Unpopular Opinions

[old3bob]

Daniel, It sounds like you have put in a lot study of an Abrahamic faith!  (many tons more than myself)  So I was wondering what your take is on the evolution of descriptions of the "God" in the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian religions (Old and New Testament) being that descriptions in said religious scriptures vary from A-Z for a God that is also described as the, "One God".

[Daniel]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Might be better to let it go to collections, and hope that if anyone applies for something in your name, that will earn them a rejection letter.

 

It all depends on what is happening in the spiritual realm ( assuming such a thing exists ).  Time-space would not exist there in the same way as an earthbound reality.  There would be no hiding from the horde of collections agents, and potentially no end to their pummeling.  Not really forever, but, it might feel that way.

 

Alternatively merits that are accrued on the "karma-credit-plan" would have a seemingly infinite reward.  Not truly infinite, but it might feel that way.

 

The result would be encouraging the benevolent ascetic monk.  One wouldn't want to "spend" all their hard earned merits on earth bound rewards.  Also the amoral non-interventionist would earn nothing and perhaps go into debt if they are complicit and turning a blind eye to those who are in need or being oppressed.

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

Daniel, It sounds like you have put in a lot study of an Abrahamic faith!  (many tons more than myself)  So I was wondering what your take is on the evolution of descriptions of the "God" in the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian religions (Old and New Testament) being that descriptions in said religious scriptures vary from A-Z for a God that is also described as the, "One God".

 

The short story is:

 

It's all the same deity being considered from different perspectives.  In summary, the theology of Moses is both immanent and transcendent.  The theology of Christianity is immanence.  The theology of Islam is transcendent.  After Christianity gained traction the theology of Christianity is rejected by mainstream Judaism rendering a theology of strict transcendence but also discouraging spiritual pursuit and faith based practice.

 

Here's the long story:

 

The early Christians, who were Jews, were looking for the "divine presence", the shechina (known in some circles as the Word), to return to the temple.  Before the Babylonian exile, according to the story, the divine presence, the shechina, visibly descended on the temple as a column of fire to consume the offerings which were brought there.  It was visible undeniable evidence of God dwelling with the Jewish people.  Then, the temple was destroyed by Nebachunezer as a result of repeated major transgressions.  While in exile, the leadership codified the law, setup academies to teach the law and the mythology to the people in hopes of preventing future exile, perhaps to fulfill the prophecy of Deuteronomy 28.  Before the exile, common people didn't really know much, and they were considered by the elite not to be trusted to follow the law.  ( They're called Am Ha'aretz, a pejorative, people of the earth ).  

 

So, Cyrus returns the Jewish people to their homeland, the people were much more observant, and they felt they were doing everything right.  But.... The visible obvious divine presence didn't return.  The talmud identifies three major crimes that everyone was committing in private which prevented this.  By the time Jesus arrived people were confused.  They expected and desired salvation.  Parents started naming their children Yeshua, which means "salvation" in hopes of bringing a savior from "the gallery of souls" for lack of better words.  Perhaps a reincarnation of King David, or even Moses, maybe Joshua, etc... Yeshua was a common name at that time.

 

The idea that God would incarnate in human form was foreign and antithetical to Jewish theology, but, there's links to it in Exodus 33, ideally read in the Hebrew.  But also Judges 13.  Manoah knows it's not god, but also claims to have seen God in human form and fears for his life.  Also the legends of the shechina/metatron, and "son of man", both set the scene for a human emissary for God which was essentially, in essence, no different than God, God incarnate.

 

After the destruction of the 2nd temple, Christianity was developed, and the disciples of Jesus who originally were convinced that "the world to come" aka "the kingdom of God" was at hand started to become discouraged and needed to explain to themselves and the early Christians why the world was still a mess, basically.  The Jews became scapegoats for killing their Lord, even though Jesus taught his sacrifice was required and was part of the plan.  He volunteered.  Scripture was written/ adjusted accordingly.  Anti Jewish elements are in the later scripture, not the earlier.

 

The result was a psychological splitting exaggerating a black/white good-vs-evil paradigm.  Jews, non believers, skeptics became the enemy.

 

Jews seeing the rise of antisemitism and the rise of missionary pursuit of uneducated unaffiliated Jews responded by rejecting God's immanence which was originally included in the theology of Moses.  But they also rejected anything "spiritual" or "faith based" because it felt that sounded too Christian.  This results in the modern mainstream Jewish theology of transcendence not immanence and discouraging spiritual pursuit.  

