taoteching99

Ttc 56 - Talk or not?

26 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Beautiful quote ☺

post-116836-0-23798100-1489729774_thumb.jpg

Edited by taoteching99
1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i wonder in the original text says yan=talk and not the verb Dao?

1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmnn, then how does anyone learn anything? 

 

and what happens if one who knows, talks?

does that make truth reverse itself? or

do they get whacked by those in silence?

3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i wonder in the original text says yan=talk and not the verb Dao?

 

 
Guodian: - Tr. Hendricks
知之者弗言, Those who understand it say nothing about it;   
言之者弗知     those who talk about it do not understand it.
 
MWA & B:  Tr. Hendricks
知者弗言  Those who know don't talk about it; 
﹦者弗知  those who talk don't know it 
 
HSG & Wang Bi:   Tr. Flowing Hands
知者不言, Those who are enlightened, sit in silence.
言者不知    Those who think they know something, are forever talking.
 
 
HSG notes:
Those who know, value action rather than speech.
A team of four horses cannot overtake the tongue. More words mean more sorrow.
 
Lok Sang Ho notes:
Literally, “Those who are wise do not speak; those who speak are not wise.” The word “much” is added in each of these clauses to revive Laozi’s obvious true meaning.
 
Derek Lin notes:
The truly wise understand the Tao, so they know that actions speak louder than words. Rather than to talk endlessly about what they should do or how they should be, they put their time and effort into the actual doing and being.
On the other hand, those who prattle on and on only demonstrate that they know little about the Tao. They spend so much time talking about what they think they know that they end up not putting any of it into actual practice. Without real-life applications, the Tao means nothing.
 
 
Moss Roberts notes:
The word yan, “say,” in line 1 is mainly used to refer to organized speech, the statement of a position. The sage avoids exposing his advocacy; he takes no side and thus does not become one of a pair of opposites.
4 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shouldn't say anything, should I?

4 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well.... now that you've said that, of course you should!

(Curiosity killed the cat? :D )

1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, anyway, my understanding of this concept is referring direct to the label "Tao" (Dao).

 

Again, as mentioned just a little bit ago in another thread, to speak of something that is undefinable is just blowing air.  But we can speak of the processes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chapter 56 in full context...

 

Those who know do not talk.

Those who talk do not know.

Close your mouth.

Guard your senses.

Temper your sharpness.

Simplify your problems.

Mask your brightness.

Be at one with the dust of the earth.

This is primal union.

Those who have achieved this state

Do not distinguish between friends and enemies,

Between good and harm, between honor and disgrace.

This is the highest state of being.

 

To me, the "talking/not talking" in the broader context is about using the mind and thinking too much. Quiet it all and be like the dust of the earth (fully grounded). As the verse says, this is the primal union...

4 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Seeing that after practicing with traditional methods, it seems to be more obvious that it is an instruction for training exercises.

 

The first says "those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know"; it is apt because you will only know if you train---not if you spend all day talking about training.

 

Close your mouth and guard your senses. You close the mouth to close the ren and du circuits and you guard the senses so you can "find the center" (which is done when you begin the training). Temper your sharpness and simplify your problems; on the way to getting to emptiness and finding the center, you will drop the contents of your mind. Mask your brightness; the light of vitality should appear, but it should be brought inwards so that it is fixed in its original cavity (in the head).

 

Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is a 5 elements description of the above process: fire and wood are united when the mind is stilled; metal and water are united when the body is stilled; the fire-wood amalgam and the metal-water amalgam are united when you actually enter into meditation and the product of them being united is the element of earth.

 

This is the primal union. Those who have achieved this state do not distinguish between friends and enemies, between good and harm, between honor and disgrace (actually, their awareness is entirely inside---so they don't distinguish any of the juxtaposed external factors). This is the highest state of being----it is a state where the body is consolidated as earth and can actually harmonize with heaven (in accord with actually doing real alchemy).

 

Seeing it after putting time into theory and practice, this makes immense sense to me.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited by Apeiron&Peiron
7 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chapter 56 in full context...

 

Those who know do not talk.

Those who talk do not know.

Close your mouth.

Guard your senses.

Temper your sharpness.

Simplify your problems.

Mask your brightness.

Be at one with the dust of the earth.

This is primal union.

Those who have achieved this state

Do not distinguish between friends and enemies,

Between good and harm, between honor and disgrace.

This is the highest state of being.

 

To me, the "talking/not talking" in the broader context is about using the mind and thinking too much. Quiet it all and be like the dust of the earth (fully grounded). As the verse says, this is the primal union...

 

 

:wub:  :wub:

2 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful quote ☺

chop wood, carry water...

 

shhh...

3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing that after practicing with traditional methods, it seems to be more obvious that it is an instruction for training exercises.

 

The first says "those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know"; it is apt because you will only know if you train---not if you spend all day talking about training.

 

This sentiment about not speaking seems to be in alignment with the other chapter which has the phrase, "the sage teaches without speaking".  How can the sage teach without speaking?

1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 How can the sage teach without speaking?

By setting an example?

2 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By setting an example?

 

That's one way.

 

I know another answer but I'm not supposed to say  =)

3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

This sentiment about not speaking seems to be in alignment with the other chapter which has the phrase, "the sage teaches without speaking". How can the sage teach without speaking?

Good question. I bet they could directly manipulate your energy from wuji. I first did alchemy exercises spontaneously 10 years ago; it was like getting a sort of tactile suggestion for what to do.

 

Now that I am doing the exercises again, I can get to a state that seems closer to the wuji dimension. I don't know if the guide when I first picked up these exercises was someone else or if it was resonance from a different time when I would learn them formally.

