forestofemptiness

Spontaneous Qigong (Zifa Gong) 自发功

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I wanted to solicit thoughts on spontaneous qigong. My initial journey into tai chi and qigong involved the teachings of Sifu Wong Kiew Kit (WKK) some time ago. Per WKK, spontaneous qigong was the source of one's power. He taught that qi has a natural intelligence and it would seek out and fix your problems. I note that WKK taught primarily for health/martial arts. The spontaneous movements were more of an allowing --- I never felt strongly controlled by them although the more I relaxed into them, the stronger they got. 

 

When I was on an intense Theravada retreat some time later, I began to manifest spontaneous movements. I asked the teacher about it, Bhante Rahula, who told me not to give in to the movements but just keep doing the practice (Vipassana). I intentionally stopped the movements. I felt a strange sort of pressure building, and then a fabulous internal display of fireworks occurred as things started to open inside, including my legs. This permanently changed how much pain I felt while sitting. These movements were very strong--- while I could intentionally prevent them, it felt like some thing else was controlling my body. 

 

My anecdotal, uneducated theory is that the same energies can be externally expressed in spontaneous movements, or internally by opening channels and so on. If so, then it seems that spontaneous qigong might be good for martial arts (because it is about expressing) but not necessarily good for spiritual practices (which tend to use energy for more internal uses). I have not had a lot of teachings on this, so I thought I would see if anyone here had some thoughts and comments. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I wanted to solicit thoughts on spontaneous qigong. My initial journey into tai chi and qigong involved the teachings of Sifu Wong Kiew Kit (WKK) some time ago. Per WKK, spontaneous qigong was the source of one's power. He taught that qi has a natural intelligence and it would seek out and fix your problems. I note that WKK taught primarily for health/martial arts. The spontaneous movements were more of an allowing --- I never felt strongly controlled by them although the more I relaxed into them, the stronger they got. 

 

When I was on an intense Theravada retreat some time later, I began to manifest spontaneous movements. I asked the teacher about it, Bhante Rahula, who told me not to give in to the movements but just keep doing the practice (Vipassana). I intentionally stopped the movements. I felt a strange sort of pressure building, and then a fabulous internal display of fireworks occurred as things started to open inside, including my legs. This permanently changed how much pain I felt while sitting. These movements were very strong--- while I could intentionally prevent them, it felt like some thing else was controlling my body. 

 

My anecdotal, uneducated theory is that the same energies can be externally expressed in spontaneous movements, or internally by opening channels and so on. If so, then it seems that spontaneous qigong might be good for martial arts (because it is about expressing) but not necessarily good for spiritual practices (which tend to use energy for more internal uses). I have not had a lot of teachings on this, so I thought I would see if anyone here had some thoughts and comments. 

 

 

 

Damo Mitchell recommends it for a few years, but not initially or immediately. In my own experience, this is true, and after channels are opened through the practice (ren mai and du mai especially), it is better to switch to another practice with more focus, which in my case was going from spontaneous to sleeping form and Flying Phoenix. 

 

There are a lot of issues with SW and WKK with how he presses for spontaneous, and one thread here even gave away the form for free, but that creates a series of qi deviations, as spontaneous was given to me under intense supervision for several years. 

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59 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

When I was on an intense Theravada retreat some time later, I began to manifest spontaneous movements. I asked the teacher about it, Bhante Rahula, who told me not to give in to the movements but just keep doing the practice (Vipassana). I intentionally stopped the movements. I felt a strange sort of pressure building, and then a fabulous internal display of fireworks occurred as things started to open inside, including my legs. This permanently changed how much pain I felt while sitting. These movements were very strong--- while I could intentionally prevent them, it felt like some thing else was controlling my body. 

 

 

The phenomenon you experienced could be a result of spontaneous Chikung or the result of other practices.   Different reasons could contribute to the same phenomenon, individually or collectively.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Papayapple said:

why would spontaneous be harmful in any way? if it's spontaneous, is it not natural?


People with mental illness are at risk for one, and there are many more reasons one should not practice without proper guidance.

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36 minutes ago, Papayapple said:

why would spontaneous be harmful in any way? if it's spontaneous, is it not natural?

 

Because there have been many negative experiences from participants over the years.  

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1 minute ago, forestofemptiness said:

Any insight on the theory behind it, and why it works or it dangerous? 

 

Will respond later. @freeform and @virtue have both mentioned this before. 

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Problems include

- physical injury in personal or group setting

- Chi out of control, Chi used up

- heart, high blood pressure, long term illness not suitable

- psychiatric problems for the weak minded

- psychic problems

- not suitable for self learning

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Zifagong is basically when your Qi mobilises and starts to work through your nervous system (shaking, wild movements etc)... then moves into the more mental and emotional aspects (you'll see crying, laughing noises, speaking etc)

 

The problems with it revolve around two issues.

