3bob Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) again, what is to be gained or lost? Will any of these various exercises really gain one anything except an apparent or relative gain in an apparent or relative world? (granted a positive world would be more pleasant than a negative one yet there would still be no final satisfaction among such) A similar problem arises with the idea of what could really be lost except for apparent or relative losses? Btw, if the Tao is not gaining or losing and the One is not gaining or losing and there is nothing outside of the One - then what in the heck is really going on and what are we doing other than making apparent gains or losses in our heads via all these exercises? That may sound fatalistic or even nihilistic in a way but unless something is really making a difference beyond appearances' or relative gains or losses then it's all just a mind game since Spirit is already Spirit, (along with spirits) with nothing that can be gained or lost since Spirit is already happy to be Spirit (and which is our quintessential nature) and it does not need to gain its freedom, nor can it lose it.. Edited January 19, 2016 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted January 18, 2016 again, what is to be gained or lost? Will any of these various exercises really gain one anything except an apparent or relative gain in an apparent or relative world? (granted a positive world would be more pleasant than a negative one yet there would still be no final satisfaction among such) A similar problem arises with the idea of what could really be lost except for apparent or relative losses? Btw, if the Tao is not gaining or losing and the One is not gaining or losing and there is nothing outside of the One - then what in the heck is really going on and what are we doing other than making apparent gains or losses in our heads via all these exercises? That may sound fatalistic or even nihilistic in a way but unless something is really making a difference beyond appearances' or relative gains or losses then it's all just a mind game since Spirit is already Spirit, (along with spirits) with nothing that can be gained or lost since Spirit is already happy to be Spirit (and which is our quintessential nature) and it does not need to gain its freedom, nor can it lose it.. That's rational. In the end subjectivism boils down to 'There is no reality and everything occurs within the framework of consciousness'. I decided around a year ago that it was an untenable philosophic dead end and was making me miserable, remote and isolated. Every so often reality showed up and smacked me around the head. My response was to practice with greater vehemence, but reality never gave up, so I did. I concluded that all these practices really do is to confirm that they aren't the way. As such they are a positive thing. Sometimes it's necessary to bang your head off a wall until you figure out that the pain cannot be dispelled by thought alone and stopping is infinitely easier. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Abhinavagupta responds... "The whole universe is set in your essence within the ocean, within the Heart, in the life-span. Let us win your honeyed wave that is brought to the face of the waters as they flow together." "He who by means of this teaching perceives on all sides the universe like a mass of foam in the midst of the ambrosial ocean of consciousness, he is declared to be the one Siva Himself" Edited January 18, 2016 by Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted January 18, 2016 Abhinavagupta responds... Those are pretty words. I'd be more interested in your own words though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted January 18, 2016 Those are pretty words. I'd be more interested in your own words though... Sure... If one can simply learn to reside, and let go of all issues and fears, everything is opened to them. While nothing is truly "gained", what has been lost/obscured can be "found". 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted January 18, 2016 My perspective: We aren't Tao. We are people. We, as human, are the universe experiencing loss and gain - although beyond our experience stated designations do not exist. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 18, 2016 Matter & energy are neither created nor destroyed but merely change from one form to another. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted January 18, 2016 Balance within change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted January 18, 2016 Sure... If one can simply learn to reside, and let go of all issues and fears, everything is opened to them. While nothing is truly "gained", what has been lost/obscured can be "found". So, a few years back on a beautiful summer day, a man on a bicycle ran the stop sign by my house, and was hit by an oncoming truck. Help arrived within minutes, and the man physically survived - mentally not so much. His wife, who was a stay at home mom, and father in law showed up one day - with his children in the back seat of the car. And you can believe that I did not feed them platitudes about giving up issues, or surrendering fears. I shared what information I was willing to, and then calmly explained that there were things she did not want in her head. The lives of that whole family were changed in an instant. They experienced a very confusing and profound sort of loss. And all of the pretty words in the world were not going to change that. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) umm, I'd say that even the process of obscured and un-obscured is only apparent or relative in apparent or relative worlds. The reasoning mind wants to know why but there is no definitive answer for it other than something like, "if it doesn't kill you it will make you stronger" - yet stronger than what? Spirit will never be stronger, wiser or better than what it already is nor less than that - so why go through an apparent or relative process of obscured and un-obscured? It seems the purpose is to gain a matrix for Spirits manifestation in time and space but even the gain of such a matrix is also lost in time and space, thus the big picture still boils down to no over-all gain or loss. Edited January 18, 2016 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted January 18, 2016 So, a few years back on a beautiful summer day, a man on a bicycle ran the stop sign by my house, and was hit by an oncoming truck. Help arrived within minutes, and the man physically survived - mentally not so much. His wife, who was a stay at home mom, and father in law showed up one day - with his children in the back seat of the car. And you can believe that I did not feed them platitudes about giving up issues, or surrendering fears. I shared what information I was willing to, and then calmly explained that there were things she did not want in her head. The lives of that whole family were changed in an instant. They experienced a very confusing and profound sort of loss. And all of the pretty words in the world were not going to change that. Yes, I would agree that there would be no such point in offering pretty words after such a terrible accident. But, I don't see how that would relate to the OP regarding whether there is anything to gain from practices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 18, 2016 again, what is to be gained or lost? So you're looking for, in a word, 'nothing'. I don't really disagree with the point that the apparent, relative experience of the flesh seems just a game of seeking thrones. So what are we to make of such lives as Buddha or Jesus? To me, it is just we are living out an appearance of a destiny/path meandering across timeless space. The relative existence can give some insight (at different times or lives) to that which is unseen. And one only knows what is already known: They are but a flower (or weed) in the ten thousand arising. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted January 18, 2016 Yes, I would agree that there would be no such point in offering pretty words after such a terrible accident. But, I don't see how that would relate to the OP regarding whether there is anything to gain from practices. IMO There is apparent and relative gain from some practices. And in the big picture - not so much. But, as I live at this intersection where such accidents, and worse, have occurred I will continue my various practices. One of those practices is gardening. There was a multiple fatality accident here before I moved in. And people identified this place with death - repeating stories of where bodies were. I built up a mound of dirt, and carefully placed rocks. Then planted flowers that the birds and other wildlife enjoy. I acknowledge both the death that has occurred and life. And now people talk about the flowers... We can drive ourselves crazy with these concepts, and trying to figure what it is we're supposed to do with the understandings that we've found. My choice is acceptance - and flowers. YMMV 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 18, 2016 Dawei, I'm not looking for a particular nothing (lol) but I don't mind whatever pops out of the bushes... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 18, 2016 I like the concept of a Dance going on at the nexus and or pivot point of say - no-thing and some-thing -, similar to the Tai-chi symbol that alludes to the dance of yin and yang... yet this dancer can never rest unless they go fast enough to be standing still. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) In my family we consider cultivation to be the process of bringing the entirety of creation to mind, to consciousness. So we starting with ourselves and body - to bring these into consciousness. What is "gained or lost"? - or, what is it that we are dealing with? Consciousness. Mind. Not gain or loss. Movement and change. This is what is developing during this life from physical bodily existence. This is what is there when we (body, all relative) "die". This is the "spiritual infant" arising from the physical adult. Consciousness. Mind. -VonKrankenhaus Edited January 18, 2016 by vonkrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AussieTrees Posted January 18, 2016 Hi 3bob, It seems our bodies are mortal,and any practice will pass as we do,the gains are apparent when we are able to enjoy our lives. Anything learnt in this life,may lead to an end to rebirth,or as a second place getter may lead to rebirth,either way. When we practice the gains help us with this mortality and life as we live it,bit like the ability to swim,yes we can swim well,no real gain until we immerse ourselves in water,then very much a positive. Enjoy,laugh,cry,encourage the young,grieve your losses,ponder your own demise,this is the experience of life with a mortal body,all things come to pass in their own time. Gains and losses are subjective. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 18, 2016 Hi Aussie Trees, I have no problem with rebirth - as long as the I is real - all the rest is secondary. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 18, 2016 I have the abiding sense that nothing is inherently gained, nor lost. It is a portion of the paradigm of 'spotlessness' that hovers somewhere in my psyche, no matter what occurs in my life. Seems to me, there is nothing possible that can stain, ruin, improve, nor even alter in the slightest, the source. Nor is there any possibility of even for a fraction of a moment, to be in any way, at any level, separate. This sense I have, supports my feeling/thought form that there are inherently, no things, or places, or actions/words, that are more spiritual, than any others. Spirit is in this sense, to me, inseparable from anything I could experience, or conceive, much like source. There are simply no things that are not spiritual, nor are any more or less spiritual. To me, Janitors are not less spiritual than Mountain Sages. Stones are no less spiritual than streams, or birds. And none of them, in any way ever, as I experience it, can ever be lost, improved, nor stained. The process at its core is spotless. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wu Ming Jen Posted January 18, 2016 Proof is in the pudding. The exercises we do to maintain a good energy system shows itself in our flow of life, in our relationship with ourselves and the universe meaning on all levels,inner true wealth, health and happiness. Correct practice leads to all these things. No speculation of death when we leave our bodies because if things are right NOW they will also be right latter, always present, aware of danger and changing loss into gain. What has been gained in some instances should be lost. So is that loss considered a gain or a gain that was lost? Now I am confused. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted January 19, 2016 I guess it is all about from which perspective you choose to look at things. Are we looking closer at the gains or the loses? In my life the gains have far outweighed the loses. What was lost, I never need to hold on to in the first place. Much love. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bearded Dragon Posted January 19, 2016 again, what is to be gained or lost? What's the big deal about gaining/losing? Is it really important or are you just conditioned to think so? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted January 19, 2016 Long ago we had an old member who was quite the master of crazy wisdom. He went by the handle Ron Jeremy and once wrote "What good will your practice do once you're dead?" It seems flippant, but its actually quite important. How deep are you going? Are we at the surface or are we penetrating reality itself? How hard are we willing to work and what we making ourselves into? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) "what's the big deal" is part of what I'm exploring or commenting on along with others. Many are at this website looking into gaining or sharing some kind enlightenment meaning and or in reducing suffering, how about you BD ? Edited January 19, 2016 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bearded Dragon Posted January 21, 2016 "what's the big deal" is part of what I'm exploring or commenting on along with others. Many are at this website looking into gaining or sharing some kind enlightenment meaning and or in reducing suffering, how about you BD ? Trying to figure it out is a part of suffering. Been there, done that. You really don't need to figure anything out intellectually. For me I can see a tangible connection between dropping intellectualism and reduction of suffering (or freedom). This is why I prod people from time to time. It's not even about getting rid of stuff in your head. It's the pull that grabs people and draws them into their heads. Dropping intellectualism is like quitting smoking in a sense, because the effort is not in stopping smoking (akin to thoughts) but rather cutting that which pulls you in. Some smokers seem to be able to have a cigarette from time to time AFTER they've cut the addiction. There is nothing wrong with intelligent discussion, but I ask whether you're feeding the addiction or actually trying to achieve something. When I feel that a question is moot then I kind of have to presume you're just feeding the addiction. Wouldn't you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites