Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[forestofemptiness]

59 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

My understanding is that they (the subtle body practices) are completion stage yogas ... there are different mahamudra traditions - some such as so called sutra mahamudra do not rely on tantras (controversially) while others do.  

 

There are completion stages with and without characteristics/marks/attributes. With tends to refer to the subtle body practices, and without to Mahamudra. 

[liminal_luke]

Here's an excerpt from Ethlie Ann Varie's substack, Affection Deficit Disorder...

 

Q: I have a hard time balancing my intuition and my addictive drive. It’s hard to discern is whether that inner voice is my gut or my addiction speaking. How do I begin to trust myself and my gut?

A: From the perspective of 12-step recovery, you’re asking the time-honored question “How do I know when it’s my will and when it’s God’s will?” Because if you get as far as Step 11, you find yourself asking for knowledge of God’s will for you and the power to carry it out. One old-timer gave me a great answer to that: “You know when you get a little thrill thinking about doing something? A little jolt of excitement? Right? Well, that’s not God’s will.”

Her point was the same, I think, as what a therapist once told me: When anything feels urgent, that’s the addiction talking. Always. When you have to call right now. When you need an answer immediately or it’s the end of the world. When it has to be this person or all is lost…. desperation, urgency, impatience, these are functions of our old frenemy, the limbic brain. They are all about gratifying a dopamine/serotonin/oxytocin craving that science has only begun to understand.

..................................................................................................

I love this because I think it speaks to issues around dualism / nondualism at a level I can relate to.  In my mind "addiction" is duality on steroids and "God's will" is action that arises from nondual consciousness.  Whenever something feels desperate, like it's just gotta be this way, I can bet I'm caught up in a dualistic story.  I may not be able to jump from that insight to full nondual realization, but if I can put off insisting that things be my way for a few seconds or minutes or hours then I've made a baby step towards awakening.  Or at least I think so.

 

[Apech]

37 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

There are no moving parts. There are no mistakes to make. In every moment there is the opportunity to be lost in the duality of your personal story, or to keep the mind open and relaxed, participating as a piece in the richness of "wu wei". Dropping down into the "partial" view is fine until it is seen that here is no-one to drop down into anything.

 

 

"I've made a few but then again too few to mention."

                                                                                           - Sensei F. Sinatra

[Apech]

39 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

 

 Ooops                                                         

Edited May 8, 2022 by Apech

[dwai]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

The rainbow body is not something that is built. It represents the dissolution of all karmic traces including the physical body which resolves into the 5 elemental lights. It is one expression of complete enlightenment, seen in the dzogchen teachings of Bön and Buddhism. It is said to predate Buddhism in Tibet.

This aspect of being able to materialize/de-materialize is also referred to in Hindu texts and stories. For example, in the Tripura Rahasya, one sage creates his own universe, and is able to move between that and the “ordinary” universe entirely. But when he invites a king to visit his world, the king doesn’t know the first thing to be done, so the sage pulls the king’s subtle body to his universe, leaving the physical body in a cave for protection, with the commentary that as the yugas change, human being’s abilities are progressively lower. These sages who can create their own universes are called Brahmarishis.
 

Very fascinating stuff…

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

When the Buddha was on the way to Nirvana, Mara is said to have visited him and tried to incentivize him to quit by offering things or by trying to scare him. 
 

A similar process can be seen in the conversation between Nachiketa and Lord Yama in the katha Upanishad, where Yama offers wealth, a very long life, all the pleasures of this realm and higher realms (deva realm), and so on. But young nachiketa’s resolve to find the secret of “immortality” was unshaken, as all those other things would either cease to be, or cease to give pleasure/joy/happiness after a while. 
 

This diamond body/rainbow body thing is very interesting for sure, when I meet someone with this capability, I would love to ask them questions about their motivations  

 

Well, since achieving spiritual immortality is the purpose of attaining the diamond body (or rainbow body), the latter may actually have been right up Nachiteka's alley.

