Immortal4life

Question about Tibetan Buddhist Yoga, Tantra, Truhl Khor, Tummo, etc.

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1 hour ago, steve said:

Thanks Miroku!

My apologies, I thought he was Bönpo 

Nah, my apologies for being too pedantic. :D It really does not matter that much in the end...

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6 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Nah, my apologies for being too pedantic. :D It really does not matter that much in the end...

I’m used to seeing Bönpos wearing blue...

I was lazy!

🤣

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On 4/13/2020 at 9:26 PM, Immortal4life said:

So I have more experience as an Indoor internal martial arts practioner than most people you're gonna talk to, and a decent base in authentic Taoist qigong, but I really don't know much about Tantra and Tibetan Yoga. Some of it really, really speaks to me though, I'm really drawn to it.

 

Does anybody know about these, what lineage they come from, who teaches them, how to learn? Where to learn? I wanna get these methods 

 

The ones specifically are the ones I've seen that I'm being called to these days

Hello, 

 

Not all Tibetan Yoga looks like this, in fact most doesn't. The dramatic jumping movements in these videos are called "vajra drops".  It is an amplification of a technique from Indian yoga called "maha vedha mudra" where the body is lifted off the ground by the arms (say, in lotus pose) and dropped a few inches, causing a jolt to the perenium and spine. This is combined with breath retention and muscle locks to bring the prana into the central channel at the lower abdomen more powerfully than breath retention and locks alone. 

 

All Tibetan lineages use breath retention and yogic movements to bring the prana into the central channel and ensure its smooth and balanced flow, but not all of them use these aggressive drops (bep in Tibetan) to amplify the energy.  Acording to scholar-practitioner Ian Baker, drops were introduced into Tibet in Dzogchen termas, and each new generation of termas had a more intense style of drop: first something very mild like in Indian yoga, all the way to vajra drops, that is, jumping from standing and landing in lotus as in the videos you posted, in the Longchen Nyinthig.  Any lineage which has Dzogchen (Kagyu and Nyingma, not sure about Bon) should have this style of yoga, but whether and particular teacher knows it and will teach it is another story!  It is a supplementary practice, only suited for a certain kind of person, with very strict prerequisites.  Clearly, you can hurt yourself not just energetically but physically trying this type of thing.

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I think this may be the right place to ask this: I once read a buddhist said that in some vajrayana circles,alcohol is known as "wisdom water";is there any truth to this rumour?

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On 9/20/2020 at 11:16 AM, jack hammer said:

I think this may be the right place to ask this: I once read a buddhist said that in some vajrayana circles,alcohol is known as "wisdom water";is there any truth to this rumour?

 

Actually, no, you are sort of interrrupting a thread about yoga... might be better in the future to open a new thread :rolleyes:

 

but it's ok, you're new, you'll get the hang of it.

 

calling booze "wisdom water" is a sort of tongue-in-cheek joke -- read here for a good explanation

http://www.theiiis.org/wisdom-water-anyone/

 

walk in beauty

shunka

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On 9/20/2020 at 4:12 PM, mrpasserby said:

I am not a Buddhism aficionado but I have a lot of experience with, "wisdom water" Lol:huh:. 

 

Once a person has inebriated themselves in some way, then they open themselves to any practitioners who can project their Sheut into them. So if they find themselves in the happy circumstances of being in the vicinity of a benevolent human projector of wisdom, then he can possess them and use their body to communicate wisdom, to them and others. :)

 

 

BUT if they are  anywhere near something "not benevolent" (or worse daemonic)  they find themselves in a new terrifying world of hurt for themselves and others.

 

and remarkably, that can tie right into this thread:

 

 

thus:

be careful what you consume;

be careful what you open yourself to.

you might just become an aging immortal's next convenient "vessel"

it's not all shiny rainbows and happy unicorns out there.

 

walk in beauty

shunka

Edited by shunka
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On 4/13/2020 at 11:30 PM, C T said:

The importance of a teacher in such undertakings cannot be stressed enough. 

These practices have long been considered 'secret' for good reason. 

Not that they're secret because of inaccessibility, but because the nuances and layers are many. 

A teacher with affinity takes on the role of guide, counsellor, revealer of dreams, archaeologist, mentor, protector,

chess partner, even a lover at times (if one is so fortunate to form a heart connection with an authentic dakini). 

 

The most basic approach to begin buddhatantra is the creation of an idea of a mandala and gradually imbue/adorn it with pure objects of one's practice. Over time, the mandala will take on a 3D effect, complete with buddhas, yidams, dakinis, protectors (both peaceful & wrathful), even gods and demons, all symbolizing one's journey towards the centre of the mandala, the bindu, which is where one's buddha potential enjoins with actualization of that same potential (manifestation of Samantabhadra/Samanthabadri). The ultimate fruition of buddhatantra. Its a long & twisty process to the centre because its not linear, nor is it in any way resembling the sort of new age ascension that some seem to believe in. This is why an authentic teacher, one who has fully embodied and perfected this mandala in himself/herself, is crucial. 

C T   Thanks, your post provided me with much cultivation concerning why my spirit guides subtly directed me toward interacting with, an 'authentic dakini'. Also, now I have a greater understanding of the ethereal mandalas, that I have been building for several decades.:)

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44876-visualizations-stories-the-mage/

 

Edited by mrpasserby
clarifying information
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On 2020-09-20 at 10:16 AM, jack hammer said:

I think this may be the right place to ask this: I once read a buddhist said that in some vajrayana circles,alcohol is known as "wisdom water";is there any truth to this rumour?

The buddha's beer is nectar to all sentient beings! No buddha though was ever intoxicated due to drinks not even one bit of intoxication 

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Ok so I have a much better idea now of basic buddhist practices like Sadhana, Mantra accumulation, vajrasattva and meditations including shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, and dzogchen 

 

I met a drikung kagyu teacher and they were accessible and really cool seeming people, very sincere and caring people, but light hearted too.

 

Buddhism can be so crazy sometimes though. It reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about like this Island where if sailors landed there, women would feed them lotuses, and then the men would never leave the island and time would pass away like a dream, they'd lose touch with reality

 

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

 

Makes you forget reality and mundane activities. Next thing you know months pass and you've disengaged life a bit cuz your mind is always constantly thinking of the dharma, and compassion, and regret, and aversion to samsara, and you read these texts and all you think about is meditating more and getting more into that mind state, or true reality as it is, I won't say I see rigpa, but like the strong aspiration and desire to keep getting at rigpa, letting go into it, getting clearer and more aware every day, takes over your mind and personality.

 

When I started, my worldly activities had strong momentum, and I would also have meditations to energize and engage in my daily life activities. As time goes by though the Buddhist practices keep piling up and taking over

 

Yesterday I couldn't find motivation to engage in life at all. I couldn't find inspiration or interest in doing anything but meditating and reading mahamudra and dzogchen texts, and mantras. All day.

 

Its good, but today I had to force myself to cut out all buddhism, to do tai chi and meditations for health and engaging life, I need to get that balance down again, cuz it got to a point buddhism, and milarepa, and aspirations of love for all beings, and renunciation of samsara was taking over a bit too much. If you meditate on these things and do sadhana's every day, they start habituating even after you are practicing and effecting you all day afterwards.

 

Edited by Immortal4life
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7 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

You have always seemed to me like someone who gives 100% to what you are interested in.  The thing about mind trainings is they help people who struggle with motivation to develop it.  For those who are naturally motivated to practice but are still living a lay life, hitting the mind trainings as hard as everyone else might not be so important.  Have you talked with your Drikung community about this?  I have serious respect for the Drikung lineage's activities in the West.  If you have received teachings on Vajrayana and Dzogchen, have you received instructions on integrating the practice with daily life?  Just curious, what books on Mahamudra and Dzogchen have you read and gotten benefit from?

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8 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

Ok so I have a much better idea now of basic buddhist practices like Sadhana, Mantra accumulation, vajrasattva and meditations including shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, and dzogchen 

 

I met a drikung kagyu teacher and they were accessible and really cool seeming people, very sincere and caring people, but light hearted too.

 

Buddhism can be so crazy sometimes though. It reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about like this Island where if sailors landed there, women would feed them lotuses, and then the men would never leave the island and time would pass away like a dream, they'd lose touch with reality

 

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

 

Makes you forget reality and mundane activities. Next thing you know months pass and you've disengaged life a bit cuz your mind is always constantly thinking of the dharma, and compassion, and regret, and aversion to samsara, and you read these texts and all you think about is meditating more and getting more into that mind state, or true reality as it is, I won't say I see rigpa, but like the strong aspiration and desire to keep getting at rigpa, letting go into it, getting clearer and more aware every day, takes over your mind and personality.

 

When I started, my worldly activities had strong momentum, and I would also have meditations to energize and engage in my daily life activities. As time goes by though the Buddhist practices keep piling up and taking over

 

Yesterday I couldn't find motivation to engage in life at all. I couldn't find inspiration or interest in doing anything but meditating and reading mahamudra and dzogchen texts, and mantras. All day.