 

1) It creates a very suggestible state... because it seems magical - and is usually the first experience of Qi for people (and of qi emission and so on) - so inadvertently people treat the teacher - and the process as some sort of divine thing. It also just naturally creates a suggestible state - in that the experience of it can be shaped by the messages a teacher gives. If he says it's the holy ghost working through you, then your internal experience will start to match it - you might even see jesus and angels and start talking in tongues or whatever. It can also be presented as something sexual - and similarly people will experience it as something erotic and orgasmic. It can also be presented as someone doing something to you - which is not completely untrue - but it's a collaboration - like hypnosis is... but it opens up the potential to make the one 'doing it' in a position of a guru or something.

 

2) People get attached. Usually as a result of 1)... If they're told it's the devine working through them... or that it's a very special thing, then they'll get attached and create it within themselves past the point of it being healthy and helpful. The zifagong process is exactly that - a process... it has a start and an end - if you're doing it for 10 years, it means something has gone wrong. What should happen is that eventually the movements get very slow, subtle and undulating... the mind becomes still and then eventually the movements (on the outside) completely stop - and instead the qi starts to move through the channels (instead of the nervous system). People can, in effect, force it to go back and work through the nervous system and drain themselves and create issues.

 

All this being said - it's actually a very powerful, really useful and efficient way to progress in the early to intermediate stages of qigong/neigong. It's also often the first time people realise that 'this stuff is real' - and not just flapping the arms around. It's when people realise that Qi is extremely potent and powerful - it's not the subtle hint of warmth or tingling - it's powerful enough to have you sprinting around and shouting at the top of your lungs when it touches the wood qi for example.

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On 06/05/2020 at 2:59 PM, forestofemptiness said:

My anecdotal, uneducated theory is that the same energies can be externally expressed in spontaneous movements, or internally by opening channels and so on. If so, then it seems that spontaneous qigong might be good for martial arts (because it is about expressing) but not necessarily good for spiritual practices (which tend to use energy for more internal uses). I have not had a lot of teachings on this, so I thought I would see if anyone here had some thoughts and comments.

 

You're right that it can be 'internally expressed' - although it needs to work from 'outside in'... meaning it almost always starts with coarse manic shaking, flailing, screaming and shouting - before eventually, it moves 'inside' still wielding the same level of power - bt internally.

 

I would say it's actually more suited to spiritual practice than to martial arts - as it's an extremely efficient way to remove blockages, soften the body, release traumas and stuck thoughts and emotions before moving deeply into the channel system where it can 'open space' and an internal sensitivity that allows you to be able to absorb your mind into your body (for further internal training, and meditative practice).

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I have been training spontaneous qigong for more than 15 years. It makes my meditation much progress. Not just moving, I can see more different lights inside. For example, star, moon, sun and mandala. I can feel heat, electric, and drumbeats in my body. I can feel my body sleep but inside is awake.

 

Before I training spontaneous qigong, I have seen purple light for many years and I have a lot of feeling in my body. But not progress so much like spontaneous qigong in my meditation.

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1 hour ago, awaken said:

I have been training spontaneous qigong for more than 15 years. It makes my meditation much progress. Not just moving, I can see more different lights inside. For example, star, moon, sun and mandala. I can feel heat, electric, and drumbeats in my body. I can feel my body sleep but inside is awake.

 

Before I training spontaneous qigong, I have seen purple light for many years and I have a lot of feeling in my body. But not progress so much like spontaneous qigong in my meditation.

interesting can you see preheaven energies in the body?

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Preheaven energies shows by some special lights, like moon, mandala.

Yes, sometimes if I train myself very very hard.

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On 5/6/2020 at 6:59 AM, forestofemptiness said:

I wanted to solicit thoughts on spontaneous qigong. My initial journey into tai chi and qigong involved the teachings of Sifu Wong Kiew Kit (WKK) some time ago. Per WKK, spontaneous qigong was the source of one's power. He taught that qi has a natural intelligence and it would seek out and fix your problems. I note that WKK taught primarily for health/martial arts. The spontaneous movements were more of an allowing --- I never felt strongly controlled by them although the more I relaxed into them, the stronger they got. 

 

When I was on an intense Theravada retreat some time later, I began to manifest spontaneous movements. I asked the teacher about it, Bhante Rahula, who told me not to give in to the movements but just keep doing the practice (Vipassana). I intentionally stopped the movements. I felt a strange sort of pressure building, and then a fabulous internal display of fireworks occurred as things started to open inside, including my legs. This permanently changed how much pain I felt while sitting. These movements were very strong--- while I could intentionally prevent them, it felt like some thing else was controlling my body. 

 

My anecdotal, uneducated theory is that the same energies can be externally expressed in spontaneous movements, or internally by opening channels and so on. If so, then it seems that spontaneous qigong might be good for martial arts (because it is about expressing) but not necessarily good for spiritual practices (which tend to use energy for more internal uses). I have not had a lot of teachings on this, so I thought I would see if anyone here had some thoughts and comments. 

 

 

Heyya! Interesting to find your thread right after posting about this subject.