[forestofemptiness]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

Once exercise I learned while working in the Nyingma tradition was to imagine what is seen as being on a screen located at the bridge of the nose and to focus as though that is where the image of reality was seen.

 

This reminds me of using a VR headset. In that case, the image is literally on the bridge of one's nose. What is amazing is how, despite the fact that only two senses are being used (and not even seamlessly) the mind sort of fills in the gaps and creates an interactive environment. If there is an in-game avatar, the mind will begin to map to it. It is interesting to watch the mind's confusion when you step out of it. 

[Bindi]

23 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I like this answer because it reflects my current inner debate.

Thinking on it a bit further, to me, the ‘Doer’ of Atman’s will is a causal force enabled when consciousness enters the central channel. This makes sense of why subtle channel work is necessary, without it there is no enabled doer, even if by some chance one can hear the will of the ‘Atman’.  The Doer force remains trapped within the central channel until it is activated, at which point it can deliberately travel outside the physical body under the direction of the Atman and do all those siddhi things that the rare spiritual giants can do. 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Bindi said:

Thinking on it a bit further, to me, the ‘Doer’ of Atman’s will is a causal force enabled when consciousness enters the central channel. This makes sense of why subtle channel work is necessary, without it there is no enabled doer, even if by some chance one can hear the will of the ‘Atman’.  The Doer force remains trapped within the central channel until it is activated, at which point it can deliberately travel outside the physical body under the direction of the Atman and do all those siddhi things that the rare spiritual giants can do. 

 

I am wondering if the removal of the idea of agency of the Atman is the core reason for the abstraction of the Atman ... which in turn leads to some of assertions of the non-dualist bstds.

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Well, since achieving spiritual immortality is the purpose of attaining the diamond body (or rainbow body), the latter may actually have been right up Nachiteka's alley.

Yeah but that’s not what he was told. Worked out well for him, from what I’ve heard   

 

[dwai]

31 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I am wondering if the removal of the idea of agency of the Atman is the core reason for the abstraction of the Atman ... which in turn leads to some of assertions of the non-dualist bstds.

 

 

Atman HAS no will, no agency in the dualistic sense.
 

Atman however is consciousness, being and completeness itself. You see, mostly people hit up against the one very subtle wall wrt Atman realization. It is that they try to turn Atman into an object. Since Atman is not an object at all, and can never be that, any attempts to ascribe “agency” to it is bound to fail. One can only ascribe anything (as a property) or something if they can observe it. 
 

Look at the logical and syntactical gymnastics one has to go through to try and fit Atman into their pet theory - “Atman consciousness is in the central channel”, “will of the Atman”, “travel outside the body under the direction of Atman to do x,y, or z…”

 

[Mark Foote]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:53 PM, Bindi said:

There is a right thing to do, a right thing to say, a right place to be, etc etc, for one or all parties concerned, at certain moments in time. Atman consciousness is aware of these things, it being a much more expanded consciousness than I have (possibly limitless, I don’t know yet  )and it informs my normal ‘lower’ consciousness of this. It is up to my lower consciousness to hear the echo and enact what atman consciousness urges. So atman consciousness has great knowledge and will but no agency to carry out that knowledge if my lower consciousness doesn’t hear and act. My lower consciousness has agency. This is like alignment with the Dao or with God, not my will but my Higher Will, and my enactment of same. 
 

 

Not necessary to hear and act, "atman consciousness" can move the body without conscious volition.  That "lower consciousness" must act is the veil.

"You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around."

 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, lecture at SF Zen Center, '80's)

The experience is intimately tied to the movement of breath, at least that's how I came to know of it.  I tried to remain mindful of the movement of breath throughout a day, and I only got as far as the afternoon before zazen got me up out of a chair and walked me to the door.  

I played with hypnosis a lot, in high school.  Action of the body without volition is like hypnotic suggestion, except the suggestion is coming from nowhere.  Now I see that there's an inter-relationship between a singular sense of location associated with awareness, a totality of what the senses perceive that extends beyond the limits of consciousness (somehow), and the movement of breath--these things can combine at times to generate a physical action.  

Some of the time, it's an override--stops what I intended to do. Sometimes it starts me to doing something.  Rarely, I am delivered somewhere I need to be, or brought to some action I needed to do, but had no conscious realization of.   

 

For a long time, I thought the object was to stay with action without conscious intention all the time. I believe that's why the experience is sometimes described in Zen literature as ruining one's life.  Now I see that there's a rhythm of mindfulness, and beholding the cessation of (volitive) action in the body is just one of the elements.  
 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you
experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.

 

(Kobun, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48)

 

The trick is this (you all knew there was a trick, didn't you?):

 

It’s definitely a catch-22. It’s necessary to have “freedom of the singular location of self-awareness to move in space” (as I wrote in my last post), in order to generate and sustain an even stretch, but it’s also necessary to have an even stretch in order to experience “freedom of the singular location of self-awareness”.

 

(my One Thing and Another)

 

The even stretch is the distribution of the stretch of ligaments throughout the body.  Ligaments only stretch 7% at most.  It's subtle.  The habitual activity in the movement of breath drops away as the stretch of ligaments becomes the initiator of action, but at some point the stretch can only be rounded by experience of the singularity of the location of awareness and the totality of the senses in the movement of breath.

Happens every night in falling asleep, and I can fall asleep in some weird postures, so it's not like a perfection of posture is necessarily involved in the evenness of stretch.  I'm thinking that it tends toward a recognizable posture, toward recognizable postures, but that's not necessarily an easy thing to realize physically--at least not for me.

Folks like the way I dance, but Zen teachers don't like my posture when I sit.  I hope to say I'm working on it.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

This reminds me of using a VR headset. In that case, the image is literally on the bridge of one's nose. What is amazing is how, despite the fact that only two senses are being used (and not even seamlessly) the mind sort of fills in the gaps and creates an interactive environment. If there is an in-game avatar, the mind will begin to map to it. It is interesting to watch the mind's confusion when you step out of it. 

 

In a sense, we are "all" in game avatars. Reminds me of:

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is

 

Not saying Hoffman is right, but he's got some of it close enough to be recognizable.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by stirling

[Bindi]

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

Atman HAS no will, no agency in the dualistic sense.
 

Atman however is consciousness, being and completeness itself. You see, mostly people hit up against the one very subtle wall wrt Atman realization. It is that they try to turn Atman into an object. Since Atman is not an object at all, and can never be that, any attempts to ascribe “agency” to it is bound to fail. One can only ascribe anything (as a property) or something if they can observe it. 
 

Look at the logical and syntactical gymnastics one has to go through to try and fit Atman into their pet theory - “Atman consciousness is in the central channel”, “will of the Atman”, “travel outside the body under the direction of Atman to do x,y, or z…”

 

Maybe I should stick to the notion of ‘The Father’ who wills, as in ‘Thy [the father’s] will be done’. The ‘God’ of Jesus did have will, and it was Jesus's role to establish that will on earth, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” 

This is not the ultimately impersonal Brahman but the interested God who heals and loves. 
 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Bindi

[steve]

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

You see, mostly people hit up against the one very subtle wall wrt Atman realization. It is that they try to turn Atman into an object.

 

 

How can we not after a lifetime of being a subject? Everything we can name must be an object, it is inherent in language which is the substrate of thought. I’ve come to believe this is an important reason why emptiness is so heavily emphasized in Buddhism. 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Atman HAS no will, no agency in the dualistic sense.
 

Atman however is consciousness, being and completeness itself. You see, mostly people hit up against the one very subtle wall wrt Atman realization. It is that they try to turn Atman into an object. Since Atman is not an object at all, and can never be that, any attempts to ascribe “agency” to it is bound to fail. One can only ascribe anything (as a property) or something if they can observe it. 
 

