TaoistNoodle

Looking for wisdom on semen retention

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So a little over a year ago now I had come across Mantak Chia's book for sexual cultivation. I was very excited to figure out how to send the energy up the spine and preserve my jing. It's been an interesting journey and its honestly been quite hard for me to cultivate this. At times I experienced extreme fatigue, depression, zits along my spine, etc. After a while it started to get easier though. And I have gained a lot of strength and limberness along my spine during this time. So here is what I am still struggling with now:

It seems the more I do 'jing excercises' and send energy up the spine, the greater urge I have to ejaculate. I have tried to force my body not to ejaculate while I am doing lots of 'jing exercises', but this will lead to chronic fatigue, numbness of emotions, and literally waking up in middle of night with strong urge to masturbate and ejaculate. I listen to my body when I get to this point and I feel much better after release. To me, it seems overdoing 'jing exercises' (depending on your cultivation) causes the Jing to become toxic or overloaded with 'negative energy' and then body wants to release. I have currently found a happy medium where I don't do much of these 'jing exercises' and I ejaculate about once a week with my partner. I mostly do other meditations and Qi Gong and purposely avoid doing any pelvic floor exercises. But I would love to be able to cultivate my Jing as much as I want and not have a strong urge to ejaculate.

So my question would be is there any other way to ground this energy when I feel this way? I literally start to get negative symptoms if I don't ejaculate in these scenarios, but would much preferably find a different way and save my energies. I also think I may have been overdoing it for my level of cultivation. I would sometimes keep my pelvic floor engaged for several hours.(I wonder if the goal to always have the pelvic floor engaged and be constantly sending up energy?) Doing it this much was be very interesting because when I would do it this much I would sometimes feel like I am on a mushroom trip. Trees starting to look holographic and feel very connected to nature. And what's great is that even when I am not doing the exercises now my visuals are much enhanced. But, asides from the cool visuals, I would start to feel worse and worse the longer I would do this.

thanks for any wisdom you throw my way :)

 

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Craving for anything including sexuality comes from scarcity of energy. You are effeminizing the energy by sending your energy upwards. Even the Kundalini path, at first it comes down primarily then it goes up, to come back down to the heart.

 

Of course you visuals would be enhanced if you send energy up...They aren't enhanced anyway, you are on adrenaline.

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giphy.gif

 

Mantak Chia :rolleyes: Possibly the biggest fraud in the Daoist scene. I hope people here with more knowledge and eloquence can convince you to immediately stop all 'practices' coming from him... Before you seriously harm yourself. What you're experiencing currently is just the normal result of following his fraudulent, modernized, 'sex-sells' bullshit. People come to this forum and to genuine teachers all the time for help, because of how harmful his garbage is.

Best of luck in regaining your health and well-being!

Edit: PS: I was bamboozled just like you in the beginning btw., no real shame in it I'd say. Discernment is at the same time one of the most important and most difficult qualities to develop and you need it right off the bat already, when choosing what tradition to practice in.

Edited by Piyadasi
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Ehmmm... 

 

That's a nice collection of unwanted signs. 

 

The problem with Chia's exercises is that they program the bodymind for sexual action, followed by a behavioural inhibition. That means one will have an activation of energetics but stops the healthy release (proper yin yang dynamics). The leftovers of that activated energy, you might experience as a reward, or as more energy. 

 

You can build up that and more with non-sexual methods, which are less likely to do harm. They might take more effort in the beginning, but it is worth it. 

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~ Moderator Message ~

 

To the OP -

The Men's sub-forum in the Grotto is the ideal place for discussions related to male sexual cultivation and semen retention. 

While this sort of discussion is certainly permitted in the general forum, you may find more specific and open discussion there.

Please let me know if you would like me to move this thread to the Men's forum and give you access.

 

Thanks

 

 

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Feel free to move the thread, steve.

First off thanks for all the replies. Love that this is such an active forum. I found some great takeaways from the Healing Tao Cautions thread. I should be doing more lower Dan Tian work to build energy. I do find the ubiquitous Mantak Chia bashing interesting. I am open to any ideas though as long as they are explained well. Also curious who are the forums beloved guru(s)?

