiye “the numinous spirit will come,” in the yellow court “From above, the Heavenly Qi is received, granting increased life. In Christianity there is also the ‘Holy Spirit’ descends from above. 
 

Very likely confirmation bias is operating here, I believe in cleaning/clearing within, and I gather quotes to support this view. But there is also the further stage that these few references above speak about, the holy thing that comes into the purified vessel, the thing beyond that is not “I”, the thing greater than “I”, which perhaps defines an important difference between dualism and non-dualism. 

 

 

without going into a lot of references or details I'd say that an "above" or descending power helps unlock a "within" power,  powers that can be so great that one should and really must be first purified in multiple ways to dwell or be with same!   (although Grace can make some kind of visit (so to speak) with such possible even if one is not well prepared )

Edited by old3bob

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11 hours ago, Bindi said:

Regarding its firmly dualistic stance, “Saiva Siddhanta is of the belief that the individual soul maintains its individuality even after liberation, lives in close proximity to Siva and does not merge with Siva.” 

Immortality project :) 

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Posted (edited)

頭頂的百會如果沒有打開

 

氣是不會從頭上下來的

 

而且頭頂的百會打開之後

 

也不是直接氣灌進來

 

而是濁氣會先出去

 

清氣才會進來

 

我講的不是理論

 

是我在十幾年前的經驗

 

If the baihui above your head is not opened

The qi won't come down from outside

And after the Baihui above the head opens

It's not directly inhaled.

But the turbid qi will go out first

Fresh qi will come in

I'm not talking about theory

It's my experience more than ten years ago

Edited by awaken

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14 hours ago, steve said:

When I loses some of its monopoly of identification, the experience of self-originated wisdom is already there, nondual realization is Self-Clear that it has always ever been so and never farther than the centerless center of My Being, hence the apparent smugness of the non-dualistas, myself included. We often think less ego is operating than others might observe and hold to thoughts, ideas and feelings of the View rather than continuously resting in Unbounded Bliss

One of my spiritual mentors says, "be like a crocodile...quietly lay in wait, with your mouth open -- for the right prey to drop in for a visit". :D  -- He refuses to discuss non-duality with the layperson and is very selective about who he engages with on these matters. There is certainly value to first assimilating (or marinating in) the realization, before making statements.

 

I think many people go through a phase where after realizing the truth, a desire arises to share the word (myself included) - especially on a spiritually focused forum such as TDB (and it CAN become the zeal of the newly converted). And indeed, while "under the influence", the ability to discern between profundity and annoyance can be lost (both on part of the speaker, and the reader/listener).

 

 

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This thread reminds me of the Hanuman story that Swami Sarvapriyananda often tells/cites. Rama asks Hanuman how Hanuman sees Rama. Hanuman's answer (or at least one translation): 

 

 “O Lord, while I identify myself with my body, I am Thy servant (Dvaita). When I consider myself as Individual Soul, I am Thy part (Vishishtadvaita). But when I look upon myself as the Spirit (Atma), I am one with Thee Thyself (Advaita).”

 

 

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5 hours ago, dwai said:

 

I think many people go through a phase where after realizing the truth, a desire arises to share the word (myself included) - especially on a spiritually focused forum such as TDB (and it CAN become the zeal of the newly converted). And indeed, while "under the influence", the ability to discern between profundity and annoyance can be lost (both on part of the speaker, and the reader/listener).

 

 

Far from being annoyed, I'm grateful for the lightness and glow the forum's more awakened members bring to my reading day.

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21 hours ago, steve said:

Some personal ramblings to be heavily salted,

 

In Bön dzogchen and tantra practice, we also first clear channels and chakras energetically through breath, movement, sound, visualization, etc… depending on the path. This prepares the suitable vessel for receiving the blessings and empowerments, the Body of Light. And they often enter through the crown, heavenly nectar, divine wisdom, all the empowerments.

 

 But our actions can only reflect these Blessings if I is not dominating our experience of life and that is the practice of Wu Wei for me.

 

When I is operating exclusively the dualist view is solely available. TaiJi

The world of YinYang we live and its dynamic energy of  tsal the 10,000 things. 

 

When I loses some of its monopoly of identification, the experience of self-originated wisdom is already there, nondual realization is Self-Clear that it has always ever been so and never farther than the centerless center of My Being

 

 

Perhaps there is a state that you have experienced/do experience that you have named ‘non-dual realization’, but this realization  doesn’t contain the evolved subtle energy body that I have seen glimpses of and am cultivating. Everyone contains the subtle energy body potential, but if that potential is left unfulfilled because of engagement with non-dual philosophy or the non-dual state then to me it is like the non-dualist holds a seed in their hand and thinks they have arrived, all the time never planting the seed and never seeing it’s true potential form revealed. 
 

