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Edit: just for clarification, this is an extract from Inside Zhan Zhuang by Mark Cohen. Apologies to the author, but he's probably able to better express the point than me. On a personal level, I'm also opposed to black and white, absolutist positions on this subject. Maybe zhan zhuang is inappropriate for some beginners, and less so for others. Maybe wuji is better for some beginners, maybe less so for others. The importance is listening to your own body and responding appropriately. And always exercise critical thinking when it comes to Internet authorities.

Saw this, and it felt a bit like gatekeeping. It's the most powerful form of qigong out there, and is not locked behind an academy paywall and a guru-like teacher. I switched now to just standing and nothing else on energetics. 40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. My body becomes more supple, looser as the time progresses, not harder or stiffer. An important part of that is body scanning and allowing knots of tension to release. There are experiences when tension and hardness suddenly dissolve, after which the body feels light and soft. I would advise trying it for yourself. If you feel stiffer and more stuck, as Damo intimates, then switch to wuji or moving forms. But don't take his word as gospel, without trying for yourself.

I and some others can see the energies of personal karma and group karma. We often work in pairs - one acting and the other observing. Group karma follows lines of least resistance (like electricity) so can sometimes be diverted elsewhere in the group when the Lipika Lords are willing to cooperate. When that happens the karmic energy around the target human usually shows clear changes and relationships change

Just curious, have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you care so much how other people practice?

As far as I understand, to get into Master Wang's retreat now, the process is as follows: You need to attend one of the basic seminars with one of his students, Nathan is one of them, and learn the basic skills there, mastering sitting for three hours. After that, they'll tell you where Master Wang's next retreat is. Master Wang no longer holds retreats for beginners, so there's no real public information. You need to keep in touch with someone who knows Master Wang personally, and then you can find out the next date. And most likely, there won't be any more public beginner retreats. Another option is to go to Dalian, where Master Wang lives, stay there for a while, and then you can attend a retreat; he regularly holds retreats there for advanced students.

Beginners should not do Zhan Zhuang also a sole practice in the beginning. It should be done along side a bunch of things like loosening exercises, opening body methods, alignment practices. I think that is what he is trying to get at. Because to do Zhan Zhuang correctly, you do need all of peripheral training to support the standing conditions. Those conditions cannot easily be developed within the standing method itself "initially". But you can do it for short periods in the beginning to see if there are improvements every day.

Thoughts? Most teachers I've dealt with start out with Wuji.

Here it is Wuji https://wujiquest.substack.com/p/wuji-the-posture-basics

Those adorations were part of recommended practice and originally I was ... nah, not into that . I have strong Cancerian and Neptunian influence in my natal chart and 'life stream ' ; very lunar goddess oriented (and had been working in a couple of coverns , doing my '2nd degree Wicca ' (before all this ) and sometimes doing the Wiccan priest role ( which is mainly supporting the Priestess ) . In retrospect the solar adorations were recommended as I needed that balance - I realised that later . I have limited time at the moment . To list that would take pages as some times I did all of them every single day four times a day for months on end ( I think any practice done like that is bound to create effects ! ) . I will list one benefit . it took me ages to figure out . Why is the setting sun associated with joy ? I didnt know but I made myself feel and contemplate joy during that 'adoration' ( it consists of a prescribed and outlined ritual but within that is a space for meditation , what you meditate 'on' is prescribed by your teacher { 'inner or outer ' } ) . Sometimes I would have a great day and feel joy and gratitude for that . Then that spread to every day . Then even hard or bad days ( at least now that is over ) , I like the night as well and feel comfortable in the dark . It was a great 'closing' to the day . And of course a reflection of our life's journey and my death ... joy at death . Why not ? Then it spread to joy for being alive and experiencing every day , then the joy of 'existence ' . Then gratitude and appreciation for life . After a while I am walking around in this appreciative amazed state . And then other parts of the ritual and effects 'hurl me back ' to ancient Egypt where perhaps they experienced something like this? I have it in a story I wrote... somewhere ; 'The Egyptian' ... it starts something like ' I arose one morning early and before I went to plow the fields , I walked down to the river to greet Ra in his rising ....( and stuff about , watching a bird high in the sky , a fish jumps in the water etc etc a) ... and I rejoiced knowing ( here is the crux ) ... that I am ALIVE inside the body of God . Well, Thelema , in this aspect is 'dodgy neo-Egyptian ' It uses Egyptian metaphors to teach concepts in Thelema but not so much concepts in ancient Egypt , whatever they were . With all the indigenous stuff I been doing lately its easy to see Nuit - Queen of space and the stars ... Wallenganda Mother snake in the sky - the Milky Way . Hadit - A 'condensed point in space , the 'winged disc' ... the God force ( not in its 'be ing' but in its going ... going forward .. Ungud , rainbow serpent earth snake , creation spirit Ra hoor Khuit - that aspect of Law - Bungil , he who 'regulates' law ( old red eye , ie Mars ) and so on Well, wings help us fly

