silent thunder Posted August 18, 2018 20 minutes ago, wandelaar said: 33 minutes ago, silent thunder said: From an intellectual perspective, based on my perceptions, I can readily assume and intellectually argue that I am one, separate, independent being and claim logical truth. 20 minutes ago, wandelaar said: This is a forced way to blame logic and intellectual understanding! Actually I think the rest of your post is very good and to the point, and there is no reason why logic and intellectual understanding are limited to the "I am one"-perspective and would be unable to take the other perspectives you mentioned. While I don't blame, or intend to demean logic and intellect, I can see how that may seem the case. My intention is to point out that for me, when abiding in logic and intellect I can readily perceive separate, individual 'things'... whereas in presence and experientially, unity is undeniable. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wu Ming Jen Posted August 18, 2018 57 minutes ago, rideforever said: You are simply wrong. You say all things do their life without complaint or claiming ownership. But the obvious reality is that plants try to kill those who feed on them because they claim ownership to their own life. All creatures do and they fight to the death to claim ownership not only of their own lives but their territory and possessions. The only thing that is given is fruit because of reciprocal maintenance. That is given freely because it also helps the plant, that is the only thing. Human have a really weird interpretation of nature like it's a fairy story where "everything is in harmony". Yes, it's a kind of harmony bloody war of eating each other alive and killing each other's children and fight to the death. The plants do not have our kind of consciousness so it has a different feeling to it. The plants are unconscious (in fact sub-conscious). And this feels dreamy like all asleep. And perhaps that is where you would like to be, asleep. Well perhaps it's not far to go !!! Humans are too dumb to notice the poison barbs the plants are stick out to kill anyone who tries to feed. It spoils their dream. Look at the nature, plants live their lives without complaint, I did not say all things. The natural order is to protect life it is precious.The animals and plants do not have the many issues you have with them. poison ivy look next to them for the cure or as Monty python said no one expects a Spanish inquisition, I mean look at the bright side of life. I kill things to live, am I a murder now? so much mental attachment of what is only natural It is not as dark and destructive as you make believe. "bloody war of eating each other alive and killing each other's children and fight to the death". This one I love you should resolve this is it really you or other that is stealing from you? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted August 18, 2018 1 minute ago, silent thunder said: While I don't blame, or intend to demean logic and intellect, I can see how that may seem the case. My intention is to point out that for me, when abiding in logic and intellect I can readily perceive separate, individual 'things'... whereas in presence and experientially, unity is undeniable. The perspective in which there are persons, houses, trees, rivers, etc. is extremely useful in our daily life, but it is based on useful fictions as you showed by means of the other perspectives you mentioned. The modern scientific viewpoint is that the things of our everyday world have no independent existence and are actually temporary appearances (much like the clouds in the sky) of underlying processes. It is practically handy to consider them as things for the business of daily life but logically and on the basis of intellectual understanding they are not things. this is all a question of the desired level of description. Logic and intellect of themselves are not limited to the usual descriptions of our everyday world. If they were science would never have been able to understand something about the cosmos or the world of the very small. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted August 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, wandelaar said: this is all a question of the desired level of description. That is until you have experintential knowledge and then words fail. The Tao that can be told is not the Tao... 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted August 18, 2018 32 minutes ago, silent thunder said: My intention is to point out that for me, when abiding in logic and intellect I can readily perceive separate, individual 'things'... whereas in presence and experientially, unity is undeniable. You have pointed it out practically and silently - without confrontations, arguments, comparisons, divisions... Let's live and let live. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 18, 2018 8 hours ago, Marblehead said: You talking to me? not specifically, that was for anyone... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 18, 2018 could a soul that never got involved with karma ever evolve... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted August 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kar3n said: That is until you have experiential knowledge and then words fail. Arrh Ah moments... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted August 18, 2018 32 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said: I kill things to live, am I a murder now? so much mental attachment of what is only natural It is not as dark and destructive as you make believe. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted August 18, 2018 6 hours ago, steve said: The conceptual mind can never approach non-dual realization. Hi steve, Such a mind is also perceptual - to each his/her own. Let's live and let live. Good night. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2018 6 hours ago, Apech said: You complete and utter Buddhist! Actually, I think that is the Hindu influence you are seeing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: What about the riverbed? Isn't it part of the river too? Arguably, it is even its fundamental part. The water that is variably flowing through it being secondary to it as its content. Ah, but it too is changing. Sand grains moving from place to place, pebbles being rolled a little further down stream. Rivers have even been known to totally change course, leaving the old river bed and creating a new one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2018 45 minutes ago, 3bob said: not specifically, that was for anyone... Okay. I just wanted to make sure you didn't feel ignored if it was intended for me. But then, now I have forgotten what you said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted August 18, 2018 1 hour ago, silent thunder said: While I don't blame, or intend to demean logic and intellect, I can see how that may seem the case. This is an important point and thank you for bringing it out, ST. I will assume guilt in this as well. My sincere apologies to any who feel my comments are demeaning or arrogant, that is not my intent. When discussing experiential and conceptual matters in a spiritual context, this often comes up. Peter Fenner speaks well of this, as do the Bön Dzogchen teachings. 1 hour ago, silent thunder said: My intention is to point out that for me, when abiding in logic and intellect I can readily perceive separate, individual 'things'... whereas in presence and experientially, unity is undeniable. Well said 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Limahong said: A leaf will not fall down from its tree twice. It just falls... Spoiler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, rideforever said: You are simply wrong. You say all things do their life without complaint or claiming ownership. But the obvious reality is that plants try to kill those who feed on them because they claim ownership to their own life. All creatures do and they fight to the death to claim ownership not only of their own lives but their territory and possessions. The only thing that is given is fruit because of reciprocal maintenance. That is given freely because it also helps the plant, that is the only thing. Human have a really weird interpretation of nature like it's a fairy story where "everything is in harmony". Yes, it's a kind of harmony bloody war of eating each other alive and killing each other's children and fight to the death. The plants do not have our kind of consciousness so it has a different feeling to it. The plants are unconscious (in fact sub-conscious). And this feels dreamy like all asleep. And perhaps that is where you would like to be, asleep. Well perhaps it's not far to go !!! Humans are too dumb to notice the poison barbs the plants are stick out to kill anyone who tries to feed. It spoils their dream. Quantum biology - Trees, plants and mushrooms are proven to communicate via biophotons - just as spirit communicate with humans. No it is not "consciousness" as in voices in the head - or bird songs. haha. Actually the original human culture that we are all from, the San Bushmen, are highly adept at plant identification and also biophoton spirit communication with plants and animals. That is where Daoism and all "spiritual" training comes from - the San Bushmen. So if the San Bushmen kill a bird - they don't eat it till the next morning - because they know the spirit of the bird will tell the other birds that humans are eating the birds. They wait for the spirit to get exorcised out of the area. Wandering God: A Study in Nomadic Spirituality https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0791493245 Morris Berman - 2012 - PHILOSOPHY A Study in Nomadic Spirituality Morris Berman. Roberts, Bernadette, 1, 16, ... 61 Salzman, Philip, 158-59, 162,177 salvation, search for, 143–44 San. See Kung Bushmen Sandars, Nancy, 24, 31, 254 n. 8, 260 n, 22 Sartre, Jean-Paul, 12, ... I had aura dreams about the big old oak trees that I grew up with as a kid - and so I truly think those trees were watching over me. Edited August 18, 2018 by voidisyinyang 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, 3bob said: could a soul that never got involved with karma ever evolve... Is karma illusory to the non-dualist? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted August 18, 2018 Just now, Bindi said: Is karma illusory to the non-dualist? The body can still take on karma but after "eternal liberation" is achieved - beyond death - through the "secret pinhole' on the right side of the heart - then with each breath, the mind goes into formless awareness, beyond the whole 4D spacetime as the Universe. So that does not develop karma and the astral realms are also considered temporary illusions. But to empty out the body into nondualism is very difficult meditation work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) there is more than one school of non-dualism/philosophy /religion, thus there are variations in teachings and summations, including I imagine several about karma. Edited August 18, 2018 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2018 And one about marbles and how they roll. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wu Ming Jen Posted August 18, 2018 Round things roll and square things stay still. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2018 And, of course, the perfect square has no corners. (That should allow it to roll pretty smoothly.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted August 18, 2018 Why tyres aren't square... 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Bindi said: Is karma illusory to the non-dualist? By karma do you mean cause and effect or do you mean the emotionally charged records one carries like baggage? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted August 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Apech said: By karma do you mean cause and effect or do you mean the emotionally charged records one carries like baggage? This one - 'the emotionally charged records one carries like baggage'. If everything is illusion, wouldn't it follow logically that karma is an illusion? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