Not knowing or caring that they hold the seed, and not valuing its potential or realised form, I feel the non-dualist dismisses the pursuit of subtle body development as the lesser path. 
 

One thing I would note though, I think it’s true that many people engaged in subtle energy body development make grave errors in their methods, and in this sense I suspect people would generally be better off doing nothing rather than make errors. 

 

21 hours ago, steve said:

 

hence the apparent smugness of the non-dualistas, myself included. We often think less ego is operating than others might observe and hold to thoughts, ideas and feelings of the View rather than continuously resting in Unbounded Bliss. 

 

 

Yes, thoughts, ideas and feelings of the View are hollow when not backed up by the state, I gather you have to make some effort to attain that state again and again and not just spout the philosophy. TBH I even question the value of resting in Unbounded Bliss. I have some inkling of the practical healing and knowing power of the evolved energy body, and I wouldn’t trade the evolution of it for a lifetime’s Unbounded Bliss. 

 

21 hours ago, steve said:

 

Both perspectives are equally valid throughout life and death in my View.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Hello Bindi,  it depends on which school or order you talking about when it comes to dualism and non-dualism in Saiva Siddhanta, for insatnce:  

 

"What Is Saiva Siddhanta?

"Saiva Siddhanta is the name of our school of Hinduism. It is today the oldest, most vigorous and widely practiced of the six forms of Saivism. It has many millions of devotees, tens of thousands of active temples and dozens of living monastic and ascetic traditions. Saiva Siddhanta once enjoyed a glorious presence throughout India. Today it is strongest within the Tamil traditions of South India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and elsewhere. In fact, it is sometimes referred to simply as Tamil Saivism. The term Saiva Siddhanta means 'the final, or established, conclusions of Saivism.' Today there are two primary schools of Saiva Siddhanta. One is the pluralistic school of Meykandar, which holds that God, soul and world are eternally separate. The other is the monistic school of Tirumular, which stresses the ultimate oneness of man and God. We follow Tirumular's lineage, which is specifically called Shuddha Saiva Siddhanta. For both schools, Siva is All, and His divine, manifest energy, Shakti, is inseparable from Him. In the temples we often see Siva and Shakti enshrined as two separate beings, a divine couple, but in truth they are one. We worship Ganesha and Murugan as great Lords who serve their creator, God Siva. We chant the holy mantra Namah Sivaya. We wear rudraksha beads and holy ash. We revere the many Saivite saints. We believe it is necessary to have a living guru. We cherish the holy Sivalinga, keep company (sangam) with other devout , and revere the great many Siva temples. These four -- guru, Lingam, sangam and valipadu (worship) -- are the essence of Saiva Siddhanta as found in ancient Tamil and Sanskrit scriptures."

 

Quoted from the Himalayan Academy in Kauai Hawaii.


 

 

Most if not all references to Saiva Siddhanta that I have come across do state it is dualistic, for instance this Diploma in saiva siddhanta course from an Indian university states “Being a dualistic philosophy, the goal of Shaiva Siddhanta is to become an enlightened soul through Lord Shiva's Grace.” https://www.universitydunia.com/courses/arts/p-g-diploma-in-saiva-siddhanta

 

14 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

I've bolded and underlined the name above of what to me is  ultimately the non-dualistic school of Saiva Siddhanta that works with dualism as in not being in denial of it,  yet and again is ultimately non-dualistic in the final summation of its teachings on realization.  A note: many people here are born and raised U.S. westerners with some Christian background and I'd say (like me) it is a major and difficult shift  to try adopt, adapt or be adopted and adapted into forms of full fledged Hinduism which has very deep spiritual and cultural roots along with societal support in ways of life that are so different from common "western" ways;  and that to me is one of the reasons why so many westerners have adopted what could be called Buddhism largely adapted to western peoples and its society.


Is this your particular perspective and preference? 

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14 hours ago, awaken said:

非二元是練性功的部分,屬於中觀

 

因為只有中觀才能進入深度無雜質的入定態

 

你不練無為法的話,這些理論對你來說永遠是理論,不會成為現實

 

Non-duality is the part of practicing Sin goung, belonging to the middle way

Because only the Middle Way can enter into the deep, impurity-free state of tranquillity

If you don't practice the Law of Inaction, these theories will always be theories to you and will not become reality


For me, wuwei comes after youwei, but I hadn’t thought of wuwei as non-dual.

