what is the point of existence?

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

why must there be a reason?

[Nungali]

apparently this covers most 'experience'  ( a few may fall outside this, but apparently the dont 'effect' us  )

 

 

 

 

oh look ... its that tripartite duality again that I keep harping  on about    

[Karl]

Googling quantum lead me to websites for the following companies/products: Quantum Data Storage, Quantum Instruments, Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies, Quantum Sails, Quantum Espresso, Quantum Design ... it goes on and on. So I think quantum theory must have to do with marketing and making things sound new-fangled and cool and impossibly hip.

 

Which is just about as far from the point of existence as a person could get, if you ask me. I think the point of existence is to make peace with how uncool we are, how small and prosaic and Newtonian. To get to the point where we don´t need to puff ourselves up with quantum this or that. Where we can just be ourselves, nothing special.

 

And, paradoxically, at the same time, fabulous.

That's the first time I have detected a sense of the greatness of man in your posts. We are small, yet only in a purely material sense, but boundless in the mental and physical sense. Don't you love that juxtaposition ? The sense of the mighty against which we are matched ? How we are a prime mover, a first cause, creators. Make me a lever long enough and I can lift planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies:-) yet people either moan like this greatness is a curse, or feel so tiny, like helpless specks buffeted around in a malevolent universe. We seem to want to destroy the good for being the good, to be impotent sacrificial beasts wearing sack cloth and ashes for the sin of greatness. Edited September 24, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Existence is bigger than reason.

That's a strange kind of relative dimension. There's something oddly poetic about such a statement.

 

Existence exists and consciousness is its axiomatic twin. Only a conscious man uses the faculty of reason by which he can transform existence into something useful to him. Here is a crude sum: existence + reason = happiness

The benevolent universe of which reason was born in man, for man to first obey and then transform by reason into happiness.

Only reason can measure or define a relationship as part of the process of transformation.

[Jeff]

That's a strange kind of relative dimension. There's something oddly poetic about such a statement.

Existence exists and consciousness is its axiomatic twin. Only a conscious man uses the faculty of reason by which he can transform existence into something useful to him. Here is a crude sum: existence + reason = happiness

The benevolent universe of which reason was born in man, for man to first obey and then transform by reason into happiness.

Only reason can measure or define a relationship as part of the process of transformation.

Consider a young child just playing with no worries... that is happiness.

 

Reason without fundamental clarity, is the basis for suffering. Being natural or one with existence would be true happiness for a Taoist. So consider the possibility of something like... Existence - Reason = Happiness.

 

Be like a child, don't think about it and go with the flow...

[Marblehead]

And that is why we are told to return to the state of the child.  (My inner child is still alive and well.)

[Karl]

Consider a young child just playing with no worries... that is happiness.

Reason without fundamental clarity, is the basis for suffering. Being natural or one with existence would be true happiness for a Taoist. So consider the possibility of something like... Existence - Reason = Happiness.

Be like a child, don't think about it and go with the flow...

Oh dear Jeff. A regression to a totally dependent childhood of tantrums and tears does not appeal at all. You want to get a pack of diapers and a pacifier, then go ahead-if you get old enough and sufficiently senile you may have a second chance at your paradise. I prefer full power reasoning and the volitional option of reasoned judgement. Existence-reason = hell and please stick a needle full of poison in me before I become that way.

 

Going with the flow is total abdication, it is evasion and moral cowardice of the worst kind. If you feel so badly then whatever you are practising is leading you further into hell, that is your decision of course, I can only look on perplexed and slightly saddened at the incapacity. It is a place I do not ever wish to go either voluntarily, nor by force.

[Karl]

And that is why we are told to return to the state of the child.  (My inner child is still alive and well.)

Fuck that for a lark. Can't think of anything more terrifying and miserable. I would question anyone's motives that entreaty you to become as naive and trusting as a child.

