Are we really all just puppets with hands shoved up our arses?

[DreamBliss]

I am struggling with something.

 

How many times have I said those words I wonder?

 

I have finished reading Joel Goldsmith's, "Art of Spiritual Healing." He is one of those teachers lumped into the "New Thought" movement at the turn of last century.

 

The book was very hard to read, and I found it troubling. But I didn't get the sense I was being lied to. Quite the opposite. Mr. Goldsmith spoke very authoritatively, and it made sense with what I have learned in my own experience.

 

The whole point of the book, its theme, is that God does the healing. God does the creating. Everything is done by God. That is how Jesus worked. Essentially we must come to an inner God-realization and open ourselves to God working through us.

 

While God was the name used, the book was not specifically Christian, and you can probably substitute God with whatever name you have for the energy that powers everything, I call it the Source.

 

The book details the process of what "New Thought" folks called a Treatment. Someone comes to you and asks for a Treatment. You forget their name or what they want treated. You come before God, inside, and you focus on some aspect of God. If someone has come for a Treatment of sickness you come before God by realizing this energy is perfect health. You focus on the nature of God, there is some sort of release, and then you are done.

 

What bothers me about this is that it puts me back under God's thumb, and worse, seems to say that I do not really exist. That the energy that gives my physical body life is God. My identity, who I am, as I used to say who I truly am inside, does not really exist. Basically we are puppets and God's hand is what gives up life and movement.

 

We do not create, God creates through us. We do not heal, God heals through us. This idea seems to reinforce the idea which I have encountered in other spiritual teachings, that our real purpose is to become one with God. Self-annihilation, God as Brahman.

 

I find this worse than the Christian idea of Heaven VS Hell. I may have said some of this elsewhere, if I did I apologize for repeating myself. Anyhow It used to be that I could think of nothing worse than staying in one place for all eternity. There is the whole afterlife to explore, and I would like to do that.

 

Well this idea, that all I do is become energy and cease to exist in any form I can move about in, that I merge with God and disappear - well this is worse. To add insult to injury I am told this is really the purpose of my physical existence, and that of myself I can do nothing.

 

There is one problem with this idea. Who created the ego? Because if Joel Goldsmith is right, man does not create anything, so God had to have created the ego. Why? Why create an ego for us, so we can be separate from God, if indeed were were one with this energy in the first place, only to tell us that we have no power outside of God and are supposed to be one with this energy? It makes no sense.

 

When I left the Christian faith I liked that I no longer had to deal with God's Will. I was in charge of my life here on earth. There was a path I could follow to my true life, but it was my choice. I chose to follow it. Furthermore I could manifest what I needed here in the physical realm, whether it be an object or healing. I felt like I had power.

 

I am not power-crazed or anything. It was just nice to know that in a world where I could not control the actions of others, where there were things I had no power to change in society, I could at the very least choose what to think, choose to see things the way I wanted them to be, and know that this would affect the reality I experienced. I had a way to change things in my life I wanted to change, and I didn't need social prestige or money.

 

But now this, and I have to apply it. I have to try it. Because if I was truly in charge of my life, I would not be living where I am now. This is not a conscious decision. I do not want to be here in this tiny room, in a place where I am surrounded by Christians, where I have little or no social or spiritual opportunities. Obviously changing my thinking patterns, changing my thoughts, has done little to change my reality, beyond making money come to me easier, for which I am grateful.

 

Now I have to figure out how to become God-realized, to allow God to work through me. If this is how Jesus operated, I want to operate in the same way. I want to test this out, apply it, live it, become it and then decide if it has proven to be experientially true.

 

Tonight I had a thought that inspired this thread. Jesus wept. He then resurrected Lazarus from the dead. If this really happened it tells me something. God, or as Jesus referred to Him, His Father, didn't give a flying you-know-what about Lazarus. Didn't care, didn't not care, beyond those feelings. But Jesus did.

 

If Jesus was allowing His Father to work through him, then that tells me that Jesus still had his personality, his identity. Something beyond the ego and its identification with the physical body labelled Jesus. Jesus made the choice who to raise up. This was His decision. His will. But His Father did the raising, if Goldsmith is right.

 

So perhaps becoming one with God does not mean self-annihilation? There is still something there, an identity, a presence, that is unique to each person? If so it wouldn't be so bad to be a puppet with God's hand up his arse.

 

Are we all just puppets, just God playing at being the multitude of forms in the physical realm, with nothing left but God after the form has ceased to function, or is there something more to us? If we are waves in the Source ocean, when we subside is there anything left of us at all, or is all that we think we are just an illusion, with God being the only reality?

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited March 20, 2014 by DreamBliss

[Infinity]

Saw a youtube clip on Mooji last night and he was talking about this. He said among other things that when we inquire who we are we realise we are the watcher the consciousness not the doer.

 

For a while I have realised that I am a figment of my own imagination and in my view I am using my energy to create myself and when I cease to create myself through consciously stopping the internal dialogue and imaginings that is when I feel the energy.

 

I think being one with God is not self-annihilation but annihilation of the fake self. As what we are is not what we imagine ourselves or describe ourselves to be. We all see the same things but perceive it subjectively.

 

I am also of the opinion that the description and imagination should be viewed as tools which can be used to alter our perception and help fly free from the subjective and objective world to our true nature which I understand to be unfathomable and yet fully known and understood, Tao all things and nothing. Inclusive and exclusive.

 

Is there an identity presence that is unique to all persons you ask? In Tao all things exist, the mind has all the questions and the heart has all the answers so someone said. Love and acceptance I understand to be the key.

 

Sometimes I realise my logic is illogical!

 

What are your thoughts you ask?

 

Was reading Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience 'http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html' and this always stayed with me. He observes 'So creation is God exploring God's Self through every way imaginable, in an ongoing, infinite exploration through every one of us. Through every piece of hair on your head, through every leaf on every tree, through every atom, God is exploring God's Self, the great "I am".' and I guess he/she is also exploring through every thought too!

 

∞

Edited March 20, 2014 by Infinity

[Marblehead]

The best way to test a concept about living is to consciously apply it to our "real" life experiences. If it is functional and it feels natural then it is valid. If you have to force it and it constantly presents conflicts then it is invalid for "you".

[de_paradise]

If you supply the intent (to heal) then this is your intent as a seperate ego, even if you invoke or completely rely on God to make things happen. We want to feel that we are more in charge of things, but I dont think its the case that we are really in charge of much except one little piece-- in the same way we do not create the air we breathe, or created our capacity to breath. We just do our little bit. Before, when doing healings I somehow cognized it as I doing a healing, but now, I cognize it as me surrendering to the universe that heals towards my intent.

[Jeff]

Hi Dreambliss,

 

You have raised a very profound question on one's true nature. In Christian terms, I offer the following scripture for your consideration...

 

 

1 John 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

John 14:10-17

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.15 If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, See here! or See there! For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

Psalms 82:5-6

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

 

Best wishes.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Jeff

[yabyum24]

What are your thoughts?

[soaring crane]

The information in the thread with the 7 7 facts that sound like fiction mentions something that has been very significant for me for quite a while. I'm talking about the 90 percent of the body being of non-human origin. Ninety percent of us is bacteria and and other microbial life.

 

And these 'critters' have an intelligence, an intelligence so vast that it permeates the entire planet. I assume they have an agenda, too.

 

When I look for 'God' these dsys, I look inside.

[Jetsun]

It is the egoic consciousness which perceives being united with god in a powerless dictatorial sort of way, like having you strings pulled, but that is a projection of that form of consciousness onto the unknown as a mechanism to try to preserve its own survival.

 

It might be true that we are not actually in control but that isn't necessarily a bad thing in ultimate reality except from a specific constricting point of view not rooted in truth. If there is no seperate you then there is no you to be controlled or manipulated, there is just life happening.

 

Perhaps its more helpful to switch it around, to say that being united with god gives you the ultimate freedom, while when perception is from the egoic state we are being controlled like a puppet by our egoic habits, patterns and old outdated imprints.

[Marblehead]

The information in the thread with the 7 7 facts that sound like fiction mentions something that has been very significant for me for quite a while. I'm talking about the 90 percent of the body being of non-human origin. Ninety percent of us is bacteria and and other microbial life.

 

And these 'critters' have an intelligence, an intelligence so vast that it permeates the entire planet. I assume they have an agenda, too.

 

When I look for 'God' these dsys, I look inside.

I watched a documentary last night, "How the Earth made Man", and it spoke to what you just posted.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Marblehead

[SonOfTheGods]

While God was the name used,

.....................

 

What are your thoughts?

