Transgender Q&A

[silent thunder]

 

woman: as within so without

Edited May 4 by silent thunder

[silent thunder]

and for blue eyes...

 

the boy and his wolf.

[blue eyed snake]

17 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

When I  read about your feelings and experience I really feel bad and wish you could go ahead and transition. Sorry if I'm out of place, I just get emotional when I read about what you say. 🥹🩷

 

No need to be sorry

 

I have thought so much about these things, when I was young the possibility to take hormones and/or surgery simply was nonexistent. I know that those days I would have jumped at the change to take testosterone and have double mastectomy.

To become more male, to better reflect my inner being into the physical body

 

But now I am glad the temptation was not there for me, as it has taught me how to live with the body I was born in. It brings its own set of lessons which weren't funny to live through but now I see their worth. I hd to connect with both the maculine and later in life the feminine part of me to find balance, to find I am just human and gender has become negligible ( for me).

 

There has been a time where I thought that the modern term nonbinary is a good fit for me but atm it feels as if its all just past me, that these were all phases to arrive at:  BES is a genderless human.

 

But in the current society  it's less hard to live as a very masculine woman then as a very feminine man and I keep thinking that it is society at large that has to change, so that feminine men and masculine women can easier find their place in society, without getting pushed in the duality male/female. That we all have to learn that male/female is not a dichotomy but a continuum.

 

Just as not everybody can see colors, accommodate these people, or left-handedness, many things really.

 

although were all human there are big differences between how our bodies and minds function.

 

should we do away with very smart people because they do not conform to the median? how about people with very low IQ

and if you say yes to one of those, why is that, and why not the other and who are you to judge?

 

also, i deem the early interventions dangerous. When someone has reached adult age it's their choice as in modern society it is totally normalized to shape the body as you want it. I come from a time were surgery on a classmate of mine with very floppy ears was deemed over the top by many parents. My thinking mind is formed and shaped in those days, I shy away from surgery when the body is healthy.

 

[liminal_luke]

Back in the day, I was one of those vaguely new-age dudes with an oversized interest in what I euphemistically thought of as the nexus between sexuality and spirituality.  I let a workshop leader talk me out of attending "Cosmic Orgasm Awareness Week" because there would be women there and I was inexperienced in their wily ways.  Big mistake.  Yeah, I might have been uncomfortable but so what.  In the end, we´re all human.

[blue eyed snake]

.

 

Edited May 5 by blue eyed snake
double post

[Mark Foote]

On 5/3/2024 at 5:10 PM, liminal_luke said:

 

This seemed like the right moment to share my favorite movie clip.  I often feel like Harold arriving late to the party.  Life´s tough.  I hope we´ll be easy with each other.
 

 

 

Thanks for posting that, liminal_luke.

There's a kind of a shock factor going on in the clip, from the birthday song and kiss, to the confrontation over arriving late.

Harold confronts the situation by staying real, and true to their own feelings.  

I think the shock factor is exactly why many people are uncomfortable being around folks whose gender identity is not the majority societal norm.  We're not necessarily always present in each moment, we're not necessarily always true to our feelings and able to be spontaneously aware.  We don't necessarily like being confronted with our ignorance, with our sensual attachments, with our attachment to being a "self" that is defined and accepted by our peers.

 

And then there's the blurring of the lines that occurs when respected spiritual leaders show their sensual attachments, in spite of their selfless presence.

 

What a world.

 

I expected the shock factor, and I hesitated at first to watch the clip.  Good choice, for this discussion.

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

55 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Good choice, for this discussion.

 

 

So glad you appreciated the clip!  The whole movie (The Boys in the Band) is wonderful though perhaps a little niche, more likely to win the cold jaded hearts of old gays like myself than those with more mainstream tastes.  

Edited May 5 by liminal_luke

[steve]

A few of the mod team have reviewed the reports received on this thread but moderation is a bit sparse here at the moment so we appreciate your patience. The feeling is that if there is interest in discussing this topic publicly we need to expect, and value, some opposing input. It is an area where there is quite a bit of differing opinion and emotional reactivity and we respect the tenor and restraint seen in the thread so far.

@Maddie we have a few options:

Allow the thread to continue as it is, move it to your PPF where you can moderate as you see fit, or move to Current Events where we try to maintain the controversial and button-pushing threads with more privacy.

Let me know if you want to move the thread.

Thanks,

Steve for the mod team.

 

[Trunk]

5 hours ago, steve said:

Let me know if you want to move the thread.

 

also, we've made sure that the entire "gender gardens" area is not viewable to the www at large; TDBs Members only.  I've edited the description to make that clear.

[Nungali]

On 04/05/2024 at 2:33 AM, liminal_luke said:

Jadespear has a pointed writing style and I can understand how people would find it offensive.  Still, I think there has to be a place in a thread like this for those who don´t believe that transwomen are women.  I think it´s a matter of definition.  If we define "woman" by referencing biological sex then Jadespear has a point.  Fortunately, there are medical interventions that allow transgendered people to change their bodies to be more in line with their gender identities, but these interventions are imperfect and incomplete.  

 

This is such a difficult topic.  It seems like the choices are to agree with the current thinking about gender -- transwomen are women -- or be labeled a bigot.  There´s got to be a middle way.  Surely someone can use the traditional biologically-based definitions of women and men and still be supportive of trans people?  

 

I would never tell Maddie she´s not a woman because it goes against one of my much cherished personal policies: don´t be an asshole.  I suspect that transgendered people (and gay people) have a special role to play in the spiritual evolution of our species.  I suspect that transwomen have, for lack of a better word, womanly souls.  Ivy Compten-Burnett wrote: The universe exists and nothing is going to endure it. We´re all trying in this life and if transitioning makes someone happier then more power to them.  Who am I to question someone else´s choices?  I hope that all women´s spaces are open to Maddie and that she feels warmly welcomed wherever she goes.

 

But if asked to sign a petition affirming that "transwomen are women" I would demur.  In my opinion, my refusal should not be against Tao Bums law but it might be.  I await my consequences.  

 

I see it differently  .... and I am often at odds with jadespear .... if I read past the reactive stuff , he isnt saying  just

 

" don´t believe that transwomen are women"

 

he clearly said   ( a qualification, as i read it )

 

"   Spiritually speaking - no one is either.   "  and I take that to mean some believe, on a 'spiritual level'  we are neither men or women , that is only on the material level.

 

The 'divine androgyne' concept .   ' a blend of male and female or by being neither male nor female '

 

But its moot as well , as he is talking to (and is himself , as far as we know ) a material person .  

 

The hidden offence  here ( I have seen more than once )  is the expectation or judgement  that  Maddie   should be  , coming from a spiritual or enlightened viewpoint  (according to the judgements of the observer and complainer  ) ... she has already addressed that and explained why she posts here .

 

"

 

"

[liminal_luke]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

The hidden offence  here ( I have seen more than once )  is the expectation or judgement  that  Maddie   should be  , coming from a spiritual or enlightened viewpoint  (according to the judgements of the observer and complainer  ) ... she has already addressed that and explained why she posts here .

 

 

Agreed.  Sadly, those who say "if you were enlightened you´d see it *this* way" are so seldom enlightened themselves. Ya gotta love this place though.  Elsewhere, if people want to criticize transgendered people they say they´re going against God or unnatural or some other such nonsense; here, they say they are unenlightened.

Edited May 7 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

On 04/05/2024 at 12:00 PM, Maddie said:

 

 

Why do people get so bent out of shape over other people changing their gender??

 

Because , I can assure you  MY gender is stable and firm  !    NOTHING 'threatens it at all  .

 

I am staunchly male and heterosexual !

 

I do have a complaint though ... that gay guy next door , parades around naked inside his house with his curtains wide open !  Who does he think he is ! ?    -  Now, you might think I cant see into his windows from mine , however , if  I go out into the back yard and stand on a milk crate and part the hedge  ......

 

.....  what a  disgusting  gay exhibitionist  ! 

 

 

[Salvijus]

On 2024-05-04 at 1:22 AM, Maddie said:

 

I think people can be who ever they want to be lol. 

 

"Everything but illusion" would make more sense imo. 

Edited May 7 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Agreed.  Sadly, those who say "if you were enlightened you´d see it *this* way" are so seldom enlightened themselves. Ya gotta love this place though.  Elsewhere, if people want to criticize transgendered people they say they´re going against God or unnatural or some other such nonsense; here, they say they are unenlightened.

 

People seem to get very "spiritual" all of a sudden when it comes to being trans lol. 

[Elysium]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

Because , I can assure you  MY gender is stable and firm  !    NOTHING 'threatens it at all  .

 

I am staunchly male and heterosexual !

 

I do have a complaint though ... that gay guy next door , parades around naked inside his house with his curtains wide open !  Who does he think he is ! ?    -  Now, you might think I cant see into his windows from mine , however , if  I go out into the back yard and stand on a milk crate and part the hedge  ......

That indeed is so disgusting, can you send a picture of him so I can be more disgusted? ☺️

[liminal_luke]

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

People seem to get very "spiritual" all of a sudden when it comes to being trans lol. 

 

If only more parents in rural northern California understood this argument in 1977.  When my dad asked why I liked to dance in grocery stores and had no interest in football, I might have explained that as an enlightened spiritual being I´d transcended conventional gender categories.  

[Salvijus]

32 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

People seem to get very "spiritual" all of a sudden when it comes to being trans lol. 

 

"Real" would be the word i use. Being real is good in all situations imo. 

Edited May 7 by Salvijus

[liminal_luke]

28 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

"Real" would be better word imo. 

 

Here´s the thing, Salvijus. Is a transgender  person who transitions more real or less?  Who decides '-- is it you? And what should the consequences be for someone found to be "unreal"?  We could look the other way when such people are physically assualted, always a popular option, so much more defensible than death squads.  Or maybe it would be enough to make the unreal feel lonely and banished from society with the careful application of moral censure?  I´m sure you have some good ideas. 

 

(I was probably a bit hard on you above, Salvijus.  I´m sure you don´t want to hurt transgendered people.  It´s true though that in many places such people are in physical danger.  Seems to me it´s better just to let people do what they want -- whether or not we think they are "real" -- rather than policing for others ideas about how to be.)

Edited May 7 by liminal_luke

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

I see it differently  .... and I am often at odds with jadespear .... if I read past the reactive stuff , he isnt saying  just

 

" don´t believe that transwomen are women"

 

he clearly said   ( a qualification, as i read it )

 

"   Spiritually speaking - no one is either.   "  and I take that to mean some believe, on a 'spiritual level'  we are neither men or women , that is only on the material level.

 

The 'divine androgyne' concept .   ' a blend of male and female or by being neither male nor female '

 

The Dao, the "I AM" and Buddhas are genderless. Most of my teachers (and me) would say (or have said) that they also have had substantial, or complete reductions in identification with their bodies or other identity constructs. I can see now that gender, for me anyway, was always shades of grey. 

 

Why wouldn't we, living in Samsara, drop the walls of various types of identification to alleviate our suffering? 

 

The Samantamukha Sutra has an interesting exposition on the topic of emptiness, including specifically of sex and gender, for those interested: 

 

 

Edited May 7 by stirling

[Salvijus]

34 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Here´s the thing, Salvijus. Is a transgender  person who transitions more real or less?

I believe no matter what mask(identity) one wears it's still not the real thing and it doesn't make one any more real. But it's debatable matter. 

34 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

And what should the consequences be for someone found to be "unreal"? 

Each thing we find in ourselves that is untrue is an ausipicious opportunity to become more true. It's a moment of celebration to all who love truth and light. Nothing but enouregment and support should be given to such people imo. 

Edited May 7 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

I haven't seen this level of "enlightenment shaming" for other topics lol. 

 

I guess on a forum like this one is more likely to try to disguise their transphobia with "spiritual terminology"?  🤔

Edited May 7 by Maddie

[Salvijus]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I haven't seen this level of "enlightenment shaming" for other topics lol. 

 

This thread is special indeed. But with auspiciousness not with shaming. 

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

I guess on a forum like this one is more likely to try to disguise their transphobia with "spiritual terminology"?  🤔

 

It's not ridicule, belittling, judgement, condemnation in disguise. It's a call for deeper awareness in disguise. And I personally thought the terminology being used is very appropriate to the topic and simple to understand aswell. 

Edited May 7 by Salvijus

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

The Dao, the "I AM" and Buddhas are genderless. Most of my teachers (and me) would say (or have said) that they also have had substantial, or complete reductions in identification with their bodies or other identity constructs. I can see now that gender, for me anyway, was always shades of grey. 

 

Why wouldn't we, living in Samsara, drop the walls of various types of identification to alleviate our suffering? 

 

 

never thought of it in those terms, i mean I am just stumbling through life.  

 

 

but most people are just living, unaware and uninterested in spiritual ways of looking at life. My guess is most trans people do surgery to reduce their suffering and to be more compatible to both their own sense of self and society.

 

as for me, it slowly grew

as a youngster a NDE, so the identifications with body was never strong and the identification with sex specific characteristics just never was. I am not woman and societal rules made me believe that I then had to be a man.

But I am not a man either

so I am something inbetween,

the younger generation came up with the term non-binary, for a while that fitted me 

 

but now, I am just BES

as a weird cloud hanging around a physical body

 

a luminous blob 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

Releasing identity bound aspects of self is often a focus and goal in spiritual pursuit. 

 

But when it becomes a tool of punishment for demonizing anyone still diplaying identity, it's worthy of push back and consequences.  And there's been the scent of that demonizing implied in some posts here.

 

Clever hiding behind 'all perspectives are equal' is bullshit in some cases...  understandable in others.  Ice cream?  Sure.  Pedophelia?  Not so much grey area.

 

Transgrnder?  Guess we're exploring that here and now in thus topic.

 

As always context and inferred intention are pivotal.

 

Always free to share your opinion.  Never free from potential consequences however...