Look at the logical and syntactical gymnastics one has to go through to try and fit Atman into their pet theory - “Atman consciousness is in the central channel”, “will of the Atman”, “travel outside the body under the direction of Atman to do x,y, or z…”

 

Well thank you for your pronouncement but fact it is objects that have no agency -  for instance ‘I throw the ball’ -  I as the subject have agency while the object, the ball does not.

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Apech

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, Apech said:

Well thank you for your pronouncement but fact it is objects that have no agency -  for instance ‘I throw the ball’ -  I as the subject have agency while the object, the ball does not.

 

In this conversation when you read my words, I become the object. When I read your words, you become the object. Object doesn’t necessarily mean things like “rocks”, “balls” etc. Even a thought in your mind is an object.  So, that is the context in which I use the term “object”. We have to dig a bit deeper than the mere surface of subject-object duality….

[dwai]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

 

How can we not after a lifetime of being a subject? Everything we can name must be an object, it is inherent in language which is the substrate of thought. I’ve come to believe this is an important reason why emptiness is so heavily emphasized in Buddhism. 

Btw the thrill of some more bums bitin’ the nondualist dust is palpable right now. Whoever has followed this conversation to this point but hasn’t yet realized their true nature — “all you have to do is turn around and look at your face before you were born!” 

[Michael Sternbach]

Dwai,

 

Would you agree that Atman has perception?

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Dwai,

 

Would you agree that Atman has perception?

No. Perception is the domain of the mind. 

[steve]

It’s simply not accessible, until it is…

Self-secret,

That’s why the Tibetans finally decided to teach it publicly.

And that’s not a bad thing, read UG Krishnamurti. We each have to follow our path, no other path will do.

 

I’m reading a book, very slowly, that I think would be a wonderful guide and support for anyone interested and attracted to Bön non-dual teachings:

 

Living Wisdom, a collection of teachings on dzogchen by Lungtok Tenpai Nyima. 

 

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Would you agree that Atman has perception?

 

I'm not Dwai, obviously but I think it is worth dialoguing: There is nothing to perceive something else. Being is perceiving. 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Btw the thrill of some more bums bitin’ the nondualist dust is palpable right now. Whoever has followed this conversation to this point but hasn’t yet realized their true nature — “all you have to do is turn around and look at your face before you were born!” 

 

But who is there to get thrilled, and what is there to get thrilled about, if no one exists and nothing exists, and since it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or doesn't think or knows or doesn't know anyway, because thinking and knowing are so transitory and not it, and in reality its just  the imaginary us having an imaginary conversation anyway. 

[Bindi]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:57 AM, stirling said:

Bindi - you seem very convinced. Do you know a teacher/s with first-hand personal experience that would support your theory?
 

 

No, it’s just me, what can I say, my spidey senses are just tingling. 

 

Quote

Maybe they would be happy to share how experiencing is for them now or what the journey to this knowing is like? How about some more reading material with more detail to support the theory you posit? This is not a trap. I'm curious. 

You could start with looking at the numbers of people who are claiming to be ‘awakened’ so quickly and easily and wonder why millions of people are now suddenly able to achieve what countless dedicated aspirants have failed to achieve for Millenia, and this despite the nondually awakened’s glaring lack of Siddhis. Sometimes things that are too easy to accomplish aren’t actually worth accomplishing, because they’re also Neti Neti. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Bindi

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

if no one exists and nothing exists

And then there were none... Indeed an interesting turn of events: first: no-second (nondual), second: none. where did the one go? Feels like 'the ending of time' 

Spoiler

Title of some maybe related debates by Jiddu Krishnamurti and David Bohm. Readable intellectually as well as with experience, I guess.

and existence.

Spoiler

Why then is there still perception of thrilled unrest inside me? 😼 Annoying.