those suckers were killing off a whole lot fish in the great lakes until someone painstakingly and finally found a substance that greatly reduced their numbers thus making area fishermen's jobs viable again!

That's why it's good to have friends in High Places. And I'd like to share a small snippet of a story that was passed along to me,,,, There was a guy in a seriously tough place and he called out (prayer) for help. A couple of weeks went by, his suffering deepened. Then, like a thunderbolt, he was delivered out and to safety. This guy, you'd think, woulda been, praising the being that arrived and turned the tide, but, instead, questioned why he (the guy) had to repeat the prayers so many times, weren't you listening? He asked in criticizing tone. We heard you the first time. It took us that long to battle through the evil. You know, the evil that thinks might is right

Yes, that and standing with the legs straight up. That is the true wuji posture. PS Wuji is nothing but standing still like a normal human being does. It was defined by the Qigong practitioners by calling it Wuji. Why make such a big deal out of it?

Verse 78 Of the Dao De Jing

Wuji - the ball holding standing is not the simplest one. The "Quiet and Pure" Standing is before that. It is with 2 hands drop to the sides of the body, somewhat like having an intention to pressing the ground but not actually doing it. The Ball Holding stance is getting some unfavourable attention these days. Because it looks like holding a book, a newspaper or nowadays a phone in front of you. This posture can create similar problems as using phones too much. I do think newbies should practise ZZ for a short duration e.g. 5-10 minutes, usually after the Taichi or Qigong exercises completed. It is for knowing how to align yourself; and resting into stilling the mind. In the longer term, the system you choose will dictate how long you need to stand. If a person cannot stand too long, then pick another system.

The book Taranyali Tridha Dhyanam by Sundarnath describes the Kanphata Nath view on kundalini referencing three types urdvasakti, adasakti, and madasakti from the Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati and the Amanaska Yoga classical yoga texts associated with Gorakhnath’s teachings. Covers one of their main tools, Sakti Calani, along with their view on what sambavi mudra, vajroli mudra and khecari mudra really involve and how to use them to prepare for/approach it. In their view it takes many years to achieve and achieving it is a very high level outcome that will change one dramatically , not something that one attains without a very serious commitment or without taking some serious risks. There are parallels in my opinion between Neidan (particularly the final process step - return to source) and the Amanaska yoga (the yoga beyond the mind as described in the text). Kundalini in their view is not just an experience of energy in the body that someone can easily access which seems to be a common, popularized conception of it, but rather a very profound and deep connection with spirit that involves going beyond “ doing” , beyond one’s self and acquired mind (to the unmani state).

I appreciate the concern. Just for clarification, I've been recommended the specific ZZ posture and the book by my local instructors. I would say that every taiji teacher I've ever had has started with static standing postures, usually Wuji. A few have stated that if they could, they would have everyone practice nothing but Wuji for some months, but they don't think anyone in the U.S. would want to learn in such a way. In retrospect, I don't see how one develops any sort of internal structure WITHOUT a lot of Wuji. I wish I had followed the advice earlier on practicing this more some time ago.

She saw herself in that incarnation - on this timeline.

The question I have is why you would go to work with middle center in the beginning of YOUR cultivation process

There should be no time limits. If you stand for awhile like few minutes and cannot withstand the pain, then, stop. Wait awhile, then, try again. Just try to bear the pain for awhile until you can bear it without stopping. BTW Wuji is standing without having the legs bent. It is only a starting position. You should go to ZZ right away and bend your knees at a comfortable position. Move your body up and down to adjust the tension on your legs muscles.

