Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy?

[Marblehead]

7 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

I’m not so sure about this...

Neither am I.

 

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

What is it that makes it the same river?

All the drops would have to remain and even more, they would have to remain in the exact same place.  This will never happen.  There is always movement.

 

[rideforever]

Non-duality Duality are just fancy words just ripe for having an argument or taking a silly position and posturing.
Who cares.

The question is does anyone know how to enter into the deep states.   Who has good instructions.

"I am the deathless spirit".   Really ?   Is this a Mad Max sequel ?   Sounds nice but these aren't instructions.

One option is to sit with Ramana types and then it can happen.   But you won't understand.

Other option is to find people who understand.

 

Look at these paintings.
Pretty aren't there, beautiful artistic,  colourful.  Fuck all that.
Imagine you are a suffering being on a silly planet and you really need an answer.
Now look again.
What do you see.
 

Something happening the middle of the forehead.
Something happening at the back of the head.
Right.

 

What do you think that is ?
You think these guys were leaning over too much in their bowl of Lucky Charms this morning and something stuck to their face?

No, it's a treasure map.

What is there at the front of the head, and at the back ?
What is there ?

What is it that these glows eyes colour mean.

These locations are the same in so many traditions.
Wake up.

What does it mean.

Now start working.

 

 

 

[Bindi]

26 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

I’m not so sure about this...

 

Yes they do point with words, but there’s nothing you intellectually understand about it.

 

 

 

Intellectual assertion does seem to be the case with most non-dual teachers - you are just required to understand non-duality and that seems to be taken as realisation. Similar to the moment Ramana understood that he was immortal spirit, yet he still took decades doing something. Non-dualists nowadays don't tend to take decades beyond their initial intellectual understanding. 

 

I'm really just talking about the current advaita non-dualists, perhaps it depends what sort of non-dualist you identify with, there might be a few categories that I am ignoring. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Bindi

[rideforever]

When people argue the same wordy rubbish all the time > is it entity possession.
Lots of noise, but pulling the strings are dark slime making a mockery of humans.

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

All the drops would have to remain and even more, they would have to remain in the exact same place.  This will never happen.  There is always movement.

 

 

 

So no river then?

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Non-duality Duality are just fancy words just ripe for having an argument or taking a silly position and posturing.
Who cares.

The question is does anyone know how to enter into the deep states.   Who has good instructions.

"I am the deathless spirit".   Really ?   Is this a Mad Max sequel ?   Sounds nice but these aren't instructions.

One option is to sit with Ramana types and then it can happen.   But you won't understand.

Other option is to find people who understand.

 

Look at these paintings.
Pretty aren't there, beautiful artistic,  colourful.  Fuck all that.
Imagine you are a suffering being on a silly planet and you really need an answer.
Now look again.
What do you see.
 

Something happening the middle of the forehead.
Something happening at the back of the head.
Right.

 

What do you think that is ?
You think these guys were leaning over too much in their bowl of Lucky Charms this morning and something stuck to their face?

No, it's a treasure map.

What is there at the front of the head, and at the back ?
What is there ?

What is it that these glows eyes colour mean.

These locations are the same in so many traditions.
Wake up.

What does it mean.

Now start working.

 

 

 

 

'Starting work' in the head is not good advice as far as I am concerned. There are other places to start, with good reason IMO. 

[Marblehead]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

So no river then?

Only drips.  Wait!  I mean, only drops.  Individual drops.  But we view many drops as a river and, of course, the river most often flows to the sea.  (Some flow into land-locked lakes.)

 

But we don't normally make these distinctions.  We look at the many drops flowing and call them collectively a stream or a river.

 

And we don't say Marbles' fingers are typing, we say Marblehead is typing.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

18 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Intellectual assertion does seem to be the case with most non-dual teachers - you are just required to understand non-duality and that seems to be taken as realisation. Similar to the moment Ramana understood that he was immortal spirit, yet he still took decades doing something. Non-dualists nowadays don't tend to take decades beyond their initial intellectual understanding. 

 

I'm really just talking about the current advaita non-dualists, perhaps it depends what sort of non-dualist you identify with, there might be a few categories that I am ignoring. 

 

Maybe we just have different understandings of what all these terms mean 😊

 

I’m just under the impression that experience of a “non dual state” and intellectual understanding are much different. 

 

Perhaps there are people pretending to have the experience of it, I don’t know. 

[rideforever]

8 minutes ago, Bindi said:

'Starting work' in the head is not good advice as far as I am concerned. There are other places to start, with good reason 

 

Start work with your intelligence.

( I am so full of it today, but hey it's Saturday,  monkey day )

Edited August 18, 2018 by rideforever

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I guess I would say that non-dualism is a philosophical position...

 

Hi Apech, 

 

In addition it is also a very private and personal position. 

'When/where/what/how' - I do/live everyday are truthfully checked by me.

 

I am not the same person over temporal milestones because:

(a) I want to live through honest learning and knowing.

(b) I want to die with better karma over my previous lives.

 

I do not have to argue with anyone except those who truly love me - wishing me a blessed life. 

