thelerner

Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

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Doubtful. This forum was founded by disillusioned "ex-pats" from his Healing Tao, so I wouldn't say he is regarded quite highly by anyone here...

 

As far as "real" qi feeling like electricity, I don't know? It is true that you can talk to 3 Daoist peers in China, and you will get 3 different opinions on Daoist training methods, though...

.

Does it make sense to say qi feels like qi. Our Brains interpret it to feel like one thing or another? Hot, cold, magnetic, electric, heavy, light etc.

 

It is so because we don't have a frame of reference to feel qi as qi.

 

Also just like jing is transformed to qi, qi is vibrated and condensed and converted into Jin. Jin is further refined and sped up and made into Shen.

 

What we feel is the qi, what others feel is Jin. We cannot feel our Jin and others can't feel our qi.

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If a member of staff could be so kind as to delete my membership here. I feel I have come to the end of my willingness to discuss things on here. All the best to everyone on here, may you find what you are looking for. 

kinda thin skinned.  Which is too bad, its always nice to have experienced people here.  Also, as I recall memberships aren't deleted you just don't post here any more. 

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May 2014, and it was time for us to fly over to China.

Dr Jiang Feng

 

After this we all had individual sessions with Dr Jiang to discuss any treatment required, and if herbal, what the cost involved may be. Special chi infused herbs were required by 4 of us, some required regular herbs as their imbalance hadn’t resulted in a full blockage yet. (An excess imbalance normally causes blockages if not treated early). The cost was kindly allowed to be settled over 12 months, making treatment affordable to everyone who needed it.

 

 

 

Further Training Opportunities

 

After discussion with Grady, I am looking to arrange another trip to China in late October early November this year (2014). Anyone is welcome, those who would like to train, those who seek treatment or even those who just want to see if it’s truly real.

 

There is no cost in the form of tuition,

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No, you just wanted to argue for the sake of arguing

 

No I don't, which is why I was quite happy to let that trail of debate go quiet. But I also don't like having my perspective intentionally misrepresented, so I'll reply one last time.

 

 

 I spoke specifically of a process in meditation, you decided to talk of all meditation practices and this and that.

 

Actually you worded it in such a way as to imply that the conversion of jing into electric chi is the only form or goal of meditation, specifically:

 

 

I very much am aware it means that most systems and most traditions taught worldwide, do not have the foundation methods correct.

 

Why do people always try to make meditation so complicated. It's very systematic in my opinion. First, you develop/activate your dantian, when you have a dantian, you have the facility to refine Jing into Qi. This qi is then stored in the dantian, and used as your body requires. Refining more qi than what your body uses is how you fill it up.

 

And so on.

 

 

You argued points that were not even closely relevant and nothing to do with experience. You just wanted to have people see on here, how much you know from reading books, and how you will stand up to someone thinking they can go against the grain the with the truth found from experience.

 

You're making a pretty big pile of assumptions.

 

I would assume I have personally upset you, I mean how dare one man say such things. I get the same reaction no matter where I go. People don't like to hear the truth. The lie is so much better for the ego.

 

And here you're making more assumptions, though at least you acknowledge it. Quite frankly, I have no idea who you are and your opinion doesn't mean enough to me to influence how I feel - I'm quite happy with my practices and not personally upset by anything except this latest post you made which completely and intentionally misrepresents my viewpoint.

 

 

So for you dear friend: Refining jing into qi, even though it uses the same substance, gives vastly different end products. Some have qi that are electrical, some have qi that is hot, some have qi that gives them superpowers. Some have qi that vibrates slightly and other have qi that makes them last longer in bed. 

 

I didn't say that at all. I said that there are many methods of meditation which have nothing at all to do with refining jing, and that refining jing isn't the only source of qi, and that qi isn't a reference to a specific energy produced specifically by refining jing, but is a universal term for vital energy. You even said yourself that you knowingly redefined it:

 

 

The energy we absorb from nature is called qi. This qi is not the same as the qi referred to when speaking of Jing refined into qi. I prefer to call what we absorb from nature as energy.

 

You can prefer to call it whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world should conform to your personal definitions. And even your own definition is contradictory - compare the first and seconded bolded part of the quote.

 

 

The dantian in different people feels different too. For most they describe the dantian sensations the same way that I experienced chakra activation. But again, this is fine, dantians, chakras, it doesn't matter. They all do the same thing the end of the day. You just meditate on your stomach area for a while, and bam, you have qi and you have a functioning dantian. 

 

etc etc etc.

 

Now I agreed with you. I hope this sounds more to your liking.

 

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I said none of that.

 

What I did say is that there are entire traditions of meditation going back thousands of years which don't even work with the dantien(s) - obviously their results are different, but that doesn't mean they don't achieve results. If I swim laps for an hour every day, my body is going to develop differently to the way it would if I lifted heavy weights every day, it doesn't mean it isn't developing, just that different changes are taking place as a result of different processes being undertaken.

 

I also said that there are different varieties of Qi (or whatever the preferred term is in the relevant culture) in every system of meditation out there, I've never met, corresponded with or even heard or a teacher who claims that the term "Qi" refers to a single, specific energy.

 

Does this mean that every system of training found from every teacher and book and DVD is valid? Of course not, that would be absurd, the degree of fraud out there in the field is well known and there are many well known individuals whom I believe are likely either frauds or self-deluded (of course having never met these individuals, I cannot say for sure). But that doesn't mean that what is real is limited to what you yourself have personally have experienced.

 

There's a middle ground between "everyone who writes a book on qigong is a master with the secrets to the highest levels of attainment" and "everybody is a fraud unless they've personally farted a thunderbolt into my face."

 

 

If you had started your reply to me with the words "In my personal practice and through my own experience I have found", then I would have taken you more seriously. But no, you didn't want to contribute, you just wanted to argue with this "wanker" who comes on here and tells us something different to what we so easily believe.

 

You're putting words in my mouth again, I certainly never swore at you. I do, however, think you're projecting - you come across as having argued your viewpoint on meditation so constantly that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you on any aspect of it holds the same viewpoints as all other people who've disagreed with you.

 

I suggest you take a deep breath, count to ten, calm down, then read my post and take in what I actually said, and not what you're projecting onto the screen through a haze of anger. Or at least have the politeness to ignore what someone says if you dislike it instead of putting words in their mouth and misrepresenting them.

 

Either way, I'm going to stop responding to this chain of discussion, as I don't see it leading anywhere productive.

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I must ask, are you a troll, what is your purpose to posting on here. You have not contributed anything.

Many of us think he is a troll... or a sophist.

 

Hi Rudolf, It is not needed to leave, Daobums follows this rhythm always. But, you will find people willing to talk.

 

I recommend you to read this thread:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/36011-wen-and-wu-and-the-artful-application-of-words/

 

Also, Taoist Texts was debunked here:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38856-riding-the-phoenix-to-penglai/

So, I assume he was trying to seem smart with a new member.

For further debunking you have:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39105-neidan-for-dummies/page-4

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Many of us think he is a troll... or a sophist.

Dear Damdao;)

 

thanks for thinking about me. Because I do not think about you guys at all, so i am touched. I understand you try to insult me here, which is all good. You did a good job on the 'troll' it is mildly insulting indeed. No cigar on sophist thou. You see in English 'a sophist' is not an insult, may be it is an insult in Argentinian but still, better luck next time.

 

Anyway i understand you went to a seminar in Bangladesh to learn all about the electrical dantians.  How did it go? Were you zapped by one? Do you have one now yourself? When you will start teach others how to have a electrical dantian? What voltage you plan for? Please tell me all about these electrifying topics.

 

Regards, TT

 

PS. if you have picked any Bangladeshi insults while on your seminar in Bangladesh feel free to use those, at least you will get something useful for your money ;) 

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Writing as the guy who started the thread- Please keep it on subject: Working with the lower Dan Tien.

 

Thanks

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I want to wish you all the best in your training and a good day.

 

And likewise. Perhaps what we simply have is a failure to communicate - I'd like to think so.

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On 29/12/2013 at 10:57 PM, ChiDragon said:

Yes!

When you are doing the reverse breathing, then it is the opposite. Thus 氣沈丹田 (sink chi to the Dan Tien) is still applies.

 

So forgive me if I'm horribly wrong but does that mean that 'filling' up your dantien is more to do with abdominal expansion/contraction than moving your breath further towards your L-dantien? 

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Posted (edited)

I followed some instruction in Damo Mitchells MCO course but when I have succeeded to gather some type of chi in the LDT, I feel a little sick when I direct it to tailbone and spine, as Mitchell teaches that accumulated chi should be directed there, but it feels much better to just let the chi go upwards the body by itself. Am I doing something wrong? 

 

It feels now that the accumulated chi is starting to go to the spine without any effort by concious mind, so I feel a little sick even now.

Edited by salaam123

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5 hours ago, salaam123 said:

but when I have succeeded to gather some type of chi in the LDT, I feel a little sick when I direct it to tailbone and spine


Probably directing it too much. 
 

It takes a couple of years to build up enough Qi in the LDT for the mco practice to work. 
 

At that stage it ‘overflows’ almost by itself into the Du channel, just the slightest hint will be enough.

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7 hours ago, salaam123 said:

It feels now that the accumulated chi is starting to go to the spine without any effort by concious mind, so I feel a little sick even now.

 

Authentic methods on the Qi accumulation in regard to the MCO opening have had nothing to do with breath/mind work at all. All such the methods are based on post haven and "muddy" Qi and if you take it up by intent it can harm your energy and balance. 

Authentic methods are based on pre heaven Qi cultivation only. No books, videos, articles, qigong methods can help you establish MCO

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Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2021 at 11:59 PM, Antares said:

Authentic methods on the Qi accumulation in regard to the MCO opening have had nothing to do with breath/mind work at all. All such the methods are based on post haven and "muddy" Qi and if you take it up by intent it can harm your energy and balance. 

Authentic methods are based on pre heaven Qi cultivation only. No books, videos, articles, qigong methods can help you establish MCO

 

Where did you get this stuff? It sounds like skillful hyperbole, although it's not entirely wrong.

 

Your last sentence is flawed: There in fact are valid Qigong methods (including videos) that can activate the pre-heaven Qi and thus establish the correct MCO. Fragrant Qigong is one of these. If you had argued that MCO was rare and difficult to accomplish through any given commonly available method, then I would had agreed.

 

Yet, it's an undoubtedly classical error in some "Qigong" teachings that they would lead to accumulating so-called post-heaven Qi. This working is a bit like trying to subtly stir and force emotions to control each other, but it would only add more of unstable and emotionally volatile energy to one's body-mind. The orthodox way is to harmonize post-heaven Qi into peace (preliminary training through Neigong and ethics) and then proceed with accumulating pre-heaven Qi through tranquility (which may not be a trivial thing at all).

 

The difficulty with the term "Qigong" is that both post-heaven Qi harmonization and pre-heaven Qi accumulation can be covered with it. These tend to be separately trained and it's often fairly simple to guess into which category a practice belongs, but there exist truly holistic and esoteric arts like Fragrant Qigong which transcend common conceptualizations and categorizations. It just works.

 

There are more nuances to the discussion, but it's important to not be lead astray by simple catch-all labels and terms.

 

Edited by virtue
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Posted (edited)
On 21.08.2021 at 4:26 PM, virtue said:

Where did you get this stuff? It sounds like skillful hyperbole, although it's not entirely wrong.

 

Your last sentence is flawed: There in fact are valid Qigong methods (including videos) that can activate the pre-heaven Qi and thus establish the correct MCO. Fragrant Qigong is one of these.

 

In order to answer this question we need to be capable of discerning the diffeence between all daoist arts. What were the daoist methods in its core in the Past and what is it nowadays under the umbrella of "Qigong". What does the word Qi-Gong mean?

 

Ancient authentic daoist methods differ in nature from contemporary sets of qigong. For example, lets have a look at ancient forms and mechanics of well-known 8brocade and 5animals sets. I am sure that at the time of its creation these ones were quite different from what we have now. And we have dozens of its forms and all of them are executed in different manners. But most important difference is in underlying energy which these arts bring forth and what benefits people can get from it. 

Edited by Antares

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After 6 years nice to see this thread come back to life.  It's an important subject.

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Quick question on the subject, if anyone is actually reading this.

 

Can anyone add a little illumination on the phrase, "put your awareness in (or on)" (a specific place)?

 

Allow me to illustrate the confusion.   When you are "aware" of something you know it exists.  You can also apply it loosely to the word, "watch" or the concept of "noticing sensation."   All three of those are counter to one another in terms of mental focus.

 

Are we supposed to search mentally for a feeling in the internal location?  Are we supposed to visualize a place while trying to radar in on the spot (like a glowing small orb or something)?  Are we just aware it exists and trying to disengage all sensation or purposeful action?

 

Vague terms like "awareness" and such things are understood after they are experientially defined, however the method can also be described a whole lot better with more exact wording... even if the experience is really the answer.

 

Thanks much, have a wonderful weekend.


Stillwater

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3 hours ago, StillWater said:

Can anyone add a little illumination on the phrase, "put your awareness in (or on)" (a specific place)?

 

I have to say you're asking good questions and in a way that suggests to me that you'll get a lot out of the internal arts.

 

You're exploring the right things! While others want to know how to zap people with electric Qi, you want to know how to use your awareness. A breath of fresh air :)

 

Regarding the question - how to place awareness -  it's the nuance and subtlety of these seemingly small things that makes the difference in really progressing in these arts.

 

One classical instruction is Yi Shou Dantien "Guard your awareness in the dan tien".

 

Simple sentence (just 4 characters in Chinese) - but a whole depth of nuance that can get lost if taught by bad teachers.

 

Often when we talk of awareness in the arts we use the term Ting - which means listen. (not observe, watch, focus, imagine etc)

 

Why listen? Because it's a subtle sense... It's passive in nature - sounds come to you, you don't need to focus or direct anything. It's the sense that's least likely to be affected by delusion... it's not directional... it's not necessarily limited by distance (you could hear a thunder strike from many miles away without ever seeing the flash from the lightning).

 

Ting is the quality of awareness we want to be using most of the time in these arts.

 

Qi is a bit like a frightened deer at first... it might come and eat out of your hand if you're still, patient, quiet - but it will get spooked in a shot if you're not.

 

So how do you guard your awareness in the dantian?

 

You allow your awareness to sink of its own accord to your abdominal region...

 

If you 'focus' your attention there - that's too intense, it will frighten the deer off. Any mental movement will also 'frighten the deer' and send the awareness upwards... any visualisation, imagination, contrived focus or overly strong intention will lead the Qi and the awareness back up.

 

So instead you become aware of the space where your awareness is concentrated (usually around the head)... And just by becoming aware - and then slowly dial down your mental focus and you'll eventually reach just the right sweet spot when the awareness will begin to sink of its own accord - almost like it submits to gravity if left alone. Like a glass of muddy water - leave it alone for long enough and everything will settle.

 

Once it sinks to your abdomen, it starts interacting with your dantien.

 

But of course it's a bit difficult at first - so we need to cheat with some training wheels.

 

Find the level where your dantien is meant to be - a couple of finger-widths below the belly button. Stick your finger there and keep it there. This marks the height of your dantien.

 

Then pull up on your perineum a few times (squeeze it) - this marks the depth of where the dantien sits in your torso... So just trace a mental line up from your perineum and backwards from your finger poking your belly... where the lines meet - that's where your dantien should be.

 

At this stage you're not Yi Shou Dantien - you're just exploring... see if you can get a felt sense of that space. For most people it feels like a kind of  bermuda triangle - your awareness has nothing to work with - it's empty and blind... but keep trying.... keep reminding yourself where it is by cross referencing your perineum and your finger bellow your belly button.

 

Try it without the finger and the perineum for a bit... then bring them both back - notice if your attention lost the correct space. Go back and forth a few times.

 

Then take a seat on the edge of a chair or cross legged on the floor, straighten up and suspend your head from the Ding point (just an inch or two behind your crown towards the back of your head). Suspend that spot in space (don't pull up), and let your shoulders and all your flesh release and hang off that point. Like someone screwed a hook into your ding, suspended it from the ceiling and is using your body as a clothes hanger - everything hanging off. Find your sternum and allow it to release and sink downwards... it should be physically almost imperceptible in terms of movement (watch out because often when the sternum sinks, you'll lose the suspension from the ding... correct it!)

 

Hold the position and take a bit of time to relax, release your thoughts, release any tensions, let your breathing calm down and get deeper (by itself).

 

Then give the Yi Shou Dantien instructions a go:

1- find the location of your awareness (usually around the head, throat, sometimes heart area).

2- Aware of your awareness, begin to dial down your level of concentration - as if you're trying to drift off to sleep, but slower, more controlled, lighter. Don't go too far into daydream land - just enough that you notice that your awareness starts to sink downwards of its own accord.

3- Allow this to happen by itself, it will take a while, if you get distracted, go back to the first step.

4 - once the awareness is in your belly area just 'guard' it there, by keeping your mind free of thoughts, free of distractions - stable and unwavering.

 

Do not lead your awareness... do not try to find the exact spot... don't do what you were doing during the exploration phase. Having just explored - just the mere 'shadow' of that experience, in itself is a strong enough intention to help your awareness (with the quality of Ting, listening) sink of its own accord to the right spot.

 

It will almost certainly take many attempts to get it (perhaps dozens).

 

When you get it right, you'll start to (eventually perhaps) feel the dantien start to move, vibrate, get warm, spin etc...

 

That's how you correctly 'place your awareness' :)

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That is a truly awe inspiring post Freeform!  Thank you so much.

 

I'm going to work on this ... well.. I'm going to "not work" on this and allow it as suggested!


And thank you for the kind words of encouragement.  I'm not pursuing the internal arts... for years it seems they have been pursuing me and I'm finally answering the call.

 

Stillwater

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Having sat, reading, rereading, absorbing and trying to "get" this information Freeform, I think I have at least a grasp.


Effectively, instead of focusing on my center-point or DT, I should be initially dwelling on the discovery of where my focus actually is.  Where am I actually focusing, or maybe more precisely, where is my focus initiating.

 

Once settled into that, as I become more relaxed (I'm quite proficient at relaxing my body... for about 25 or 30 years I literally would lay in bed before sleep and let go of every part of me until I could no longer feel anything except my alert mind and breathing.. and just see where it would take me.  I never knew I was about 1 step away from meditating because I never really did anything else with it... but I truly learned to relax.  I can feel the slightest tension now and have an ability to absolutely feel tension and let it go and "sink" it down from my upper body to my midsection and either let it go or let it rest).

 

Anyway, once relaxed ... soften my focal intensity to gently do whatever I identified as my focus ... and let it become very passive and non-intense... until a point is reached where it descends of its own accord.  I liken "sweet spots" to regulating the pressure in your ears on an airplane... when heading up, the pressure is getting less so you hold your nose and suck in to remove the greater internal pressure... when heading down you blow out.  The sweet spot is where your ears clear utterly... go to far and you clog again and have to reverse the procedure.

 

I honestly feel like I must sound like the biggest idiot to you and the more experienced teachers and practitioners here, but I'm going to suck it up and spill anyway so that I can truly find the right path and direction.  My apologies for being the chattering monkey.

 

SO as my attention descends of its own accord, just experience it and let it do its thing.   When it lands, just passively ... experience that... while doing whatever else I need to do in the practice.

 

Am I getting this or am I missing it?

 

Thank you again.

 

Stillwater (name is Sean, btw).

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