 

4 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Craving for anything including sexuality comes from scarcity of energy. You are effeminizing the energy by sending your energy upwards. Even the Kundalini path, at first it comes down primarily then it goes up, to come back down to the heart.

 

Of course you visuals would be enhanced if you send energy up...They aren't enhanced anyway, you are on adrenaline.


So do you recommended not to send energy up the spine?  And by Effeminizing do you mean overly polarized towards yin? Is there a way to remasculinize the energy? 

 

 

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Ehmmm... 

 

That's a nice collection of unwanted signs. 

 

The problem with Chia's exercises is that they program the bodymind for sexual action, followed by a behavioural inhibition. That means one will have an activation of energetics but stops the healthy release (proper yin yang dynamics). The leftovers of that activated energy, you might experience as a reward, or as more energy. 

 

You can build up that and more with non-sexual methods, which are less likely to do harm. They might take more effort in the beginning, but it is worth it. 


By Chia's exercises are you referring to sex without ejaculation? How do they program the mind for sexual action?(if its referring to sex without ejaculation I can see how). How can i achieve the same with non-sexual methods












 

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3 hours ago, steve said:

~ Moderator Message ~

 

To the OP -

The Men's sub-forum in the Grotto is the ideal place for discussions related to male sexual cultivation and semen retention. 

While this sort of discussion is certainly permitted in the general forum, you may find more specific and open discussion there.

Please let me know if you would like me to move this thread to the Men's forum and give you access.

 

Thanks

 

 


The issue with immediately moving this into that section is that it legitimises a practice very unhelpful to the vast majority of people.

 

 @TaoistNoodle asks a specific question (effectively - ‘how do I do Chia’s system without getting the outcomes of Chia’s system?’)

 

But the answer that would actually help him is not within the ‘male sexual cultivation’ arena.

 

So I appreciate the flexibility in considering keeping this in the main discussion forum - as the visibility in the main forum will potentially help others who come with similar questions.

Edited by freeform
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11 minutes ago, TaoistNoodle said:

 

I do find the ubiquitous Mantak Chia bashing interesting. 

You can also see that other teachers who has made their stuff public has got a fair amount of bashing. But Chia is special. 

 

I'll come back later with the question directed at me, shall feed the kids now 😁

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34 minutes ago, TaoistNoodle said:

I do find the ubiquitous Mantak Chia bashing interesting.


It comes from well over a decade of people coming to this forum for help after doing great damage to themselves with Chia’s system. 
 

The sad truth is that Chia’s system isn’t really a system. It’s a deeply misunderstood re-interpretation of the writings about other, older systems. It’s like the broken telephone game. What you’re reading in Chia’s books has gone through the meat grinder of misunderstanding and misinterpretation and several times.

 

It’s flawed at its very core - so to try to answer ‘what’s wrong with it’ is difficult - because the real answer is ‘well - everything’.

 

its like - what’s wrong with this sign?

 

The words makes sense and are in English and they have meaning - but in combination and within the context, nothing about them is right.

translation-fails.jpg

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2 hours ago, freeform said:


The issue with immediately moving this into that section is that it legitimises a practice very unhelpful to the vast majority of people.

 

 @TaoistNoodle

That was my suggestion, based on the thread title and that it would be easier to find by others that search for answers regarding this specific issue. Out here, it will get lost among other threads. 

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2 hours ago, TaoistNoodle said:

 

By Chia's exercises are you referring to sex without ejaculation?

Yes, since you mentioned semen retention. My comment was not directed to any other exercise in the UT system. 

Quote

How do they program the mind for sexual action?(if its referring to sex without ejaculation I can see how). 

It's complicated. If you are really interested, theories about active inference and prediction will give you a better background. 

 

 

Quote

How can i achieve the same with non-sexual methods
 

Actually, the question is "how can I achieve more with non-sexual methods?" 

 

As you can see here, everybody likes their own system, and many people with more traditional ortodox training see faults with the entire structure of the UT. 

I could tell you how many of the methods in that system is almost similar, in some way, with other methods. Unfortunately, there are also differences that seems to be harmful for others. But really, it takes too long to put in writing and I would have to tell way too much about my system, so I will not go that way. 