 

Around 1800ish there was a rival of spirituality and a return to the theology of Moses, but, it's not without the rejectors.  The three major denominations of Judaism still reject God's immanence, but there's a major fast growing trend to reintroduce spiritual elements to conservative and reform congregations.  But this is happening in general against the desire of the leadership who would prefer to be known as academics and scholars not spiritual leaders.

 

So, here's the progression mapped out.

 

1. Theology of Moses: spiritual, transcendent and immanent.
2. Christianity: spiritual and immanent 
3. Islam:  strictly transcendent, generally not spiritual
4. Modern Judaism:  rejecting Christianity, strictly transcendent discourages spirituality for all but the elite
5. Revival by some of the theology of Moses with many rejectors.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

What I'm sayng is only important from a historical perspective, and, maybe-maybe useful for reverse engineering how the ancient hebrew beliefs, practices, rituals, were discovered and developed. 

 

 

To be clear, I'm talking about a specific meme, an idea, put forward by a specific group of people in a specific time and place.  Modern Israeli.  The meme is talking about just judaism.  "Dahtee" meaning "My knowledge [ guides me ]".  Or I know I'm right **about Judaism**.  This idea is discouraging a specific mode of mystical, let's say, pursuit or inquiry.

 

My objection is two-fold.  First, the ancient hebrew religion was not one sided like this.  So, going back in time and overlaying that onto it is misrepresenting / rewriting history.  Second,  and this happens repeatedly across the board by academics and scholars of all sorts, the the anicent hebrew religion, for right-and-wrong was in opposition to all the other cultures and religions that surrounded it.  This means that when comparing what the others were doing, the ancient hebrews would be doing it differently, likely completely opposite.  The word "hebrew" means, from the other side of the ever, the river.  They were the others.  So, looking at what the many were doing successfully doesn't reflect what the ancient hebrews were doing.  It probably reflects the opposite.  Of all the things that irritate people about the Jewish people and practices, it is this "beng different for the sake of being different" that is, imo, the most pronounced for good reason.  It even drives its own citizens crazy.  Hence the desire to assimilate, and the conflict over assimilation.

 

But, none of this undermines the value of what the many other gifted people have done with the concepts brought by the ancient hebrew religion.  Nor is it devaluing the gnostic approach that the many other ancient cultures used to discover / produce their own monumental acheivements in the science of their time.  Alchemy, ritual, and craft are, like you said in your previous post, everywhere.  Defintely.  And the revising of the paradigm for the western culture, yes, happened around the 1800s.  But there is a substantial rationalist revolution happening much earlier in Judaism.  It did cause a huge schism.  And unless youve read those texts, I'm not sure why you would, their impression would not be recognizable on the Dati ( religious zionist ). 

 

 

 

  ...   but, you are doing it yourself in the above post .

[Nungali]

IE . I note you use the terms   related to the word 'law'  and  not 'religion'  .

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

The short story is:

 

It's all the same deity being considered from different perspectives.  In summary, the theology of Moses is both immanent and transcendent.  The theology of Christianity is immanence.  The theology of Islam is transcendent.  After Christianity gained traction the theology of Christianity is rejected by mainstream Judaism rendering a theology of strict transcendence but also discouraging spiritual pursuit and faith based practice.

 

Here's the long story:

 

The early Christians, who were Jews, were looking for the "divine presence", the shechina (known in some circles as the Word), to return to the temple.  Before the Babylonian exile, according to the story, the divine presence, the shechina, visibly descended on the temple as a column of fire to consume the offerings which were brought there.  It was visible undeniable evidence of God dwelling with the Jewish people.  Then, the temple was destroyed by Nebachunezer as a result of repeated major transgressions.  While in exile, the leadership codified the law, setup academies to teach the law and the mythology to the people in hopes of preventing future exile, perhaps to fulfill the prophecy of Deuteronomy 28.  Before the exile, common people didn't really know much, and they were considered by the elite not to be trusted to follow the law.  ( They're called Am Ha'aretz, a pejorative, people of the earth ).  

 

 

 

Or put it this way ;  what was the difference ( for the Hebrew ) between  religious law  and other laws ? What where the non-religious laws ?

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Nungali

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

  ...   but, you are doing it yourself in the above post .

 

Yes, and it's ok when it's true.  If not then anyone could say anything and rewrite history unchallenged.  The idea is, if someone ( your source, Navah? ) opens the door and claims knowledge another person is justified to respond in kind.