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8 hours ago, dwai said:

One of my spiritual mentors says, "be like a crocodile...quietly lay in wait, with your mouth open -- for the right prey to drop in for a visit". :D  -- He refuses to discuss non-duality with the layperson and is very selective about who he engages with on these matters. There is certainly value to first assimilating (or marinating in) the realization, before making statements.

 

Is it important to actually know the underlying truth before making an analogy, or is the point of the analogy so profound that it just doesn’t matter if the comparison is just plain wrong? 

 

Crocodiles don't sweat. To keep cool, they open their mouths which is known as "mouth gaping," very similar to panting. They are not displaying aggression when you see them with their mouths wide open! They often sleep with their mouths wide open to release heat.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

 

I think many people go through a phase where after realizing the truth, a desire arises to share the word (myself included) - especially on a spiritually focused forum such as TDB (and it CAN become the zeal of the newly converted). And indeed, while "under the influence", the ability to discern between profundity and annoyance can be lost (both on part of the speaker, and the reader/listener).

 


Many born again Christians go through this phase as well, have they also realised ‘the truth’? 

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1 hour ago, Bindi said:


For me, wuwei comes after youwei, but I hadn’t thought of wuwei as non-dual.

 

是的,無為已經被搬運法給誤導成另外一個現象了

 

事實上,無為從頭到尾都是無為

 

非二元

 

中觀

 

不壓抑,不放縱

 

這樣才能給氣一個空間

 

讓氣自由發展成神

 

道德經處處都在說無為

 

但是搬運法處處都在有為

 

很明顯的違反道家的根本法則

 

然而有覺悟的人,卻非常的少

 

少之又少

 

Yes, Wuwei has been misled into another phenomenon by the transportation method.

In fact, inaction is inaction from beginning to end

non-binary

middle view

Do not suppress, do not indulge

This will give you some space

Let Qi develop freely into Shen

The Tao Te Ching says inaction everywhere

But the transport law is working everywhere

Clearly violates the fundamental laws of Taoism

However, there are very few enlightened people.

very few

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1 minute ago, awaken said:

 

是的,無為已經被搬運法給誤導成另外一個現象了

 

事實上,無為從頭到尾都是無為

 

非二元

 

中觀

 

不壓抑,不放縱

 

這樣才能給氣一個空間

 

讓氣自由發展成神

 

道德經處處都在說無為

 

但是搬運法處處都在有為

 

很明顯的違反道家的根本法則

 

然而有覺悟的人,卻非常的少

 

少之又少

 

Yes, Wuwei has been misled into another phenomenon by the transportation method.

In fact, inaction is inaction from beginning to end

non-binary

middle view

Do not suppress, do not indulge

This will give you some space

Let Qi develop freely into Shen

The Tao Te Ching says inaction everywhere

But the transport law is working everywhere

Clearly violates the fundamental laws of Taoism

However, there are very few enlightened people.

very few


Am I right in thinking you don’t start with cultivating the lower dantian? I don’t follow neidan methods but I did find that I was naturally drawn to start with the lower dantian, and I found it to be necessary and fundamental to first cultivate there. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Bindi said:


Am I right in thinking you don’t start with cultivating the lower dantian? I don’t follow neidan methods but I did find that I was naturally drawn to start with the lower dantian, and I found it to be necessary and fundamental to first cultivate there. 

 

任何氣感的守竅都是誤導,丹道的練習沒有守竅,只有搬運法的練習才會守竅

 

丹道的練習是練氣,練氣並非守竅是唯一

 

我確實不從下丹田下手,我也不從任何一個丹田下手

 

但是我每個丹田都能有氣感,包含如心跳般的脈動,包含內氣的旋轉

 

不管是下丹田,中丹田,或上丹田,或者整個人一組的脈動

 

這些我都發生過

 

因為你的練法有問題,所以你只能體會到下丹田的脈動

 

如果你能走上正確的路

 

你會明白我說的話

 

Any qi sense guarding is misleading. The practice of Dan Dao does not guard the aperture, only the practice of the handling method will guard the aperture.