 

I do have some experience of Chia's system and learning by his books and videos (ahh, the 90-ties), so I am not just flapping my ovula in the wind here. BTDT so to speak. 😁 

 

What I would recommend is a system that is less genital, uses less visualisation, and have a better reputation. The general build-up would be the similar, begin with moving and standing practices, add seated at a later stage. 

 

With a good system, you would calm your system, and build up things from the core out. 

 

But I will not recommend any system or teacher, everybody has to find where they fit in. 

 

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I rarely get involved in these 'semen threads' .  But I have practised a form of western tantra .

 

I want to ask you guys a question regarding the eastern practice (which i dont agree with... but anyway ) ;

 

with this idea of 'loosing jin from ejac '  does that apply to orgasm as well ?  

 

And if not, and you ascribe to this  'jin ejac loss'  idea , why not have sex with orgasm and no ejaculation ?

 

 

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The sex thing, and the different options while cultivating. 

 

If I get it right, there are some options to choose from. 

 

One can have sex. That can be healthy, and a way to cultivate ones relationship. It can also be a way to cultivate desire. 

 

One can be celibate. If one has practices that helps with handling this, one can transform desires, prevent leakage (which is not ejaculation), and ones cultivation might be powered by this. 

If one does not have these practices, or the inclination toward this path, it might lead to frustration and deviations. 

 

One can manipulate ones sexual life. That might be in the form of making sex into a spiritual practice (see Silburn:Kundalini - Energy of the depths for an example). That is mostly considered to be difficult to succed with. 

Or, one can retain semen. Some think this is a really good idea (the piggy bank theory), some calls this a deviation. 

 

I'm sure there are other ways as well, since sex is a central thing for humans. 

 

Edit: If one is most concerned about jing loss, there are other lifestyle options to choose from:

Eating healthy, good sleeping habits, moderate exercise routine, stuff like that. 

 

Sex easily becomes so loaded with cultural ideas, so it might be better (from the conserving/replenishing post natal jing position) to look at the other options first. 

Edited by Cleansox
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10 hours ago, Nungali said:

with this idea of 'loosing jin from ejac '  does that apply to orgasm as well ?


Yes - both.

 

Chia says ejaculation only. (The truth would be inconvenient for book sales)

 

The most damaging thing though is this pushing of sexualised Qi up to the head and heart. This creates a deviation called Poison Fire.


The damage starts from the ‘heat’ being pushed up to the heart and head (they need to be cooled - not heated for balance). Over time this causes mental issues - like over the top emotional reactivity or paranoia.


One of Chia’s top teachers was arrested after breaking into his own car at a police impound lot, retrieving a samurai sword and then going to a strip club to threaten a bouncer that had stopped him touching the strippers.

 

The full name of the deviation is something like ‘Poison Fire Taints the Heart’... this is when Qi that has been charged with lust from the ‘base’ water of the body, is pushed up and then taints the purity of the heart.


This is followed by a constant amping up of sexual deviancy... the feelings of love and joy become tainted by lust - so now one can only get pleasure from life through acting out of lusty desires.

 

This basically means an obsession with sex overtakes ones life. Very often this idea of lust tainting something pure is acted out through various deviant behaviours. Think ‘spiritual’ sex cults, dominating people, abusing minors etc.

 

This is quite a common and known issue in Asia. It’s happened obviously with Chia’s material - but there have been many others who developed ‘systems’ that can get them laid.


There are even some pretty old texts with similar methods that are known among the internal arts community to be early deviant paths - or even written for titillation rather than actual practice. Modern teachers take this stuff and show it as evidence that their ‘spiritual bj practice’ is most definitely legit...

 

Then there’s Chia’s ‘Million Dollar Point’ - basically pressing hard on the tubes at the perineum that would normally lead sperm out - but by pressing and shutting this tube, it leads the sperm into the bladder at the moment of ejaculation.

 

A few years of daily use of this point can irreversibly damage ones piping. After some time, sperm just starts to naturally enter the bladder - whether one is pressing the point or even engaging in sexual activity...

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1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

mental issues - like over the top emotional reactivity or paranoia.

= "I have more energy"

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40 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

= "I have more energy"


Yup - exactly.

 

its also true that if a younger man stops all sexual release, then there’s an initial buildup of hormones. So people can feel a little more strong and motivated for a period.

 

But as the heat gets to your head you can get other experiences such as hallucinations or changes in perception.