[Jeff]

Oh dear Jeff. A regression to a totally dependent childhood of tantrums and tears does not appeal at all. You want to get a pack of diapers and a pacifier, then go ahead-if you get old enough and sufficiently senile you may have a second chance at your paradise. I prefer full power reasoning and the volitional option of reasoned judgement. Existence-reason = hell and please stick a needle full of poison in me before I become that way.

Going with the flow is total abdication, it is evasion and moral cowardice of the worst kind. If you feel so badly then whatever you are practising is leading you further into hell, that is your decision of course, I can only look on perplexed and slightly saddened at the incapacity. It is a place I do not ever wish to go either voluntarily, nor by force.

Karl,

 

A child that is throwing a tantrum is one that has started to reason, to desire, to want. They attempt to demand to impose their sense of reason on existance and when existance does not do what it says, happiness is lost. Hence, with your own expample, you have proven my formula...

 

Best,

Jeff

[Marblehead]

Fuck that for a lark. Can't think of anything more terrifying and miserable. I would question anyone's motives that entreaty you to become as naive and trusting as a child.

Well Karl, living spontaneously has been pretty kind to me.  I have been naive but more as an adult than as a child.  As a child it was "beware of people you don't know".  As an adult I have trusted that people would do the right thing.  I guess I should not have trusted people I didn't know.

 

But anyhow, becoming as the child points more to living spontaneously, intuitively, and naturally.  As we age we build way too many walls.  I won't argue that some are needed at times but really, after the battle is over we don't need the walls any more.

[Karl]

Karl,

A child that is throwing a tantrum is one that has started to reason, to desire, to want. They attempt to demand to impose their sense of reason on existance and when existance does not do what it says, happiness is lost. Hence, with your own expample, you have proven my formula...

Best,

Jeff

We 'want' from the moment we come out of the womb, we just can't make sufficient sense of the world and our bodies are too weak for us to survive independently. You must of missed the crying, screaming and mewling of an infant.

[Karl]

Well Karl, living spontaneously has been pretty kind to me.  I have been naive but more as an adult than as a child.  As a child it was "beware of people you don't know".  As an adult I have trusted that people would do the right thing.  I guess I should not have trusted people I didn't know.

 

But anyhow, becoming as the child points more to living spontaneously, intuitively, and naturally.  As we age we build way too many walls.  I won't argue that some are needed at times but really, after the battle is over we don't need the walls any more.

Iiving spontaneously ? LOL -surely you don't believe that to be true. You told me you wait for your army pension. You live in a nice house surrounded by storm fencing, have a solar cell powered vehicle and fish ponds. This is you living spontaneously is it ? ;-)

[blue eyed snake]

Well Karl, living spontaneously has been pretty kind to me.  I have been naive but more as an adult than as a child.  As a child it was "beware of people you don't know".  As an adult I have trusted that people would do the right thing.  I guess I should not have trusted people I didn't know.

 

But anyhow, becoming as the child points more to living spontaneously, intuitively, and naturally.  As we age we build way too many walls.  I won't argue that some are needed at times but really, after the battle is over we don't need the walls any more.

 

reading between the lines...

Marble seems to be more of a ' mystic' then he wants to admit 

[Jeff]

We 'want' from the moment we come out of the womb, we just can't make sufficient sense of the world and our bodies are too weak for us to survive independently. You must of missed the crying, screaming and mewling of an infant.

3 kids of my own. Big difference between desire and peace when residing in the moment.

[Marblehead]

Iiving spontaneously ? LOL -surely you don't believe that to be true. You told me you wait for your army pension. You live in a nice house surrounded by storm fencing, have a solar cell powered vehicle and fish ponds. This is you living spontaneously is it ? ;-)

I'm not going to let you get away with that.

 

I never said I wait for my pension.  I'm proud to get it.  I earned it.  I don't wait for my Social Security check either.  It arrives monthly.  It is, after all, my money.

 

Yes, I have those other things.  But I don't spend my entire life with them.  The car is finished - all I do now is drive it and pass by all the gas stations.

