John Chang Video

[sean]

Finally took time read this thread. What a party.

 

Interesting stuff from seandenty here. I wanted to throw in my two cents and say that, personally, I am more drawn to paths that lay more meat out up front. It's the American way! Ok, even if I need a teacher for minor or even major guidance in applying the techniques, give me a thumbnail sketch of what I am getting into. I am too hip on cults to sign up for something without a sense of what it's about. I can fully accept a layer of secretiveness. Particularly as an effort to maintain the sacredness of particular teachings, rituals, etc. or to protect the group from opression, say, if there are techniques involving fun illicit drugs, yogic sex with porn stars, clowns, midgets ...

 

Alright, I am not a fan of the "it's secret so you don't hurt yourself" thing. I assume a certain almost magical quality to naive sincerity. Even a worthless technique done in the right spirit is better than the perfect method done for the wrong reasons. Hurting oneself is an act of ignorance, of unconsciousness. And we are already doing this in every moment! Ask the Buddhists, they will tell you. But it's this thread of nearly foolish sincerity that guides us IMO. It's a very personal thing. My Taoist teacher Liu Ming tells me human beings can not even consciously kill themselves. Taoists believe suicide is a case of unresolved ancestral qi. In effect, an enraged demonic ancestor killing you with your own hands. Whoah. But to find a place of sincerity, where you consciously want to become a more evolved being, or even just want to have more fun, genuinely, to get in touch with the tiniest sliver of intuition, and follow this thread of bliss, even if there is a big pile of karmic crud on top of it, well I believe this is the whole path. It's when picking a flower for your lover is as powerful a qigong as flying to China and meeting a new super advanced teacher.

 

It's so simple. We can have a blast concocting elaborate rituals, learning to shoot qi balls, flying ... it could all even be part of our evolution. And Still there Is Silence the whole Way. Debating over a hierarchy of spiritual advancement is bizarre. There is no hierarchy. Evolution and progress are a function of time. What is Timeless? Nothing. Silence. And there is literally Nothing but Now. That's it. Now you are reading this. So this is That. Maybe you will be cooking later. That will be It. Completely and totally It. Maybe you will be in China with an extraordinary human being. That will be It. Up and down, moods change, your memories shift, round and round. What remains still? Can you see?

 

Honestly I only catch a glimpse myself. But how it feels! It's surely Truth.

 

I am aware that traditionally the Chinese sages were highly secretive. So it's possible that taking Taoism "all the way" requires a deeper embrace of this feature of the path. I'll stay a bum as long as I can though. Really many paths from all culture's including the West have been traditionally structured in a way many today would consider shockingly secretive, exclusive and elitist. For all number of reasons, good and bad. I am not the least bit offended by seandenty's posts here, (nor Li Jiong's in the past.) I think they are intriguing actually, and I would be curious to meet these fellows and their masters. I can't help feel that seandenty may be projecting a certain amount of his own love for his teachers outward as more objective features of the world than they are. When you have powerful experiences with someone it's like that though. Like, I can say with certainty that having sex with Lezlie is way way more high level than with ordinary women. She has many secret powers I have never seen demonstrated before. Only read about in books of legends. I consider it very unfortunate that none of you will ever be enlightened in this secret and powerful qigong, but it's an elite path reserved for only one man. hhhaah... LOL!

 

This is an exciting time in history. For perhaps the first time, a westerner has been accepted as family by a living Daoist lineage.

Just "for the record", this is not the first time a Westerner has been accepted by an authentic Taoist family. Off the top of my head there has been Kristofer Schipper, Michael Saso and my teacher Liu Ming and I have not been looking. Ming teaches zuowang, "sitting in forgetfullness", an emptiness meditation basically indistinguishable from zazen. Later I believe he introduces alchemical meditations, but in a similar spirit that he teaches cooking clases and Taoist astrology; useful details to enrich the core process of embracing the ordinary that is engaged through zuowang. Honestly, does it need to be fundamentally more complex than this? Is there really so much more room for "irony and missteps" intrinsic to so-called "spiritual practice" than that which is inherent in any moment in life?

 

Sean

[三江源]

blimey, sean's a bit good up his mind tank, isnt he?