Some people construe this to mean that there’s a special spiritual process happening.

 

Long term, people start to get a sort of mental fog and dullness  to their thinking... this can also be misconstrued as something positive - because when you try to meditate, there’s not much distinct content - just a vague, dreamy trance state with colours and stuff.


In reality this all just basic brain damage - or more accurately a disturbed mental process (Generally  there’s apparently no obvious physical damage of brain tissue in MRI scans - like you’d get from a stroke or a major car accident)

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2 hours ago, freeform said:


Yup - exactly.

 

its also true that if a younger man stops all sexual release, then there’s an initial buildup of hormones. So people can feel a little more strong and motivated for a period.

 

But as the heat gets to your head you can get other experiences such as hallucinations or changes in perception.


Some people construe this to mean that there’s a special spiritual process happening.

 

Long term, people start to get a sort of mental fog and dullness  to their thinking... this can also be misconstrued as something positive - because when you try to meditate, there’s not much distinct content - just a vague, dreamy trance state with colours and stuff.


In reality this all just basic brain damage - or more accurately a disturbed mental process (Generally  there’s apparently no obvious physical damage of brain tissue in MRI scans - like you’d get from a stroke or a major car accident)

Hey, I dont understand a lot about taoist concepts but semen retention do help a lot with my anxiety and OCD . Im overly emotional when Im masturbating frequently. Doenst this have to do about how much do you think about sex when not masturbating, I mean, not looking at porn or lustfully at girls or pictures.

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On 9/12/2020 at 1:07 AM, TaoistNoodle said:

So a little over a year ago now I had come across Mantak Chia's book for sexual cultivation. I was very excited to figure out how to send the energy up the spine and preserve my jing. It's been an interesting journey and its honestly been quite hard for me to cultivate this. At times I experienced extreme fatigue, depression, zits along my spine, etc. After a while it started to get easier though. And I have gained a lot of strength and limberness along my spine during this time. So here is what I am still struggling with now:

It seems the more I do 'jing excercises' and send energy up the spine, the greater urge I have to ejaculate. I have tried to force my body not to ejaculate while I am doing lots of 'jing exercises', but this will lead to chronic fatigue, numbness of emotions, and literally waking up in middle of night with strong urge to masturbate and ejaculate. I listen to my body when I get to this point and I feel much better after release. To me, it seems overdoing 'jing exercises' (depending on your cultivation) causes the Jing to become toxic or overloaded with 'negative energy' and then body wants to release. I have currently found a happy medium where I don't do much of these 'jing exercises' and I ejaculate about once a week with my partner. I mostly do other meditations and Qi Gong and purposely avoid doing any pelvic floor exercises. But I would love to be able to cultivate my Jing as much as I want and not have a strong urge to ejaculate.

So my question would be is there any other way to ground this energy when I feel this way? I literally start to get negative symptoms if I don't ejaculate in these scenarios, but would much preferably find a different way and save my energies. I also think I may have been overdoing it for my level of cultivation. I would sometimes keep my pelvic floor engaged for several hours.(I wonder if the goal to always have the pelvic floor engaged and be constantly sending up energy?) Doing it this much was be very interesting because when I would do it this much I would sometimes feel like I am on a mushroom trip. Trees starting to look holographic and feel very connected to nature. And what's great is that even when I am not doing the exercises now my visuals are much enhanced. But, asides from the cool visuals, I would start to feel worse and worse the longer I would do this.

thanks for any wisdom you throw my way :)

 

" I have currently found a happy medium where I don't do much of these 'jing exercises' and I ejaculate about once a week with my partner."

A happy medium speaks of balance:

Does the current arrangement, with your partner, make them happy?  Does making them happy, make you happy? Keep things simple when it comes to this particular subject.

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water flows downhill tzujan... of itself.

 

no training

no skill set

no forcing

no teacher

no method

no mind

 

water flows downhill naturally

energy flows in response to the patternsa bout it within our own awareness and body in similar fashion, *(in my experience)

 

so we too (body and mind) are natural processes of flow...  most of my personal process has been about the exact opposite of Chia's approach... for me it's about unfolding blockages, allowing natural flow and release (in though, emotion and body) not stifling any aspects of natural flow.