The practice of Dan Dao is to practice Qi, and Qi practice is not the only one

I really do not start with the lower dantian, nor do I start with any dantian

But each of my dantians can have a sense of qi, including the pulse like a heartbeat, including the rotation of the inner qi

Whether it is the lower dantian, middle dantian, or upper dantian, or the pulse of the whole group

I have all these

Because there is something wrong with your practice, you can only feel the pulse of the lower dantian

if you're on the right path

you will understand what i say

 

當你走在正確的道路上,你不會為了二元與非二元之間的差別產生任何疑惑

 

When you're on the right path, you won't have any doubts about the difference between duality and non-duality

 

而且你會明白下丹田的氣感

 

只是最粗淺的開始

 

並非最高深的結束

 

我的下丹田氣感

 

可以在兩三個呼吸內就自然發生

 

然後幾個呼吸之後,就轉移到下一個現象了

 

我並非沒有下丹田氣感

 

只是那是我練功過程中的一個很小的部分

 

剛開始的部分而已

 

And you will understand the aura of the lower dantian

Just the roughest beginning

not the deepest end

My lower dantian feeling

Occurs naturally within two or three breaths

Then after a few breaths, move on to the next phenomenon

It's not that I don't have a sense of dantian

It's just a small part of my practice

Just the beginning

 

Edited by awaken
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10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Most if not all references to Saiva Siddhanta that I have come across do state it is dualistic, for instance this Diploma in saiva siddhanta course from an Indian university states “Being a dualistic philosophy, the goal of Shaiva Siddhanta is to become an enlightened soul through Lord Shiva's Grace.” https://www.universitydunia.com/courses/arts/p-g-diploma-in-saiva-siddhanta

 

Is this your particular perspective and preference? 

 

Some references do state that, but not the very old and also historically well known Sat-Guru lineage from India that I mentioned earlier which does teach of a major difference, as in a non-dualistic merger with Brahman, thus not a separation of soul after evolution (although the different  and major Saivite sects do have a great deal of common ground as described in their teachings)  

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17 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Perhaps there is a state that you have experienced/do experience that you have named ‘non-dual realization’, but this realization  doesn’t contain the evolved subtle energy body that I have seen glimpses of and am cultivating. Everyone contains the subtle energy body potential, but if that potential is left unfulfilled because of engagement with non-dual philosophy or the non-dual state then to me it is like the non-dualist holds a seed in their hand and thinks they have arrived, all the time never planting the seed and never seeing it’s true potential form revealed. 
 

Not knowing or caring that they hold the seed, and not valuing its potential or realised form, I feel the non-dualist dismisses the pursuit of subtle body development as the lesser path. 
 

One thing I would note though, I think it’s true that many people engaged in subtle energy body development make grave errors in their methods, and in this sense I suspect people would generally be better off doing nothing rather than make errors. 

 

 

Yes, thoughts, ideas and feelings of the View are hollow when not backed up by the state, I gather you have to make some effort to attain that state again and again and not just spout the philosophy. TBH I even question the value of resting in Unbounded Bliss. I have some inkling of the practical healing and knowing power of the evolved energy body, and I wouldn’t trade the evolution of it for a lifetime’s Unbounded Bliss. 

 

 

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and perspective. 

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19 hours ago, Bindi said:

Not knowing or caring that they hold the seed, and not valuing its potential or realised form, I feel the non-dualist dismisses the pursuit of subtle body development as the lesser path. 

 

It is not clear to me what you are referring to when you say non-dual path or philosophy. There is a broad range that can include a traditionally trained Vedantin or Tibetan Buddhist, all the way to self-proclaimed followers who may have sat with Papaji. Even in these groups there are people who study but don't practice, or practice but don't study. Lots of diversity. 

 

The proper method will depend on one's goal, and also one's karmic or energetic make-up and disposition. So if your goal is to become a Buddha, then subtle body practices, per most traditions, are secondary and supportive. But if your goal is to become an energy healer, then subtle body practices will be more relevant than nondual teachings. Of course, not everyone has capacity. Some people suck at subtle body practices. 

 

Of course, there is interplay and constant flux between the two. We are always cultivating a subtle body of one sort or the other, and also either adding to or eliminating ignorance. 

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31 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It is not clear to me what you are referring to when you say non-dual path or philosophy. There is a broad range that can include a traditionally trained Vedantin or Tibetan Buddhist, all the way to self-proclaimed followers who may have sat with Papaji. Even in these groups there are people who study but don't practice, or practice but don't study. Lots of diversity. 

 

 

Broadly I think of a non-dualist as having a purely mental perspective that allows the non-dualist to believe they have arrived at the ‘truth’ which was always present anyway and just needed to be realised, and nothing more needs to be done. Whatever was done up to that point is also deemed irrelevant, because only perspective ever needed to be altered/corrected. 