"god" =™, ®, ©, -but NOT a name

[Infinity]

I totally agree with Jet sun's observation 'It is the egoic consciousness which perceives being united with god in a powerless dictatorial sort of way, like having you strings pulled'. And I would add the more we act true to our source the more authentic and empowered we feel and the less we feel like we are being manipulated. Nice topic. :-)

 

∞

[Marblehead]

And I would add the more we act true to our source the more authentic and empowered we feel and the less we feel like we are being manipulated. Nice topic. :-) ∞

Great addition, I think.

[9th]

The neo-non-dualists are a curiously dualistic bunch sometimes, especially in the way they seem to separate things. As always, look to the intent rather than the content. And unfortunately, simply claiming to be beyond karma does not necessarily make it so.

 

Watching is the root of doing. Consciousness is at the root of phenomena in general. Movement is a virtue of time and space. To say "the watcher is not the doer" is overly simplistic reductionism, and practically meaningless - in much the same way as saying "different colors are not the same".

 

Now, if you were to speak of the extremely conditional "intelligence" of modern man, via language and "education" as opposed to the natural intelligence of DNA itself - that is another matter. Have you been taught how to digest your food? Did you have to learn how to make your heart pump blood through your body? And so forth. So arguments about who or what is "doing" in this case takes a different tone - which is much more valuable for exploring, imo.

 

shining lights

spinning shapes

and endless hues

seeing this

I touch the fire

Ow!

it burns

[Infinity]

To say "the watcher is not the doer" may we'll be overly simplistic reductionism and when I wrote that I did not feel I nailed Mooji's mood or meaning exactly, but I felt the comment he made chimed with the tone of this thread and saw a glimmer of his meaning.

 

 

My background on this is that many years ago my forehead energetically cracked open and seemed to fold back where upon I was just consciousness in an object less world (no subject no object?), I did not even feel the energy at that point as it seemed to have vibrated to Infinity. This came after strenous thoughtless focus and was not an effortless 'natural' process for me but a repression of my mind although it was natural in that it revealed or arose naturally uncontrived without any 'thought'. I hold my hands up as I am not self realised which as I understand it to be an effortless understanding and being of ones nature and thus cannot fully comment on the real state although I feel I do have some insight.

 

 

I get the gist of your comment I think about the workings of DNA being natural or as I see your meaning (unconcious to us/without effort). And the working of DNA are natural and intelligent but they are also work under conditions which surely makes them conditioned? And it could be argued that the working of human reason are natural and intelligent albeit conditioned too. I know that human reason is not always seemingly intelligent but DNA does not always get it right! Just exploring...

 

All my best,

 

∞

Edited March 20, 2014 by Infinity

[Stosh]

For some people , the belief in a controlling god , is a comfort. It assuages lonliness, confusion, doubt , bestows meaning and purpose etc , it is a response to the ultimate question. But the way that religions usually describe things oftem makes no sense and undermines the basic message that is potentially a pleasant prospect.

If you can hold the good part you are a step ahead , but , to have the confidence and understanding to refute that you have knowlege of what you really just do not know at the same time , without just lying to yourself.. is rather tricky.

What makes you so sure the author, of some book or other, has your relationship with god worked out so that he can trace your destiny? Listening to him , may not be as convincing as embracing your own sentiments about god , the meaning of everything , what happens after death etc. Or you might fall into the trap of trusting it BECAUSE you did not come up with it.

What he does provide for you, is some leadership which implies that its OK to have a relationship with God , a Creator ,etc. But beyond that you shouldnt take any of what he says as 'gospel'

Pardon my crass expression , but if what he says disturbs you , tell him to go take a flying leap ( figuratively speaking) since its not for him to unsettle what could be good. Take ownership.

None of that is my dao now , but it once was, and if things had been different ...

Edited March 20, 2014 by Stosh

[9th]

I get the gist of your comment I think about the workings of DNA being natural or as I see your meaning (unconcious to us/without effort). And the working of DNA are natural and intelligent but they are also work under conditions which surely makes them conditioned? And it could be argued that the working of human reason are natural and intelligent albeit conditioned too. I know that human reason is not always seemingly intelligent but DNA does not always get it right! Just exploring...