 

Too much interference has always triggered alarm bells within my own process, no matter how appealing the idea may seem, the experience of Chia comes to mind.  I read one of his books and the ideas seemed to hold promise, the function of them, was almost immediately setting of warning signals and I rapidly released them. 

 

allow nature to be as it is, respond to your nature by your nature within nature and be... natural.  The path directs itself... like water finding the natural path from mountain top to sea.  the way walks itself in and through our open participation.

 

The Path and The Pathmaker are seem to me, one process...

Edited by silent thunder
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7 hours ago, Cleansox said:
9 hours ago, freeform said:

 

mental issues - like over the top emotional reactivity or paranoia.

= "I have more energy"

Really good point.

 

The conflation of 'sensations with progress' in internal arts seems pernicious and is why perhaps, it can be more difficult to navigate aspects of the process without an in person teacher or an already established foundation of awareness of subtle internal reactionary processes... at least in certain stages... (opinion, not claiming anything).

 

New, or intense sensations occur and I too had a tendency to conflate that with 'progress', more sensation=more progress...

For a time i sought to recreate this perpetually, when what was occuring for me was a temporary recalibrating process of old modalities of the body.

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4 hours ago, Scholar said:

Im overly emotional when Im masturbating frequently.


Always best to practice moderation.

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24 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

The conflation of 'sensations with progress' in internal arts seems pernicious and is why perhaps, it can be more difficult to navigate aspects of the process without an in person teacher


Yes precisely - that’s why I always urge people against ‘self-initiated’ practice without a teacher or at least a concrete, traditional process.

 

28 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

or an already established foundation of awareness of subtle internal reactionary processes... at least in certain stages...


Even this can be problematic - because one’s inner awareness (even if accurate) isn’t able to understand the full causal chain of a process...

 

For example a tendency for an ever expanding openness internally is recognised by most practitioners is highly beneficial.
 

However at a certain point a tight compaction and very uncomfortable squeezing is also a necessary stage of the process. But often it feels very negative, and if you’re not aware of what’s going on, you might halt the process and cut short your progress.

 

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10 minutes ago, freeform said:


Yes precisely - that’s why I always urge people against ‘self-initiated’ practice without a teacher or at least a concrete, traditional process.

 


Even this can be problematic - because one’s inner awareness (even if accurate) isn’t able to understand the full causal chain of a process...

 

For example a tendency for an ever expanding openness internally is recognised by most practitioners is highly beneficial.
 

However at a certain point a tight compaction and very uncomfortable squeezing is also a necessary stage of the process. But often it feels very negative, and if you’re not aware of what’s going on, you might halt the process and cut short your progress.

 

*bow*  extremely good point. 

 

When the student takes up the Master's tools prematurely....

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10 hours ago, freeform said:


Yes - both.

 

Chia says ejaculation only. (The truth would be inconvenient for book sales)

 

The most damaging thing though is this pushing of sexualised Qi up to the head and heart. This creates a deviation called Poison Fire.


The damage starts from the ‘heat’ being pushed up to the heart and head (they need to be cooled - not heated for balance). Over time this causes mental issues - like over the top emotional reactivity or paranoia.


One of Chia’s top teachers was arrested after breaking into his own car at a police impound lot, retrieving a samurai sword and then going to a strip club to threaten a bouncer that had stopped him touching the strippers.

 

The full name of the deviation is something like ‘Poison Fire Taints the Heart’... this is when Qi that has been charged with lust from the ‘base’ water of the body, is pushed up and then taints the purity of the heart.


This is followed by a constant amping up of sexual deviancy... the feelings of love and joy become tainted by lust - so now one can only get pleasure from life through acting out of lusty desires.

 

This basically means an obsession with sex overtakes ones life. Very often this idea of lust tainting something pure is acted out through various deviant behaviours. Think ‘spiritual’ sex cults, dominating people, abusing minors etc.

 

This is quite a common and known issue in Asia. It’s happened obviously with Chia’s material - but there have been many others who developed ‘systems’ that can get them laid.


There are even some pretty old texts with similar methods that are known among the internal arts community to be early deviant paths - or even written for titillation rather than actual practice. Modern teachers take this stuff and show it as evidence that their ‘spiritual bj practice’ is most definitely legit...

 

Then there’s Chia’s ‘Million Dollar Point’ - basically pressing hard on the tubes at the perineum that would normally lead sperm out - but by pressing and shutting this tube, it leads the sperm into the bladder at the moment of ejaculation.

 

A few years of daily use of this point can irreversibly damage ones piping. After some time, sperm just starts to naturally enter the bladder - whether one is pressing the point or even engaging in sexual activity...

 

7 hours ago, freeform said:


Yup - exactly.

 

its also true that if a younger man stops all sexual release, then there’s an initial buildup of hormones. So people can feel a little more strong and motivated for a period.

 

But as the heat gets to your head you can get other experiences such as hallucinations or changes in perception.


Some people construe this to mean that there’s a special spiritual process happening.

 

Long term, people start to get a sort of mental fog and dullness  to their thinking... this can also be misconstrued as something positive - because when you try to meditate, there’s not much distinct content - just a vague, dreamy trance state with colours and stuff.


In reality this all just basic brain damage - or more accurately a disturbed mental process (Generally  there’s apparently no obvious physical damage of brain tissue in MRI scans - like you’d get from a stroke or a major car accident)


I can definitively see how this has been the case for some people I have seen in online forums. And many members of a certain tantra organisation that has a lot of overlap with parts of my social circle.

And when I have played around with this it has seemed to me that when I have had sex that is more lustful and explosive and desire driven and orgasms of the more conventional kind, it would lead down such route if I kept retaining the leftover energy.

However, it does not at all seem to fit with those who practice Karezza. Those who practice Karezza generally say they practice pre orgasmic sex. They stay FAR away from the point of no return. So if ejaculation happens at  arousal level 100 and people can have multiple orgasms at 95 they stay more around 80. And they always put connection above arousal. So if they feel like sexual energy becomes more central then connection/heart then they back of a bit and reconnect until this balance is correct again. They DO have what can be called orgasms in the form of what is often called valley orgasms. But they stay far away from the more explosive conventional (yang) orgasm. Not only the man but also the woman stay away from conventional explosive orgasms and stay either in pre orgasmic bliss or have valley orgasms. Which seems to differ from Taoist advice where womens orgasms are seen as less problematic (maybe that is just from Chia? I don't know but I see it repeated so often by qigong people and "Taoist" sex books).

What couples tend to very consistently report is not only more energy and the types of benefits typically claimed for semen retention. But they also claim to experience a drastic drops in addictions of all kind. Porn addiction, sex addiction, chocolate, nicotine, social media, anything that stimulates dopamine type addictions. They also claim to loose interest in kinds of various kinds. And they claim that where sexual attraction and love often dies out for couples after a few years those who practice karezza experience a stable and consistent sexual attraction and a stable and consistent love for years and years. The love they feel tend to be more like the companionate love of long lasting couples (more endorfin and oxytocin based I believe) and less of the early romantic infatuation type love (more amphetamine and dopamin based as far as I understand). The difference between most couples and Karezza couples is that their version of the more companionate love feels as strong and attractive as most peoples early romantic infatuation based love. And unlike couples who love each other after many years but have lost the spark and the sexual attraction their love still has strong sexual desire coupled in. 

I read through years and years of posts in the Karezza forum at reuniting.info because I found this so interesting. And it really does seem that those who practice this way get these results with a high degree of consistency.

It looks to me that the type of damaging results from semen retention you describe comes more from have conventional orgasms and keeping this energy that from having sex and keeping the energy. It probably depends more on how on has sex. I can't recall a single instance of anyone in the Karezza forum reporting things like what you warn about but I can see it being highly prevalent in certain tantra groups that practice forms of sex that goes much closer to the 95 arousal level and have explosive orgasms and retain. 

This all matches my personal but limited experience. When I have experienced with "tantric" type sex it eventually felt like staying in the cooler less striving less lust driven zone and putting connection above sexual desire was the way to go and led to deeper sexual satisfaction and much more powerful states tend letting lust take over and run the show. And the after effects of retaining with more explosive sex seemed destabilising (though sort of high energy) while the after effects of the cooler more connected karezza like effects seem to provide all the promised benefits of retaining and none of the dangerous downsides. I haven't practiced this and retained over long periods of time though.





 

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