 

The fence was around the property when I bought the property.  And I rarely close the gate.

 

The fish pond?  Sure, that takes time but I am gaining pleasure from it even when I have to do a little work on it, like right now.  I sometimes need to get in the water and mess with the fish.  We play chase.  The minnows nibble the dead skin off my feet.  And when the weather is nice I go out there and mentally convert the pond area into a sanctuary.

 

However, that takes only a small portion of my time.  The rest of my time is free for me to do as I will.  Sometimes I take a nap, I might get on the internet, watch TV, doesn't matter because it will be whatever I feel like doing at the time.

 

In the most part what I do is whatever I wish to do at the time.  That's living spontaneously.  Intuition is a driving force.  Whatever is done as a result is something my subconscious mind indicated I should do.  Sometimes I get bad instructions but that's okay.

 

So anyhow, yes, on the one hand I have a structured life but on the other hand, because my life is structured with no significant material needs I am free to do as I will most of the time.

[Marblehead]

reading between the lines...

Marble seems to be more of a ' mystic' then he wants to admit 

Yeah, maybe you are reading between the lines too.  Hehehe.

 

Karl reading between the lines I can understand.

[liminal_luke]

 

Marble seems to be more of a ' mystic' then he wants to admit 

 

Yeah, it kind of figures.  Even notice how hard it is to get a handle on who someone really is from their handle? A lot of people take a kind of wizard-of-oz approach to name-picking, choosing a moniker that sounds like it came straight out of the Tao de Ching -- you know, something super esoteric and advanced.  Take, for instance, Liminal- Luke.  You gotta watch out for that one  Who does he think he is, a Skywalker or something?

 

Fortunately, it also works the other way.  Some of the kindest bums call themselves snakes; some of the smartest, marbleheads.  I´ll never understand it. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

I'm not going to let you get away with that.

 

I never said I wait for my pension.  I'm proud to get it.  I earned it.  I don't wait for my Social Security check either.  It arrives monthly.  It is, after all, my money.

 

Yes, I have those other things.  But I don't spend my entire life with them.  The car is finished - all I do now is drive it and pass by all the gas stations.

 

The fence was around the property when I bought the property.  And I rarely close the gate.

 

The fish pond?  Sure, that takes time but I am gaining pleasure from it even when I have to do a little work on it, like right now.  I sometimes need to get in the water and mess with the fish.  We play chase.  The minnows nibble the dead skin off my feet.  And when the weather is nice I go out there and mentally convert the pond area into a sanctuary.

 

However, that takes only a small portion of my time.  The rest of my time is free for me to do as I will.  Sometimes I take a nap, I might get on the internet, watch TV, doesn't matter because it will be whatever I feel like doing at the time.

 

In the most part what I do is whatever I wish to do at the time.  That's living spontaneously.  Intuition is a driving force.  Whatever is done as a result is something my subconscious mind indicated I should do.  Sometimes I get bad instructions but that's okay.

 

So anyhow, yes, on the one hand I have a structured life but on the other hand, because my life is structured with no significant material needs I am free to do as I will most of the time.

You don't need to answer to me MH.

[Karl]

3 kids of my own. Big difference between desire and peace when residing in the moment.

I don't even know what that means.

 

Time is a continuum of relative causality. A moment is not frozen and causality marches onwards, our bodies age, we must breath, we get hungry, thirsty, cold, sick.

 

Desire is an emotional expression of a value we wish to acquire, or hold. Peace is the feeling of happiness on obtaining, or holding a value that we desired.

[thelerner]

Consider a young child just playing with no worries... that is happiness.

 

.. Being natural or one with existence would be true happiness for a Taoist. ..

 

Be like a child, don't think about it and go with the flow...

That's a mindset we don't have to lose.  Not if we value it.  Karl has a point that we wouldn't want to stay there, not always, but what he's missing is that it's a great place, rejuvenating, simply happy, to spend some time in.   Playing.. keeps us young and happy, easy to forget in the adult world. 