 

I am an instructor under Sifu Wong. You partially correct, but the flowing stillness and standing meditation is just as important as externally expressed movement. You might remember the instruction of gently thinking of the dantian, and then entering into flowing stillness, not thinking of anything or doing anything. Just enjoy the stillness with the qi flowing vigorously internally while externally we are quite still. If this step is skipped or glossed over you wont get as many benefits. Spend as much time in stillness as you do in chi flow and you will get those benefits. If you wish to pursue the practice further give this a try and let me know how it goes. :)  When you add together the externally flowing movements, the flowing stillness, and the standing meditation you will get the spiritual development that you mention.

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On 5/28/2020 at 7:51 AM, Musashi said:

 

I was a student for over 10 years from Sifu Wong, and SW.

I remember you David, we never met, but I saw you on the forum back in the day :)
 

I experienced alot of crazyness, and basically took a huge step back from the school.

However, regardless of what some people say and claim about SW and Sifu Wong; the material works.

 

It is a great way of experiencing 'chi' ; the way Sifu Wong transmits his kungfu is also extremely efficient.

From zero experience to being able to play with whatever object and turn it into a weapon; to almost having
a complete library of responses during combat.

 

I was able to keep my mind fully still after just one regional course. Even just for some seconds at the beginning;
the fact I could experience stillness just for that time, was already remarkable and worth the money of the course.

 

 

haha yeah, agreed 100% with everything.  :) 

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Hi all, I opened up a thread but noone replied so I thought I ask directly those who engage in these practices:

Anyone practices pontaneous/ZifaGong with Music?

What Kind of Music do you "use/recommend"?

Do you focus your choice on spiritual qualities ("aura", "fragrance", "channeling", "peacefulness" ....) activating rhythm, relaxing mood, enhancing fluidity or hat else?

Thanks

(sorry to bother you on several Threads, will be done soon ;-)

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The only spontaneous gi gung I have experience with is Max Christensons Kunlun.  I didn't have any problems with it, but the being open mind & body, going with the flow, could possibly make one vulnerable to.. spirits.  In this case I think it was spidery things?  I don't think it hit most people, maybe it opens up the subconscious to archetypes or it could be getting attention from lineage spirits who may or may not like you. 

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19 hours ago, thelerner said:

maybe it opens up the subconscious to archetypes


From my understanding that’s very much closer to being the truth.

 

19 hours ago, thelerner said:

or it could be getting attention from lineage spirits who may or may not like you.


Not likely... for a higher being to be interested in your spontaneous movements would be akin to you taking an interested in one particular ant’s pooping habits :) (but never say never I guess!)

 

The ZFG process is no more spiritual or mystical than sneezing or pooping - I admit it can be somewhat interesting to see what you excrete from the deeper parts of your subconscious.
 

And just as you might have a quick look in your tissue to see what you just sneezed up. But then it wouldn’t be recommended to go delving through the excretions and putting too much undue attention and interest into it.

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24 minutes ago, freeform said:

Not likely... for a higher being to be interested in your spontaneous movements would be akin to you taking an interested in one particular ant’s pooping habits :) (but never say never I guess!)

 

The ZFG process is no more spiritual or mystical than sneezing or pooping - I admit it can be somewhat interesting to see what you excrete from the deeper parts of your subconscious.

 

 

The higher being theory is correct.  But we never know what other spirits already lurking around @thelerner.   The normal thinking is that he may have wronged somebody, this life or previous.  But his Yang's is so strong that he is immune now.  Opening a channel could be a problem for some people.

 

ZFG is no more spiritual, indeed, it is what the others choose to interpret those kinds of reactions that is a problem.

 

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Posted (edited)

When I ceased formal and rigid praxis, my practicing didn't end, it morphed into a less structured, less consciously directed mind based daily process (it's time to do x, now... followed by y and then z, etc). 

 

I noticed that all the main aspects of former rigid practice incorporate into various aspects of 'normal' daily activities. 

 

This included Stillness... Mindfulness... Five Element Organ Circuit... and Qi Gong.

 

I seems at this point that in releasing a formal schedule of praxis, the opening that resulted enhanced sung and now intuition guides the prompting and initiation of when activities play out.

 

The reduction in formal mind prompting to do things in an order also quiets the atmosphere and increases ability to notice some of the more subtle impulses and promptings that arise.  This most notably takes place with Qi Gong as it involves responding to and surrendering to impulses to move, so is more noticeable consciously when it happens.  Spontaneous promptings occur throughout the day and thankfully, for the last seven months I've had every day completely open, with no requirements (or ability) to go to work... so the conditions are supporting it nicely for now.

 

With Mindfulness, Stillness and Organ Circuit, it's more subtle and I find I become aware of these processes now, much as I become lucid in the dream state... I notice it after the process has initiated and is ongoing.  Conscious mind rarely initiates them any longer, just notices and goes along for the ride once, it's in awareness.

Edited by silent thunder
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On 5/16/2020 at 6:18 PM, awaken said:

Preheaven energies shows by some special lights, like moon, mandala.

Yes, sometimes if I train myself very very hard.

My wife and I have experienced a white light that blots out all other visual reality, but with no pain to the eyes, or dillation of pupils.

 

Upon closing my eyes, vivid mandalas regularly arise in the mind's eye of late.

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