 

Anyway, hopefully you'll recall that I said this at the beginning.

 

On 8/2/2023 at 12:03 AM, Daniel said:

Naturally, I'm not a huge fan of that movement.  But, there's a lot of different people in the world, and it's good that these rational approaches exist along side with the more imaginative approaches.

 

I was careful to acknowledge the value of having a rational approach.

 

And in the most recent post I acknowledged, sincerely, the achievement of alllllllll the other great thinkers and gifted individuals outside of the ancient Jewish traditions.  But that doesn't change it's not like the others.

 

Have you heard the story about the magic cucumbers?

 

I think it was Rabbi Akiva, he's walking along with a student teaching, and they start talking about cucumbers and.. 'poof' a field of cucumber magically sprouts.  "Ooopsie-doopsie, did I do that?"

 

Does that sound like typical ancient "science", or was it a "happy-accident"?  It's a totally different paradigm from what you seem to describing and what alllllllll the other cultures were doing.

 

They were engaging with forces of nature, natural laws, making fire and ice and everything in-between.  

 

If-then, reliable, consistent, like flipping a light switch.  The ancient Hebrews didn't do things this way.  That makes the individual a god, and the natural law their slave.  Instead the ancient Hebrews were devoted to their deity.  It's devotional, not gnostic.  Then blessings cascade...

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Daniel

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The short story is:

 

It's all the same deity being considered from different perspectives.  In summary, the theology of Moses is both immanent and transcendent.  The theology of Christianity is immanence.  The theology of Islam is transcendent.  After Christianity gained traction the theology of Christianity is rejected by mainstream Judaism rendering a theology of strict transcendence but also discouraging spiritual pursuit and faith based practice.

 

Here's the long story:

 

The early Christians, who were Jews, were looking for the "divine presence", the shechina (known in some circles as the Word), to return to the temple.  Before the Babylonian exile, according to the story, the divine presence, the shechina, visibly descended on the temple as a column of fire to consume the offerings which were brought there.  It was visible undeniable evidence of God dwelling with the Jewish people.  Then, the temple was destroyed by Nebachunezer as a result of repeated major transgressions.  While in exile, the leadership codified the law, setup academies to teach the law and the mythology to the people in hopes of preventing future exile, perhaps to fulfill the prophecy of Deuteronomy 28.  Before the exile, common people didn't really know much, and they were considered by the elite not to be trusted to follow the law.  ( They're called Am Ha'aretz, a pejorative, people of the earth ).  

 

So, Cyrus returns the Jewish people to their homeland, the people were much more observant, and they felt they were doing everything right.  But.... The visible obvious divine presence didn't return.  The talmud identifies three major crimes that everyone was committing in private which prevented this.  By the time Jesus arrived people were confused.  They expected and desired salvation.  Parents started naming their children Yeshua, which means "salvation" in hopes of bringing a savior from "the gallery of souls" for lack of better words.  Perhaps a reincarnation of King David, or even Moses, maybe Joshua, etc... Yeshua was a common name at that time.

 

The idea that God would incarnate in human form was foreign and antithetical to Jewish theology, but, there's links to it in Exodus 33, ideally read in the Hebrew.  But also Judges 13.  Manoah knows it's not god, but also claims to have seen God in human form and fears for his life.  Also the legends of the shechina/metatron, and "son of man", both set the scene for a human emissary for God which was essentially, in essence, no different than God, God incarnate.

 

After the destruction of the 2nd temple, Christianity was developed, and the disciples of Jesus who originally were convinced that "the world to come" aka "the kingdom of God" was at hand started to become discouraged and needed to explain to themselves and the early Christians why the world was still a mess, basically.  The Jews became scapegoats for killing their Lord, even though Jesus taught his sacrifice was required and was part of the plan.  He volunteered.  Scripture was written/ adjusted accordingly.  Anti Jewish elements are in the later scripture, not the earlier.

 

The result was a psychological splitting exaggerating a black/white good-vs-evil paradigm.  Jews, non believers, skeptics became the enemy.

 

Jews seeing the rise of antisemitism and the rise of missionary pursuit of uneducated unaffiliated Jews responded by rejecting God's immanence which was originally included in the theology of Moses.  But they also rejected anything "spiritual" or "faith based" because it felt that sounded too Christian.  This results in the modern mainstream Jewish theology of transcendence not immanence and discouraging spiritual pursuit.  

 

Around 1800ish there was a rival of spirituality and a return to the theology of Moses, but, it's not without the rejectors.  The three major denominations of Judaism still reject God's immanence, but there's a major fast growing trend to reintroduce spiritual elements to conservative and reform congregations.  But this is happening in general against the desire of the leadership who would prefer to be known as academics and scholars not spiritual leaders.

 

So, here's the progression mapped out.

 

1. Theology of Moses: spiritual, transcendent and immanent.
2. Christianity: spiritual and immanent 
3. Islam:  strictly transcendent, generally not spiritual
4. Modern Judaism:  rejecting Christianity, strictly transcendent discourages spirituality for all but the elite
5. Revival by some of the theology of Moses with many rejectors.

 

 

Thanks for that great deal of information Daniel.   Starting with your first sentence, "It's all the same deity being considered from different perspectives"  well that sounds plausible on the surface but to me is irreconcilable at the core...We have God in Islam which has scripture ordering the murder of those that don't convert to it,  we have scripture in Christianity that says those that don't convert to it in end will burn in eternal hell,  what exactly we have in Hebrew scripture along those lines I don't know because I have not studied it except for some parts given in the Old Testament, for instance their God favors the "chosen people" above all the rest of mankind with orders given in the Old testament to go out and murder this and that tribe of other peoples.   So it is very easy to see why millions have had good reason to have turned away from the Abrahamic religions.  More examples: Moses taught an eye for an eye,   Muhammad taught that he was the very last go-to prophet with a Koran that is frozen in the dark ages being that all other teachings are lesser or false thus resulting in millions being slaughtered in his name,  thankfully to me Jesus himself  rose far above most of that and had the best spiritual teachings of the Abrahamic religions when they were not corrupted by priests hell bent on co-opting him and the Bible to wield near absolute control and power over the common man, for instance Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount yet even that still did not completely reconcile the dichotomy between  Man and God being that much of mankind still had to and would burn in hell according to scripture  (per what is in the Bible as the fate of millions of native or pagan peoples)  Anyhow there are mystical aspects to all the Abrahamic religions like the Sufi's, the Kabbala, and esoteric Christianity yet those are not in effect, practice or known to most of us and so millions or billions of us are left living as "strangers in a strange land" to say the least!  For me the Upanishads and teachings very similar to them are the only ones where spiritual reconciliation is found and known 100% at its core. (and again with some other eastern teachings pointing to or having similarities to them)  That's my spiel for the day, see you around and thanks again for taking the time for your post.

PS. of course there are some exceptions to some of the bleak history I've pointed out above...

Edited August 5, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

So, here's the progression mapped out.

1. Theology of Moses: spiritual, transcendent and immanent.
2. Christianity: spiritual and immanent 
3. Islam:  strictly transcendent, generally not spiritual
4. Modern Judaism:  rejecting Christianity, strictly transcendent discourages spirituality for all but the elite
5. Revival by some of the theology of Moses with many rejectors.
    

 

 

At the risk of encouraging you, Daniel--what are the definitions and distinctions you're assuming in the three terms (spiritual, transcendent, and immanent)?  With examples.  Self-published on Amazon... no, as briefly as possible! 

[old3bob]

 

 

 

I love the actual ping pong game, more so when my ego wins over guys 30+ years younger than me.

Edited August 5, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

IE . I note you use the terms   related to the word 'law'  and  not 'religion'  .

 

Yes, but these are not natural laws.  They're laws from their benevolent monarch.  Not mixing wool and linen; not plowing with mixed cattle, no grafting trees, or mixed vineyards... plus a whole host of rather strange ones.  

 

 

Quote

Or put it this way ;  what was the difference ( for the Hebrew ) between  religious law  and other laws ? What where the non-religious laws ?

 

There's a couple of different models for that.  One is chukim vs. mishpatim.  One is Noahide vs. Mosaic law.

 

Basically, the chukim have zero obvious benefit or harm.  If I eat pork, or don't eat pork, nothing good or bad can be directly tied to it.  There is something happening, but, it's not obvious and it's not a 1-to-1 cause-effect.

 

And, according to mosaic law, non-Jews can eat pork without any problems at all.  Gauranteed.  So, there is no natural ( non-religious ) law that governs the benefit or harm from eating pork.  Same with wool+linen, but even more-so.

 

On the other hand, caring from the widow and the orphan ( classic misphat ), would be a natural law whose benefit is obvious.  From a more "noahide" perspective, setting up a justice system has obvious benefits for anyone.  