 

It may not be the point of existence, but it makes existence quite a bit better. 

[Karl]

That's a mindset we don't have to lose.  Not if we value it.  Karl has a point that we wouldn't to stay there, not always, but what he's missing is that it's a great place, rejuvenating, simply happy, to spend some time in.   Playing.. keeps us young and happy, easy to forget in the adult world. 

 

It may not be the point of existence, but it makes existence quite a bit better.

 

Not for me. I don't require to re-experience childhood. I don't 'play' and most of what I've seen of adult play seems less fun than people make it out to be. I don't need to forget the adult world as I enjoy it and I have no idea why one needs to remain young-I'd be happy if my body stayed young and fit, but pretending to be a child isn't going to have any effect on the passage of time. I'd rather study or work/perform a skill than go off to mindless play, it holds zero attraction for me. I think you are kidding yourself-literally.

[Jeff]

Not for me. I don't require to re-experience childhood. I don't 'play' and most of what I've seen of adult play seems less fun than people make it out to be. I don't need to forget the adult world as I enjoy it and I have no idea why one needs to remain young-I'd be happy if my body stayed young and fit, but pretending to be a child isn't going to have any effect on the passage of time. I'd rather study or work/perform a skill than go off to mindless play, it holds zero attraction for me. I think you are kidding yourself-literally.

Ok, for those who don't want to be carefree like a child playing, another suggestion...

 

Just listen to some good music and feel the smile grow from your heart and spill out to your face.

 

The key is "just listening"...

[liminal_luke]

I was a nerdy, worrywort of a little boy, so I don´t have a big desire to re-experience childhood either.  But I get what people mean when they talk glowingly about childlikeness.  I think it means the relief you feel in your body when everything just lets go.

Edited September 24, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

Ok, for those who don't want to be carefree like a child playing, another suggestion...

Just listen to some good music and feel the smile grow from your heart and spill out to your face.

The key is "just listening"...

The point of 'good' music is that one judges it to be so on a number of criteria if one is sufficiently discriminating. The music therefore has a value, we are not merely 'just listening' but 'properly listening' and continuing that judgement.

 

Yet what are we judging ? Music is an abstract made concrete. It is like the words of a good book, or the beautiful lines of a motor car. Our senses do not pick up simple vibrations from which we grin innately, not at all, the crafting of the work resonates with our own internal values. The craftsman exhibits something more than talent, they communicate their abstract values to us in a concrete form. As we read the book, look at the art, see the car, or listen to the music then these values resonate with our own. This is why art is so individual.

 

Unfortunately we are losing this critical discrimination. We are told that unmade beds, piles of bricks and dead horses are art; that any buzzes, tweets and random repetive noises are music. People now depend on media reviews to tell them what art is good, what food to eat and what to buy. If a magazine article tells them an old master is stuffy old history and a shapeless blob of colour is a sublime work of genius they are moved to accept it as truth.

[Jeff]

The point of 'good' music is that one judges it to be so on a number of criteria if one is sufficiently discriminating. The music therefore has a value, we are not merely 'just listening' but 'properly listening' and continuing that judgement.

Yet what are we judging ? Music is an abstract made concrete. It is like the words of a good book, or the beautiful lines of a motor car. Our senses do not pick up simple vibrations from which we grin innately, not at all, the crafting of the work resonates with our own internal values. The craftsman exhibits something more than talent, they communicate their abstract values to us in a concrete form. As we read the book, look at the art, see the car, or listen to the music then these values resonate with our own. This is why art is so individual.

Unfortunately we are losing this critical discrimination. We are told that unmade beds, piles of bricks and dead horses are art; that any buzzes, tweets and random repetive noises are music. People now depend on media reviews to tell them what art is good, what food to eat and what to buy. If a magazine article tells them an old master is stuffy old history and a shapeless blob of colour is a sublime work of genius they are moved to accept it as truth.

Just listen... not judge or try to discern... Quiet the mind and just listen...