 

Its good, but today I had to force myself to cut out all buddhism, to do tai chi and meditations for health and engaging life, I need to get that balance down again, cuz it got to a point buddhism, and milarepa, and aspirations of love for all beings, and renunciation of samsara was taking over a bit too much. If you meditate on these things and do sadhana's every day, they start habituating even after you are practicing and effecting you all day afterwards.

 

 

I have the exact same opinion. Only, I have experienced this phenomenon in lots of Hindu practices as well. If I immerse myself too deeply within them, I'd start to lose touch with my surroundings.

There is a sensation of a loss of grounding which wouldn't come back unless the mind is brought back and relaxed into mundane reality, time and time again.

This is one of the reasons I'm more engaged in Daoist practices as of now, developing qualities within me while I look for certain other things in the people around me, the sky, the trees and just about everything.

 

While they might be helpful on the spiritual path, the disconnect caused from the 'here and now' makes my being rather uncomfortable. So while I haven't completely stopped interacting with Buddhist sutras and Hindu texts, I go about reading them at a slow pace, trying to digest little things and seeing them play out in my day-to-day mundane life. We just have to remember that while the direction is the same, each one of us walks their own dao, their own path.

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10 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

Ok so I have a much better idea now of basic buddhist practices like Sadhana, Mantra accumulation, vajrasattva and meditations including shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, and dzogchen 

 

I met a drikung kagyu teacher and they were accessible and really cool seeming people, very sincere and caring people, but light hearted too.

 

Buddhism can be so crazy sometimes though. It reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about like this Island where if sailors landed there, women would feed them lotuses, and then the men would never leave the island and time would pass away like a dream, they'd lose touch with reality

 

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

 

Makes you forget reality and mundane activities. Next thing you know months pass and you've disengaged life a bit cuz your mind is always constantly thinking of the dharma, and compassion, and regret, and aversion to samsara, and you read these texts and all you think about is meditating more and getting more into that mind state, or true reality as it is, I won't say I see rigpa, but like the strong aspiration and desire to keep getting at rigpa, letting go into it, getting clearer and more aware every day, takes over your mind and personality.

 

When I started, my worldly activities had strong momentum, and I would also have meditations to energize and engage in my daily life activities. As time goes by though the Buddhist practices keep piling up and taking over

 

Yesterday I couldn't find motivation to engage in life at all. I couldn't find inspiration or interest in doing anything but meditating and reading mahamudra and dzogchen texts, and mantras. All day.

 

Its good, but today I had to force myself to cut out all buddhism, to do tai chi and meditations for health and engaging life, I need to get that balance down again, cuz it got to a point buddhism, and milarepa, and aspirations of love for all beings, and renunciation of samsara was taking over a bit too much. If you meditate on these things and do sadhana's every day, they start habituating even after you are practicing and effecting you all day afterwards.

 

 

That's interesting - because I find exactly the opposite.  I would naturally retreat and abstract myself from everyday life which I find a bit pointless and disturbing.  But if I practice mind-training and sadhanas etc. I feel and am much more engaged with others and 'the world' generally.

 

 

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I think these experiences help us to understand why there are so many traditions and practices within each tradition.

There is no best or most accurate system. One practice or system can not be said to be better than another.

That which brings us closer to the truth of our fundamental nature depends largely on us as individuals.

This is because what we need to connect with the source depends on what specifically is blocking that connection.

 

Like Apech, I've never felt more connected, more grounded, more certain and clear, than that developed through Bön dzogchen and tantric practices. Far more than 12 years of Daoist discipleship to a lineage master. This does not mean that Bön practices are any better or more correct than Daoist practices. It simply means that they are better for me at this moment in my life. 

 

I'm always amused when people talk about practices and systems in terms of what is best or better, this versus that. Questions and judgements like that are meaningless without individual context and cannot be generalized, IMO.

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2 hours ago, steve said:

 

I'm always amused when people talk about practices and systems in terms of what is best or better, this versus that. Questions and judgements like that are meaningless without individual context and cannot be generalized, IMO.

 

Yes!  It's so easy for us to think that what works for us will work for others but that's not always the case.  What's important is the fit between a person and a practice.  This is true of so many things; my partner and I both take prescription medications that work well for us but I'd never suggest Jose take my medication or take his.  Another area where the importance of individual context is often underappreciated: diet.

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