 

- Anand

[Marblehead]

19 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Perhaps there are people pretending to have the experience of it, I don’t know. 

When you feel (no thinking) that the tree is watching  you you will know the experience.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

That is because I am devolving back to my Neanderthal roots.

 

 

Evolving from a plant to a Neanderthal actually sounds like progress to me. Even more so since the Neanderthal had a bigger brain than the homo sapiens. What's arguably in need of improvement is your understanding of evolutionary biology, however.

[Limahong]

12 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

When you feel (no thinking) that the tree is watching  you you will know the experience.

 

 

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Evolving from a plant to a Neanderthal actually sounds like progress to me. Even more so since the Neanderthal had a bigger brain than the homo sapiens. What's arguably in need of improvement is your understanding of evolutionary biology, however.

Yeah, I forgot about the flower.

 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

the flower

 

 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

I’m not so sure about this...

 

Yes they do point with words, but there’s nothing you intellectually understand about it.

 

 

 

This is one definition of non-dualism -

 

In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second".^[1][2] Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is 'transcended', and awareness is described as 'centerless' and 'without dichotomies'.^{[web 1]} Although this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous,^{[note 1]} it usually is the "result" of prolonged ascetic or meditative/contemplative practice, which includes ethical injunctions. 

 

I think it might be a popular phrase, not necessarily well understood, and claimed too often where another word or phrase might be more appropriate, like 'monism' as Apech mention earlier - 

 

Monism - a theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in a particular sphere, such as that between matter and mind, or God and the world.

 

Whether the experienced state is continuous or not is also important regarding non-dualism, but for me whether karma continues or not seems to be a better indicator of spiritual achievement in general. If karma is not affected, what then is the benefit of claiming  non-dual experience?

 

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Only drips.  Wait!  I mean, only drops.  Individual drops.  But we view many drops as a river and, of course, the river most often flows to the sea.  (Some flow into land-locked lakes.)

 

But we don't normally make these distinctions.  We look at the many drops flowing and call them collectively a stream or a river.

 

And we don't say Marbles' fingers are typing, we say Marblehead is typing.

 

 

 

You complete and utter Buddhist! 

[wandelaar]

Taoism = Buddhism - Reincarnation 

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

This is one definition of non-dualism -

 

In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second".^[1][2] Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is 'transcended', and awareness is described as 'centerless' and 'without dichotomies'.^{[web 1]} Although this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous,^{[note 1]} it usually is the "result" of prolonged ascetic or meditative/contemplative practice, which includes ethical injunctions. 

 

I think it might be a popular phrase, not necessarily well understood, and claimed too often where another word or phrase might be more appropriate, like 'monism' as Apech mention earlier - 

 

Monism - a theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in a particular sphere, such as that between matter and mind, or God and the world.

 

Whether the experienced state is continuous or not is also important regarding non-dualism, but for me whether karma continues or not seems to be a better indicator of spiritual achievement in general. If karma is not affected, what then is the benefit of claiming  non-dual experience?

 

 

 

 

 

How would you know if your karma is affected?

[Fa Xin]

17 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

This is one definition of non-dualism -

 

In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second".^[1][2] Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is 'transcended', and awareness is described as 'centerless' and 'without dichotomies'.^{[web 1]} Although this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous,^{[note 1]} it usually is the "result" of prolonged ascetic or meditative/contemplative practice, which includes ethical injunctions. 

 

I think it might be a popular phrase, not necessarily well understood, and claimed too often where another word or phrase might be more appropriate, like 'monism' as Apech mention earlier - 

 

Monism - a theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in a particular sphere, such as that between matter and mind, or God and the world.

 

Whether the experienced state is continuous or not is also important regarding non-dualism, but for me whether karma continues or not seems to be a better indicator of spiritual achievement in general. If karma is not affected, what then is the benefit of claiming  non-dual experience?

 

 

 

Good question. 😊 What’s the benefit of claiming anything?

 

 

[steve]

The conceptual mind can never approach non-dual realization.

It can circle and poke and prod and, like bobbing for apples, it just pushes away.

Perhaps it is best to dismiss non-duality as bullshit, in that way at least we are not pushing away.

Time spent thinking and discussing the topic is far better spent in the garden or on the toilet.

[Bindi]

29 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

How would you know if your karma is affected?

 

Awareness of the whole issue of karma would increase over time if it was being addressed, at the point where it can be resolved awareness would necessarily be heightened enough to realise what was occurring. I don’t believe resolving karma could be either accidental or immediate, if you’re not aware of it and the slow progress towards its resolution, chances are it’s not resolved. 

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, steve said:

The conceptual mind can never approach non-dual realization.

It can circle and poke and prod and, like bobbing for apples, it just pushes away.

Perhaps it is best to dismiss non-duality as bullshit, in that way at least we are not pushing away.

Time spent thinking and discussing the topic is far better spent in the garden or on the toilet.

 

Do you have any argument why you think that's true.

[steve]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Do you have any argument why you think that's true.

 

Explaining non-dual realization to someone who has not had the experience is very much like explaining the color green to someone who was born blind.