 

 

 

(nice one, Lezlie.)

[Yoda]

Damn... walked into this party after it's over!!

 

Thanks to Sean for sharing and I'd love to see him post regularly. I'll google for more about David Shen. Isn't that the guy Winn says is an amazingly gifted practitioner and who has channelled a lot of his info? Somehow I seem to remember Winn and David not getting along for some reason. Winn didn't like the dude David was channelling or something.

 

After my sungazing experiment crashed and burned, I'm hesitant to get back to high energy practices that I assume Sean is referring to.

 

I definitely believe in all the special effects, though.

 

-Yoda

[mYTHmAKER]

 

 

you know, if I had to choose between being a powerful immortal, or being 'enlightened' (i.e. content,) I would choose immortality.

plato, or aristolte, maybe it was socrates.. it was one of 'em... said something along the lines of...

"It is better to be a genius discontent than a pig content."

 

I think immortal and enlighten are interchangeable in the taoist context.

Being enlightened INHO means accepting of whatever happens - being in the moment -

joyful - and not just sitting on your ass.

[spyrelx]

Edited October 2, 2006 by spyrelx

[Uncle Fester]

...

Edited September 18, 2021 by darebak

[Smile]

Interesting stuff.

 

I was trying to set up David's workshops in NYC 4-5 years back. The thing fell apart after he demanded upfront a big sum of money and the plane tikets plus 80% of all the profits from the workshops. To me at the time it was very unresonable, especially if you are coming to US for the first time and no one knows who you are. Advertisement cost, etc. And so I backed off on the whole thing and so did a gentelman from the upstate NY who was trying to do the same thing.

 

Sean, what format of David's teachings are we talking about? Through emails, workshops, etc? If workshops, where? If you want to advertise his teachings, just do so instead of covering the whole thing in "magical mystery". By any chance, are you a former Eric Yudelove's student from Turkey?

 

PS I agree with a lot what was said about HT system and with the history of what Chia learned from One Cloud. Winn keeps changing the story but that's his personal problem. The whole thing is a big expensive experiment so you need to decide if you want to be a part of it. The fact that most people get positive results from practicing the formulas doesn't mean a thing. A simple standing meditation will get you there as well.

[三江源]

[Wayfarer64]

Hi y'all,

 

I've never met a teacher or master who didn't expect some sort of compensation for their efforts to teach and share their knowledge. It is the way of our world. The commoditization of our world is a worrisome prospect, but if drinking water can be sold at astronomical prices, I guess teaching is as precious and can be valued on the material levels also.

Dojo's cost money to rent, books cost money to print, we all need to eat real food, ( as snarfing urine just won't ever catch on mainstream)...So some of our existence is still tied to the material plane and needs to be supported. Many masters have families that also need to eat and sleep in relative comfort. So I think we are stuck with at least a partialy capitalistic system for now.

I am sure there are some more socialistic systems that support Taoist communities and temples in China or Burma but they come with their own problems as has been discussed in other threads...Capitalism with all its horrors and tyranies is also part of the Tao and a seemingly natural way to go about our daily existence. This is also true of Socialism and any other ism out there... each system is part of the fabric of human interactions.

The Tao is not above the world in some glorified state. It is part of each aspect and is the spirited glory within each aspect. From a drop of urine to the super-clusters of galaxies each thing in its own Tao each part of a larger aspect of the Tao.

Humility is valued as a human trait to persever in, but hubris is not. The Tao needs no adoration or to be placed above our daily lives. It just is.

If your worried about commoditization join Common Cause and fight the good fight on the Artha levels...-

peace -Pat

[thaddeus]

[affenbrot]

My experience of M Winn is that he is very astute when he wants to be. I have no problem believing that he can track a teacher. or anyone he wants to track.

 

It is interesting to me that a line of energy can develop in a certain way - ie can go deep and powerful but lack heart.

 

what irritates me is that these things are brought up

again even though they are about issues dating back almost 15 years

now. The speed and intensity David Verdesi seems to learn has him

in a different place now, i would guess. He's adopted by a buddhist neikung practitioner and seems

to be a close disciple of Wang Liping - people would still have to show me how these guys 'lack heart'.

 

On the other hand, we almost have no info about him available, no wonder we discuss rumours.

affenbrot

[三江源]

I dont know who david is , and I'm disengaged from the rumours or whatever, because I have no idea whom it is about plus all such things have to be taken with a shedload of salt.

 

Therefore my comment was general, about the nature of energies.

 

 

What is so weird about tracking?!

[thaddeus]

What is so weird about tracking?!

not weird, just incredulous.

if he really had this ability, why he is still futzing around..

[三江源]

[...]

THAT WINN SHIT IS CRAZY COOL

 

Maybe I should try to channel a taoist... wtf, right? I wonder how I would go about it...

[Uncle Fester]

...

Edited September 18, 2021 by darebak

[...]

ya, it's fucked, huh?

And, you know... I got my start off of chia... but I never really got 'off' on any of his shit.

 

especially the five element shit. I am a pretty well-balanced kind of guy, (or at least I play one on TV, if you know what I mean...) so... uh

 

who cares.

[SheepishLord]

ya, it's fucked, huh?

And, you know... I got my start off of chia... but I never really got 'off' on any of his shit.

 

especially the five element shit. I am a pretty well-balanced kind of guy, (or at least I play one on TV, if you know what I mean...) so... uh

 

who cares.

 

 

Hey, is that your back? Whats it say?

[三江源]

 

To me it boils down to your intent. Is your intent to spread Taoist practices that are thoroughly tested through generations of practice and dedication, for the benefit of mankind?

 

Or is it your intent to make money by stealing bits of other practices, pulling the rest out of your arse and slapping the product up on your website?

 

That is the impression I get from HT. The term codify is more like "contrive and combine in a way that seems plausible enough to turn a buck."

 

I mean the website design reminds me of many "as seen on tv" type products.

 

 

The website is tacky, yes. Lack of aesthetic awareness, perhaps.

 

As for stealing , well - "all that we know is what has gone before" to loosely paraphrase TSEliot. And as for pulling stuff out of your arse, well, I think that's called creativity, isnt it.

[...]

Ya it is my back ! =) lol it would be silly otherwise, eh?

 

it is like, uh, the sixth or seventh chapter in the tao te ching... I forget... I am pretty sure it is seven, (isn't that terrible?)

 

I chose that chapter because I felt it was a subtle allusion to 'emptiness'.. a la 'the secret of the golden flower'...

 

I have a red poppy on my chest that looks like a hibiscus... suppose to symbolize tantric bliss =) (though I am not succesful at that too much anymore...)

[Smile]

actually it's not unreasonable. I've thought about setting up workshops as well and that's pretty normal. It's definately not a moneymaking venture. The people that I know that setup workshops do it for the knowledge sharing aspects, in fact, one guy I spoke to said he's 'lost' tens of thousands on organizing these workshops in the last few years.

David is not known. Search his name in Google and you will see all kind of crap. So why would someone want to be his student unless they have the inner calling to do so? Not too many of those are knoking on your door with money, that's for sure. I would probably pay for the whole thing myself but why? There was no connection established through our e-mail communications as his Russian girlfriend probably was in charge of answering his emails with a signature "QiGong management". Please...

 

If there was no energetic connection or an effort to establish one on his part, why would I go out of my way to support something like that?

[thaddeus]

David is not known. Search his name in Google and you will see all kind of crap. So why would someone want to be his student unless they have the inner calling to do so? Not too many of those are knoking on your door with money, that's for sure. I would probably pay for the whole thing myself but why? There was no connection established through our e-mail communications as his Russian girlfriend probably was in charge of answering his emails with a signature "QiGong management". Please...

 

If there was no energetic connection or an effort to establish one on his part, why would I go out of my way to support something like that?

i agree, i wouldn't host it. I'm just saying that people do charge alot and workshop hosts tend to lose money on it.

<i just edited out some stuff>

T

[portcraig]

I went with Sean to train with David during the Foundation Training in August. I had never met David until then. I first started emailing David last summer (2005) after finding his website email address. (The website is no longer functioning.) David was kind enough to reply to all my emails. I kept bugging him about Foundation training and he finally agreed this year but he had a condition. I had to find five people who would also participate. I was a part of a private forum that discussed John Chang and his Mo Pai teachings as well as other similar teachings. We were all sort of disappointed at that time as Sifu Chang was no longer teaching westerners. I finally organized a group of 6 people that wanted to go through the training. We were all tired of just discussing the teachings and wanted to actually experience it.

 

Before meeting David I researched all the topics about him on the internet. I read about all the dirt just like you are doing. So of course I was a little worried. Well when I met David and saw how normal he was and when the retreat actually started I felt a lot better as I felt responsible for everyone signing up for the retreat. David even laughed about some of the things that are written about himself on the internet.

 

We met with David in Thailand and the first two days he took us to see Sifu L. Sifu L touched different points like the Bai Hui, Dan Tien, and third eye in order to help us with our meditation and the upcoming Foundation Training. What was incredible was the electricity that came out of his fingers. It was almost like sticking your finger in an electrical outlet. To me that experience made the whole trip worth it. I still feel the point on the Bai Hui where Sifu L had touched when I think about it.

 

I must say that David is very connected to several Masters. At the time we had met he said he had met 8 Yin Yang Gong Masters and two of them were women. I guess that number is larger now that

he is initiated by Sifu J as a family disciple. During the retreat I heard David speaking with Sifu John Chang on the telephone. A girl at our retreat mentioned that David had taken a group of them to meet with Sifu Chang the previous December. I also spoke with David about Wang Liping. David had told us that he was a personal teacher of Wang Liping. I asked David how he communicated with him and David said by telephone and he showed me his telephone where he had Wang Liping's phone number listed.

 

After the Foundation Training David invited us all to go with him to China to see his wife and himself initiated as family disciples of Sifu J who is a Yin Yang Gong Master. He is part of a lineage that we call Lei Shen Dao or Thunder and Lightning path. Sean was the only one that had the money or time to go. So we all waited for his trip report.

 

I would recommend studying with David if you actually want to start training in this type of meditation (Thunder and Lightening Path) and want to have the opportunity to meet with genuine Masters as opposed to just talking about it.

Edited October 5, 2006 by portcraig

[Trunk]

I went with Sean to train with David during the Foundation Training in August. ...

Thanks for the review of your experience with David. Interesting, honest, well put.

 

This whole thread is really appreciated.

[Wayfarer64]

"I understand what you are saying wayfarer.

And in fact I have supported the anti-capitalist cause in the past. Even spent a little time in the clink for it. Nowadays I prefer to think that it will destroy itself soon enough."

 

Hey there Darebak-

 

It ain't soon enough for me my friend! The system is too full of abuses these days.

I've been working hard with Common Cause and the Green Party -(which I quit due to their anti-Israeli position)...And I created a not for profit organization The Tenants Rights and Information Network (T.R.A.I.N.) that is fighting the largest land-lord in the USA right now - AIMCO - to regain and protect tenants rights-mostly in NJ....

I don't blame the system I blame those who abuse the system and live for avarice and greed with all the horrors you mention. I've ranted - maybe too much here- about the Military Industrial Complex and how it steals our wealth as a nation. BUT-

Just think what could be accomplished building wind-mills and solar collectors and geo-thermal plants & great public transportation systems etc-instead of the weapons and war machines!

It's not that capitalism doesn't work and socialism does- there are plenty of abuses there too- it is who/what we allow to lead and govern our lives and states.

Be it a teacher who has a scam to run or a Govt. with a scam to run, we each need to be able to hear truth from lies and geta grip on what motivates those we follow BEFORE we follow them or elect them ot allow ourselves to work for them...

Often enough we make mistakes and sometimes these we learn from and thus we grow...

None of this is easy to sort out.

But at least we got the Bums for a "sounding board" - not much bull shit floats through the sieve of all these seekers' minds unimpeded...And even if we add some of our own - (fresh as I can type it!)- in the balance what we get has the ring of truth to it often enough to be potable!

As far as this thread goes-

It would seem that those who HAVE trained with David have been better-off for the experience. I would trust that Imperical knowledge. That there are charlatins out there -we know- having the word of people who train with any number of teachers and come back to share the experiences here is invaluable !

Edited October 4, 2006 by Wayfarer64