 

31 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

The proper method will depend on one's goal, and also one's karmic or energetic make-up and disposition. So if your goal is to become a Buddha, then subtle body practices, per most traditions, are secondary and supportive. But if your goal is to become an energy healer, then subtle body practices will be more relevant than nondual teachings.
 

 

I don’t think it’s about alternative goals, I think there are forces within everyone that actively desire development or evolution of the subtle energy body. The philosophy of non-dualism makes people not only deaf to this call, but active deniers of its existence. 

 

31 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Of course, not everyone has capacity. Some people suck at subtle body practices. 

 

 

Unfortunately I think most people suck at subtle body practices, but only because it’s such a difficult and complicated endeavour and most if not all teachers are equally in the dark. 

 

31 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Of course, there is interplay and constant flux between the two. We are always cultivating a subtle body of one sort or the other, and also either adding to or eliminating ignorance. 


Yes I think people are always cultivating a subtle body of one sort or another, but if they’re not aware of the blueprint then it’s more than likely to be a somewhat distorted subtle body which can create difficult to shift karma. 
 

What is ignorance, people not believing what a particular group of people believe? True ignorance to me is not understanding the nature and proper cultivation of the subtle body. 

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16 hours ago, Bindi said:

The philosophy of non-dualism makes people not only deaf to this call, but active deniers of its existence. 

 

I would add the same the other way around: it is never wise to foreclose something. However, I find that one may be inevitably led to the path and practice proper to this life. 

 

Traditionally, there are at least three parts to practice: 1) hearing; 2) contemplating; 3) meditating. The first two typically lead to intellectual understanding, while the third leads to realization. Then the depth and stability of realization is another matter. Some one may have glimpses, while others may be firmly established and act from the truth. 

 

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

What is ignorance, people not believing what a particular group of people believe? True ignorance to me is not understanding the nature and proper cultivation of the subtle body. 

 

Well, again it depends. Typically, ignorance refers to a fundamental ignorance of our true nature and the true nature of the world we experience. But it isn't a matter of belief, but direct realization of the truth. Once you start to see it, it cannot really be denied or argued with, only forgotten. Like gravity. 

 

Just my opinion, mileage may vary and all that. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I would add the same the other way around: it is never wise to foreclose something. However, I find that one may be inevitably led to the path and practice proper to this life. 

 

Traditionally, there are at least three parts to practice: 1) hearing; 2) contemplating; 3) meditating. The first two typically lead to intellectual understanding, while the third leads to realization. Then the depth and stability of realization is another matter. Some one may have glimpses, while others may be firmly established and act from the truth. 

 

Well, again it depends. Typically, ignorance refers to a fundamental ignorance of our true nature and the true nature of the world we experience. But it isn't a matter of belief, but direct realization of the truth. Once you start to see it, it cannot really be denied or argued with, only forgotten. Like gravity. 

 

Just my opinion, mileage may vary and all that. 

 

 

Well said Forest of e...for only our "true nature" which in Hinduism is pointed to as Brahman can fully satisfy and be of Rest and Joy beyond  identification's that are ultimately linked to forms of suffering in one way or another,  for mind and all that it is per realms and human knowledge is not the master but are tools of the master.

Edited by old3bob

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7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I would add the same the other way around: it is never wise to foreclose something. However, I find that one may be inevitably led to the path and practice proper to this life. 

 

 

I suspect all successful non-dualists have foreclosed on their emotional and mental health. 

 

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Traditionally, there are at least three parts to practice: 1) hearing; 2) contemplating; 3) meditating. The first two typically lead to intellectual understanding, while the third leads to realization. Then the depth and stability of realization is another matter. Some one may have glimpses, while others may be firmly established and act from the truth. 

 

 

Well, again it depends. Typically, ignorance refers to a fundamental ignorance of our true nature and the true nature of the world we experience. But it isn't a matter of belief, but direct realization of the truth. Once you start to see it, it cannot really be denied or argued with, only forgotten. Like gravity. 

 

Just my opinion, mileage may vary and all that. 

 


I do agree with non-dualists that I am not my emotions or thoughts, though I value them differently overall to non-dualists, but I disagree about the nature of Self-consciousness beyond emotions and thoughts. You posit the non-dualists concept of what is beyond emotions and thoughts as the ‘Truth’, but forget that this Truth is just one more belief system that has its rewards and costs. Most people within any philosophy or religion believe that they are in possession of the Truth, why is the non-dualist any more correct than any other belief system about their truth, other than their own insistence? 
 

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