 

Edit: the smartphone turned wuji into wiki

Edited by Apeiron&Peiron
3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if the guide when I first picked up these exercises was someone else or if it was resonance from a different time when I would learn them formally.

 

 

Please clarify, by guide you mean a previous teacher you were remembering/seeing, or guidance from an entity appearing on your mind's screen?  My chi kung buddy who I used to practice with experienced the later.

1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

OK, I'll answer my question about how does the sage teach without speaking, and I speak from experience.  

 

The sage doesn't teach blah blah, obviously, they teach nei kung!  What else?  Nei kung is the Way!

 

During out nei kung classes there was NO speaking, neither by the teacher nor the students.  The goal was to watch him like a hawk and then imitate the movements exactly, and as one master told me: "only a master will attempt an exact imitation of another", apparently the others don't care about exact imitations, I guess they don't see the value in it or something.  I noticed this in a Saturday morning chi kung class I went to once near the university,  The teacher had quite a few university students, some new and some older ones, and not one of them was doing exactly what he was doing, they were doing vague imitations, kind of what they felt like doing.  I was really embarrassed for the teacher and thought it was a big insult to him.

 

But I digress, getting back to the not speaking.  Each relatively complex movements or exercises that the sage teaches, and there were many, had many aspects to it.  Each one included strengthening, stretching, energy work, and meditation, and it is the job of the serious student to explore all of these facets extensively in order to figure out:  In what way is this strengthening me?  How can I use it and it's variations for stretching?  Based on intent and feeling the energy, what are the many ways that it is running and or creating energy?  and it's all mediation.  This is how you can create a master.

 

As an example, some teachers will tell you how a certain exercise may be moving energy or how it is creating energy, but a lot of movements have several aspects and several ways of moving energy at the same time, depending on which one you focus on.  So the problem is that when the teacher tells the student about one way, one thing to look for, that they will focus on that one thing and the other twenty ways won't occur to them, they will miss them forever probably.  If you really got into detail you could talk about one movement for hours and still not cover all the bases.  In fact no explanation or knowing of these things is needed and the movement will do the work in all it's wondrous ways with no mentating required!

 

Now, we know of some teachers, like a popular plagiaristic book author who has a resort in Thailand, who became rich by writing books about sex, who teaches weekend seminars in which 95+% of the time he's flapping his jaw about a couple of terribly simplistic, essentially useless, exercises, and the rest of the -5% of the time the students do said essentially useless exercises.

 

So, you spend two days learning essentially nothing in the way of serious cultivation exercises, while on the other hand, the sage who teaches without speaking can impart, in a couple of hours, many movements which combined contain hundreds of valuable techniques.  Of course you have to go back the next and the next and the next week in order to be able to remember all that.  It's also a lot cheaper, you can go to classes taught by a sage for months for the price of one weekend seminar.

 

So there's also this:  The sage teaches without seminars  =)

Edited by Starjumper
5 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Please clarify, by guide you mean a previous teacher you were remembering/seeing, or guidance from an entity appearing on your mind's screen? My chi kung buddy who I used to practice with experienced the later.

It's a bit of a complicated story. I was 14 at the time and in the (then) recent past I had seen The Last Samurai. I thought that meditation would be a cool thing to try, so I would sit during the night. I had been doing calisthenics so meditation was a sort of continuation.

 

Anyways, I'd get little nudges (psychological and somatic) to adjust things or do things. With exactly no knowledge of yoga or qigong, I had shifted into sitting in full lotus, orbiting energy in the ren and du channels and even incorporating eye movements. Basically, I had started doing the exercises from Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga (with a few other things thrown in).

 

Apparently that's rather peculiar since I have heard of nothing similar from anyone else

Edited by Apeiron&Peiron
1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Amazing things can happen when a person starts meditating at a young age, congratulations on starting early and I hope you stick with it.  The immortal Babaji started around the age of six and became enlightened around the age of 12 I think.  A few years after that he became an immortal.  Babaji was lucky to have the guidance of a powerful Siddha wizard in Ceylon.

 

I was curious about what your guide was like because my chi kung buddy would see a shadow figure on the screen of his closed eyes.  This figure would do chi kung movements and he would follow them, and I would follow him; then the next week I would lead and he would follow.  We learned a lot that way.

Edited by Starjumper
3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

when so much is stated without words

are words required?

 

Sometimes words are not required in real, one on one, communications.  Here on the forum all we have is words.

1 person thanks this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

There's another aspect that occurred to me just now.  Not all wizards are sages, but all sages are wizards, and they would be able to use telepathy (which can be a wordless communication of a picture/concept, or a message with words) silently with their students.

Edited by Starjumper
2 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The wordless teaching is necessary for a topic that is beyond speech and conceptual mind to comprehend.

 

Using the mode of mind that does not require speech or thoughts (thoughts are in word form) to penetrate the mystery.

 

The shining mind or original mind sometimes in the form of wisdom, intuition, feeling, awareness of just what is, is used daily by all.

 

the communication of body and mind is feeling this function does not require words for the miracle of body to function.

 

The universe does not require words for the planets to stay in their orbits.

 

I bet we could come up with ten thousand things that do not require speech. 

 

Silence is the absolute balance of body mind and spirit. Silence is the cornerstone of character.

 

Transmission of true awareness from silence will lead to correct action.

 

Try not to let the thinking mind filled with endless words get in the way.

3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes words are not required in real, one on one, communications.  Here on the forum all we have is words.

Interesting. My cats understand some words, at least that's what I think as they react to some of my words or the tone of my voice. What I found interesting is that most of the time they talk by positioning themselves wherever I am in the house. No noise, no nothing and I am starting to understand they talk in silence. I guess this silence was one of our lost abilities to live in nature.

3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites