Are we really all just puppets with hands shoved up our arses?

[9th]

All the discussion is fine and good, but the basic point that I find so often overlooked is that you need to be aware of unconsciousness before you can approach it and begin to deal with it. Consciousness, in this sense of the word, is co-created intentionally by the person in relation to their environment, its not an automatic thing like a bodily reflex. This is why it is spoken of as "cultivation". Service to the cosmos is mandatory for everyone and everything, but there is also a great deal of choice available between the lines, if you know where to look. A fully operational bridge between microcosm and macrocosm is an intentional endeavor. Squaring the circle requires a specific kind of cooperation that engages the most basic and fundamental aspects of awareness in conjunction with the most basic and fundamental aspects of phenomena. It is not a necessary process in terms of maintaining physical reality. It is a choice. It requires intent. Creativity is a partnership that is enacted through specific efforts of compromise. Even if you want to be absolutely passive, its not going to happen. Beyond that, growing into the changes, according harmoniously with events - such things are like a form of art.

 

People can get very confused by ideas like wu wei when taken purely as theoretical concepts rather than living experience. That is why I try to discourage pontification as much as possible, especially when it comes to certain kinds of philosophical and metaphysical ideas. When you are personally dealing with this kind of thing on a moment-by-moment basis, then you will understand it - much later your ideas and descriptions of it will follow suit and become useful to others. In the meantime, highly elaborate conceptual discussion often serves an entirely different purpose.. distraction, entertainment, self-importance, etc.

[9th]

[Infinity]

Thought this was apt, someone said 'You are only free when you choose your prison'

 

∞

Edited March 23, 2014 by Infinity

[Marblehead]

That is actually truer than it appears to be.

[Rara]

I am struggling with something.

 

How many times have I said those words I wonder?

 

I have finished reading Joel Goldsmith's, "Art of Spiritual Healing." He is one of those teachers lumped into the "New Thought" movement at the turn of last century.

 

The book was very hard to read, and I found it troubling. But I didn't get the sense I was being lied to. Quite the opposite. Mr. Goldsmith spoke very authoritatively, and it made sense with what I have learned in my own experience.

 

The whole point of the book, its theme, is that God does the healing. God does the creating. Everything is done by God. That is how Jesus worked. Essentially we must come to an inner God-realization and open ourselves to God working through us.

 

While God was the name used, the book was not specifically Christian, and you can probably substitute God with whatever name you have for the energy that powers everything, I call it the Source.

 

The book details the process of what "New Thought" folks called a Treatment. Someone comes to you and asks for a Treatment. You forget their name or what they want treated. You come before God, inside, and you focus on some aspect of God. If someone has come for a Treatment of sickness you come before God by realizing this energy is perfect health. You focus on the nature of God, there is some sort of release, and then you are done.

 

What bothers me about this is that it puts me back under God's thumb, and worse, seems to say that I do not really exist. That the energy that gives my physical body life is God. My identity, who I am, as I used to say who I truly am inside, does not really exist. Basically we are puppets and God's hand is what gives up life and movement.

 

We do not create, God creates through us. We do not heal, God heals through us. This idea seems to reinforce the idea which I have encountered in other spiritual teachings, that our real purpose is to become one with God. Self-annihilation, God as Brahman.

 

I find this worse than the Christian idea of Heaven VS Hell. I may have said some of this elsewhere, if I did I apologize for repeating myself. Anyhow It used to be that I could think of nothing worse than staying in one place for all eternity. There is the whole afterlife to explore, and I would like to do that.

 

Well this idea, that all I do is become energy and cease to exist in any form I can move about in, that I merge with God and disappear - well this is worse. To add insult to injury I am told this is really the purpose of my physical existence, and that of myself I can do nothing.

 

There is one problem with this idea. Who created the ego? Because if Joel Goldsmith is right, man does not create anything, so God had to have created the ego. Why? Why create an ego for us, so we can be separate from God, if indeed were were one with this energy in the first place, only to tell us that we have no power outside of God and are supposed to be one with this energy? It makes no sense.

 

When I left the Christian faith I liked that I no longer had to deal with God's Will. I was in charge of my life here on earth. There was a path I could follow to my true life, but it was my choice. I chose to follow it. Furthermore I could manifest what I needed here in the physical realm, whether it be an object or healing. I felt like I had power.

 

I am not power-crazed or anything. It was just nice to know that in a world where I could not control the actions of others, where there were things I had no power to change in society, I could at the very least choose what to think, choose to see things the way I wanted them to be, and know that this would affect the reality I experienced. I had a way to change things in my life I wanted to change, and I didn't need social prestige or money.

 

But now this, and I have to apply it. I have to try it. Because if I was truly in charge of my life, I would not be living where I am now. This is not a conscious decision. I do not want to be here in this tiny room, in a place where I am surrounded by Christians, where I have little or no social or spiritual opportunities. Obviously changing my thinking patterns, changing my thoughts, has done little to change my reality, beyond making money come to me easier, for which I am grateful.