 

You are getting closer to it, but everything that exists is conditioned in some way, in the sense of all things being inter-dependent. That is the nature of existence itself - conditional relationships of various forces in various permutations. Such variety encompasses an incomprehensible spectrum, on an unimaginably vast scale. So, you can say with great certainty that some things are vastly less conditional than others, some much less, some a little less, some a little more, some much more, so on and so on. This is why I would regard modern man's educational understanding of the world as vastly more narrow and limited than the understanding of physical life itself which has evolved and adapted to the Earth over the past millions of years. In other words, our body is "infinitely" more intelligent than our rationality - even though nothing is "always" "absolutely" right.

 

That which is entirely aimless, and entirely unmanifest is not conditional, and as such is not an experience or a state of being. We could talk about the ground of reality, but what is the point? Such transcendental philosophizing and theorizing and so forth is, again, practically meaningless - in the sense that when it comes to self-cultivation, what we are concerned with are practical matters. Practice of living methods, not just static ideas and statements. Walk, not talk.

 

Ideas that mooji espouses (like the watcher is not the doer) tie back into the neo-advaita philosophy that there is nothing to practice, nothing to learn, dont do anything, everything is already perfect - which I disagree with.

 

IMO, an actual realization of the untouched and untouchable observer is an essential gateway, or portal. It is not a goal in itself, or a stopping point. It can be treated as such, but ultimately it is a temporary dalliance... and one which could potentially come at great cost. However this may be a necessary lesson for some.

[Infinity]

 

Ideas that mooji espouses (like the watcher is not the doer) tie back into the neo-advaita philosophy that there is nothing to practice, nothing to learn, dont do anything, everything is already perfect - which I disagree with.

I mostly agree with 'neo-advaita' as you put it and disagree. I agree because if I just give up and accept this moment / myself I can logically see that I would be 'me' completely and at peace and 'self realised' as myself so to speak and with that acceptance I would have less thoughts and thus I would imagine eventually the energy 'I' experienced before would naturally arise and I would naturally reside as consciousness in an object less 'world' as 'I' experienced 'previously' (no observer no observed??). I can see that doing nothing 'being' leads to the reality of me. I disagree with more because of the difficulty in language as it seems I have to cultivate to get there ie (do something) not use my energy to create the illusory imagined identity (who I think I am). I have to do without doing. Or maybe I can just understand 'realise' and it drops away? I am not sure how it can be a gateway as when we are what we are how can we become more how can we be more than our reality.

 

I note your comments about not talking about 'the ground of reality' and may have touched on this but only because this is where my logic takes me and then has to stop as there is nowhere else to go. And I agree walk not talk but seeing you disagree with 'neo-advaita' 'everything is perfect' I have to follow it to know what you mean. Still exploring but got to get busy now and the sun has long since gone down.

 

∞

Edited March 20, 2014 by Infinity

[soaring crane]

I watched a documentary last night, "How the Earth mad Man", and it spoke to what you just posted.

Ahmunna look forit, thx

[TheExaltedRonin]

Just exist man. Don't worry about it. No one thing, person, voice etc. Can tell YOU what is.

 

You live, create, die, or move on. Or all of that.

[Dainin]

You're It.

[Marblehead]

Tag.

[soaring crane]

Guten Tag to you, too :-)

[silent thunder]

I'm on record as not believing that we exert a lot of control over our lives with our apparent choices in life.

I find the conditions of life and our nature to predispose most events without our cognition on any real meaningful level.

 

Wu wei is a tidal influence of massive impact.

[Marblehead]

I'm on record as not believing that we exert a lot of control over our lives with our apparent choices in life.

I find the conditions of life and our nature to predispose most events without our cognition on any real meaningful level.

 

Wu wei is a tidal influence of massive impact.

I will agree with you if you are talking about all of our instincts as well as all our (non)actions resulting from what we have been taught by others so often that these (uconscious) (non)acts become like instincts.

 

This is why we should try to understand why we do the things we do and why we don't act in other conditions.

 

But let's be careful. Many things we do may appear to be wu wei but are only habituated responses.

[silent thunder]

I will agree with you if you are talking about all of our instincts as well as all our (non)actions resulting from what we have been taught by others so often that these (uconscious) (non)acts become like instincts.

 

This is why we should try to understand why we do the things we do and why we don't act in other conditions.

 

But let's be careful. Many things we do may appear to be wu wei but are only habituated responses.

Yup, I agree, care must be taken.

One of the reasons I cultivate is to gain awareness of that tidal influence.