I've been off again, on again with Taiji and Qigong. I've taken up Taiji again over the past year after a bit of a hiatus. I'm surprised at how foundational wuji seems to be, and also at how many people tend to put it off or ignore it. I can say that, after softening up internally and opening some stuff up, standing has gotten far easier. One issue I had generally was too much tension (and also mental clinging), and both meditation and qigong teachers in my view fail to teach how to deal with it. There is sometimes a subtle pressure to "grin and bear it" which I think locks tension into the body/subtle body. I actually had to undo a lot of this tension that I picked up from initial Vipassana practice. So in this regard, it makes sense to focus on Wuji before ZZ since it is a bit simpler. I've just ordered the book a few days ago on the recommendation of my local Taiji friends, so I haven't seen it yet but I've watched some of his videos and was reviewing them just today. Doesn't he start with Wuji? He does in the videos.

^ 'GOLD' ! ( That is two 'Gold' gifts in two days ! The one yesterday cam for 'Uncle Allen ' a Gunbayngirr elder when I was in their 'sacred circle ' for a ceremony ... and WOW ! I should make a post about this later . But yes please 'Uncle Apech' please , a new thread on this stuff ? '' )

No 'Stele of Revealing ' work for you ? ( I used to recite it as part of my four daily adorations of the Sun ; dawn noon sunset midnight . In 'ancient Egyptian' ... yeah yeah, I know ! the pronunciation thing , sometimes one has to 'wing it' { 'creative license' } . ) .

Yup. That is why I would disagree with Damo. The context is if you do ZZ ONLY in the beginning expecting to get results, you will not get results. But if you do it along side other important developments, it serves a good reference point to gauge improvement, until ZZ transforms to take off on its own as a stand alone cultivation.

Haha, the good old days for me was 60 years ago. I'll reserve my comments on your thoughts on ZZ. Peace!

In the good old days. A Chinese father used to discipline his son by making him do Zhan Zhuang. It is because the father knew it was good for the health of the son. BTW Most Kung Fu masters always have their students start with ZZ before teaching any forms of martial art. It is because that is the fundamental training to condition the body to take any future punishment.

I think of it this way: Russia did gain 40 years or so controlling Eastern Europe. They paid a brutal sobering price in Blood for that. At the beginning of the war it is likely that the US had a reasonably functioning Democratic Republic. Of course Elites had tried eroding that long before the war. John Quincy Adams sounded the alarm way back in his time. When the war ended, Truman caved to Elite Evil Forces that misrepresented themselves. And we got the CIA which soon co-opted the Republic for their own greedy evil interests. By 1963 they had snuffed the last remaining light, JFK. Before that decade was over MLk, RFK, others, lights extinguished. So, who really won WW2?

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

Lately I’ve been reflecting on how not all forms of “turning inward” feel the same. Sometimes it’s grounding and transformative – like in Qigong, when Shen, Qi, and Jing begin to gather in the body. Sometimes it’s soothing but physical – like with using Gua Sha, where the body opens but the mind is not deeply involved. Sometimes it’s inward but scattered – like in daydreams or fantasies, where the energy rises but doesn’t settle, leaving me less centered. This makes me wonder: Are there different “inner spaces” or “inner qualities” we enter, depending on the practice or state of mind? From a Daoist and Qigong perspective, it seems that we can distinguish stages of going inward: Through the body (stability, Jing foundation) Through energy flow (Qi movement and collection) Through spirit (Shen calming and returning) Through unity (Jing, Qi, Shen returning to one) I’m curious: Have you also noticed this difference between a collected inner state versus a scattered inner state? Which practices help you personally to anchor Shen in the body, so that “turning inward” feels truly nourishing rather than dispersing? I’d love to hear how others who walk the Daoist or Qigong path have encountered this theme.

ditto on the digestive problems; when we are younger our bodies are normally better able to compensate or recover from certain problems but as I get older the balance related to staying on keel is not so forgiving of unforced errors that I made or could get away with during younger years! btw, its common for college and some high school kids to really hammer their bodies with too much alcohol during parties, I did some of that but thankfully I survived the few times I over did it and then basically quit. (some time in my early 20's) I used to joke with the guys that they had to be in very good shape to knock the hell out of themselves with hard liquor and then be able to get back on their feet.

As you know the ancient Egyptian civilization was at its height at its earliest stage. From this we may deduce that the civilization was formed elsewhere. The same is true of Sumer. Once I showed a friend a scene from 56 000 years ago with a procession from the Great Pyramid of Giza. She was in the procession. On her left was a child who is also her child at the present time. On her right was the one called Vishnu. When she saw him she burst out: Oh he is my favorite! So I wonder if your interest is in what Earth humans living in Egypt have done, or whether it is what the founders of Egypt etc still do