 

Now I have to figure out how to become God-realized, to allow God to work through me. If this is how Jesus operated, I want to operate in the same way. I want to test this out, apply it, live it, become it and then decide if it has proven to be experientially true.

 

Tonight I had a thought that inspired this thread. Jesus wept. He then resurrected Lazarus from the dead. If this really happened it tells me something. God, or as Jesus referred to Him, His Father, didn't give a flying you-know-what about Lazarus. Didn't care, didn't not care, beyond those feelings. But Jesus did.

 

If Jesus was allowing His Father to work through him, then that tells me that Jesus still had his personality, his identity. Something beyond the ego and its identification with the physical body labelled Jesus. Jesus made the choice who to raise up. This was His decision. His will. But His Father did the raising, if Goldsmith is right.

 

So perhaps becoming one with God does not mean self-annihilation? There is still something there, an identity, a presence, that is unique to each person? If so it wouldn't be so bad to be a puppet with God's hand up his arse.

 

Are we all just puppets, just God playing at being the multitude of forms in the physical realm, with nothing left but God after the form has ceased to function, or is there something more to us? If we are waves in the Source ocean, when we subside is there anything left of us at all, or is all that we think we are just an illusion, with God being the only reality?

 

What are your thoughts?

If it doesn't make sense to you, discard it! Unless you see God with your very own eyes, I can't see how this can be of any use to you. And if you do end up seeing God, is it God or your influenced mind?

 

If this is all true though, so much for free will!

[Rara]

Don't forget also that Jesus was apparently hand-picked.

[silent thunder]

Thought this was apt, someone said 'You are only free when you choose your prison'

 

∞

You will know how free you are or not when someone tries to open your prison door. -- me

[Infinity]

You will know how free you are or not when someone tries to open your prison door. -- me

 

When you have chosen your prison your are not a prisoner and so there are no 'prison' doors to open..?

 

∞

[zanshin]

When you have chosen your prison your are not a prisoner and so there are no 'prison' doors to open..? ∞

Sometimes we build our own prison, fortunately I'm a really crappy carpenter.

[sunchild]

life is beautiful because you're only as free as you want to be

[Jadespear]

I am struggling with something.

 

How many times have I said those words I wonder?

 

I have finished reading Joel Goldsmith's, "Art of Spiritual Healing." He is one of those teachers lumped into the "New Thought" movement at the turn of last century.

 

The book was very hard to read, and I found it troubling. But I didn't get the sense I was being lied to. Quite the opposite. Mr. Goldsmith spoke very authoritatively, and it made sense with what I have learned in my own experience.

 

The whole point of the book, its theme, is that God does the healing. God does the creating. Everything is done by God. That is how Jesus worked. Essentially we must come to an inner God-realization and open ourselves to God working through us.

 

While God was the name used, the book was not specifically Christian, and you can probably substitute God with whatever name you have for the energy that powers everything, I call it the Source.

 

The book details the process of what "New Thought" folks called a Treatment. Someone comes to you and asks for a Treatment. You forget their name or what they want treated. You come before God, inside, and you focus on some aspect of God. If someone has come for a Treatment of sickness you come before God by realizing this energy is perfect health. You focus on the nature of God, there is some sort of release, and then you are done.

 

What bothers me about this is that it puts me back under God's thumb, and worse, seems to say that I do not really exist. That the energy that gives my physical body life is God. My identity, who I am, as I used to say who I truly am inside, does not really exist. Basically we are puppets and God's hand is what gives up life and movement.

 

We do not create, God creates through us. We do not heal, God heals through us. This idea seems to reinforce the idea which I have encountered in other spiritual teachings, that our real purpose is to become one with God. Self-annihilation, God as Brahman.

 

I find this worse than the Christian idea of Heaven VS Hell. I may have said some of this elsewhere, if I did I apologize for repeating myself. Anyhow It used to be that I could think of nothing worse than staying in one place for all eternity. There is the whole afterlife to explore, and I would like to do that.

 

Well this idea, that all I do is become energy and cease to exist in any form I can move about in, that I merge with God and disappear - well this is worse. To add insult to injury I am told this is really the purpose of my physical existence, and that of myself I can do nothing.

 

There is one problem with this idea. Who created the ego? Because if Joel Goldsmith is right, man does not create anything, so God had to have created the ego. Why? Why create an ego for us, so we can be separate from God, if indeed were were one with this energy in the first place, only to tell us that we have no power outside of God and are supposed to be one with this energy? It makes no sense.

 

When I left the Christian faith I liked that I no longer had to deal with God's Will. I was in charge of my life here on earth. There was a path I could follow to my true life, but it was my choice. I chose to follow it. Furthermore I could manifest what I needed here in the physical realm, whether it be an object or healing. I felt like I had power.

 

I am not power-crazed or anything. It was just nice to know that in a world where I could not control the actions of others, where there were things I had no power to change in society, I could at the very least choose what to think, choose to see things the way I wanted them to be, and know that this would affect the reality I experienced. I had a way to change things in my life I wanted to change, and I didn't need social prestige or money.

 

But now this, and I have to apply it. I have to try it. Because if I was truly in charge of my life, I would not be living where I am now. This is not a conscious decision. I do not want to be here in this tiny room, in a place where I am surrounded by Christians, where I have little or no social or spiritual opportunities. Obviously changing my thinking patterns, changing my thoughts, has done little to change my reality, beyond making money come to me easier, for which I am grateful.

 

Now I have to figure out how to become God-realized, to allow God to work through me. If this is how Jesus operated, I want to operate in the same way. I want to test this out, apply it, live it, become it and then decide if it has proven to be experientially true.

 

Tonight I had a thought that inspired this thread. Jesus wept. He then resurrected Lazarus from the dead. If this really happened it tells me something. God, or as Jesus referred to Him, His Father, didn't give a flying you-know-what about Lazarus. Didn't care, didn't not care, beyond those feelings. But Jesus did.

 

If Jesus was allowing His Father to work through him, then that tells me that Jesus still had his personality, his identity. Something beyond the ego and its identification with the physical body labelled Jesus. Jesus made the choice who to raise up. This was His decision. His will. But His Father did the raising, if Goldsmith is right.

 

So perhaps becoming one with God does not mean self-annihilation? There is still something there, an identity, a presence, that is unique to each person? If so it wouldn't be so bad to be a puppet with God's hand up his arse.

 

Are we all just puppets, just God playing at being the multitude of forms in the physical realm, with nothing left but God after the form has ceased to function, or is there something more to us? If we are waves in the Source ocean, when we subside is there anything left of us at all, or is all that we think we are just an illusion, with God being the only reality?

 

What are your thoughts?

.... 

 

dude - here are my thoughts - 

 

Before one use such words as God, Jesus, etc, in an intellectual inquiry - one must define what exactly these words mean to oneself. 

 

... as to the truth of it - here are my thoughts; your attitude and views are in large part determined, conditioned, and probabalistic  in their origin.  

 

I would suggest taking a step BACK - and looking at how you are defining things, as well as who you are ascribing cause too... 

[Fa Xin]

This was such a deep and interesting thread! Very cool!

 

It's a topic I struggle with as well.

 

Some days I pray to god for help. Other days I feel like I am god.

 

Mostly I feel like I am part of God, as we all are.

 

But now I feel like I'm just a loose conglomerate of bacteria and micro organisms. Thanks a lot TDB!

Edited February 9, 2017 by Fa Xin

[Jadespear]

.... 

 

dude - here are my thoughts - 

 

Before one use such words as God, Jesus, etc, in an intellectual inquiry - one must define what exactly these words mean to oneself. 

 

... as to the truth of it - here are my thoughts; your attitude and views are in large part determined, conditioned, and probabalistic  in their origin.  

 

I would suggest taking a step BACK - and looking at how you are defining things, as well as who you are ascribing cause too... 

 

 

...you should check out first and foremost what you mean by "ego".  Because, if there is any fact that we can find solace in - it is that we are here, and because we are here, there is nothing "wrong" or unclean about us - in any way. 

 

...The "ego" consciousness that we all possess exists for a purpose.   It is not like some impure thing, that is to be discarded in order to see something better, or be replaced by something else....... because those things don't ever happen.

 

... the "ego" consciousness serves as one's focal point and frame of reference for all phenomenon.  For - if you were no longer to exist with an ego.... you would not be.   In order for you to exist and understand things as an incarnated being the ego must be present.  There is no other way, or force, by which one could use to avail oneself of understanding with a point of reference. 

 

... and furthermore - "consciousness" is the state of being of conscious.  It is not everything. 

 

..." consciousness" is a collection of elements, forces, and dynamics that are present in, move through, and alter that state.   One's consciousness is for more or less of explanation - always in flux.  You can't change that.   It's not possible.  So why try?

 

... so long as you have your own " ego " consciosuness the rest of the world and all phenomenon outside yourself may appear as separate from you, or in relation to you, or in contradiction to your ideas, or against you physically.   All of these impressions are due to you and what you have put forth as true onto the field of actual consciousness.   Anything that you think, do, or say, will come back to you as part of the cause and effect law of karma.

 

... there is absolute truth in our universe and the way it functions, there is absolute truth in your being, that is not changeable.

 

... it is the very fact of the presence of this absolute truth that religions attempts to reconcile and build an entire dogmatic belief structure around. it is the very fact of the presence of it - that beckons you to understand it. 

 

It is there.  You are it, and it - is you.