[old3bob]

we could also largely leave God out of our mess and recognize that mankind tends to create God in the image we want...

Edited August 5, 2023 by old3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

15 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Thanks for that great deal of information Daniel.   Starting with your first sentence, "It's all the same deity being considered from different perspectives"  well that sounds plausible on the surface but to me is irreconcilable at the core...We have God in Islam which has scripture ordering the murder of those that don't convert to it,  we have scripture in Christianity that says those that don't convert to it in end will burn in eternal hell,  what exactly we have in Hebrew scripture along those lines I don't know because I have not studied it except for some parts given in the Old Testament, for instance their God favors the "chosen people" above all the rest of mankind with orders given in the Old testament to go out and murder this and that tribe of other peoples.   So it is very easy to see why millions have had good reason to have turned away from the Abrahamic religions.  More examples: Moses taught an eye for an eye,   Muhammad taught that he was the very last go-to prophet with a Koran that is frozen in the dark ages being that all other teachings are lesser or false thus resulting in millions being slaughtered in his name,  thankfully to me Jesus himself  rose far above most of that and had the best spiritual teachings of the Abrahamic religions when they were not corrupted by priests hell bent on co-opting him and the Bible to wield near absolute control and power over the common man, for instance Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount yet even that still did not completely reconcile the dichotomy between  Man and God being that much of mankind still had to and would burn in hell according to scripture  (per what is in the Bible as the fate of millions of native or pagan peoples)  Anyhow there are mystical aspects to all the Abrahamic religions like the Sufi's, the Kabbala, and esoteric Christianity yet those are not in effect, practice or known to most of us and so millions or billions of us are left living as "strangers in a strange land" to say the least!  For me the Upanishads and teachings very similar to them are the only ones where spiritual reconciliation is found and known 100% at its core. (and again with some other eastern teachings pointing to or having similarities to them)  That's my spiel for the day, see you around and thanks again for taking the time for your post.

PS. of course there are some exceptions to some of the bleak history I've pointed out above...

 

I always maintained that at the core of all genuine religions, the same metaphysical truths can be found -- although sometimes with a different emphasis, and complementing each other when we look at different systems.

 

You can distill these principles out of the Bible and perhaps also out of the Koran, but it is true overall that certain apocryphal and Gnostic texts talk about them more openly. And in more or less close affiliation with the latter, we have Hermetism, (Neo-)Platonism, and Ancient Greek philosophy/metaphysics in general.

 

The three Abrahamic religions as commonly practised are exoteric systems "for the masses", with Sufism, the Kabbalah, and esoteric and mystical Christianity as their spiritual core. In contrast, the foundational texts of Hinduism, Daoism, and Buddhism are works that are openly metaphysical and esoteric in nature.

 

It goes without saying that, in the Eastern religions, things have been simplified for the general follower as well, but there is definitely less of a gap between their esoteric and their exoteric side.

 

I suppose that this is the reason why many spiritually inclined people are more attracted to Eastern than to Western traditions today -- at least in the earlier stages of their quest. Later, some of them may develop a more comprehensive view, though.

[old3bob]

"I always maintained that at the core of all genuine religions, the same metaphysical truths can be found -- although sometimes with a different emphasis, and complementing each other when we look at different systems."  Michael S.

 

I partially agree with this although religions are normally founded by human beings with their particular take put at the core of same...so depending upon how evolved their founders are has a great deal to do with what is genuine in regards to being aligned with the "metaphysical" or Spiritual Source that is not limited to human or earthly sensibilities... so goes the quandary and conundrum of mankind,  I also think the idea of dividing mankind into the advanced and the masses is at least problematic and in many cases counter to us working out our human problems.

 

Apparently many other creatures of the earth are feeling the mountains of dark anti-dharmic weight that we are bringing upon ourselves and them,  with some of them checking out from it, for example whales beaching themselves en masse!

Edited August 5, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

Thanks for that great deal of information Daniel. 

 

You're very welcome.

 

Quote

Starting with your first sentence, "It's all the same deity being considered from different perspectives"  well that sounds plausible on the surface but to me is irreconcilable at the core...

 

 Ye of little faith.  I believe I can move that mountain.  Or, conversely,  if i choose to, I can curse that little fig tree for not producing the desired fruit at the time and place of my choosing.  

 

Quote

We have God in Islam which has scripture ordering the murder of those that don't convert to it,  we have scripture in Christianity that says those that don't convert to it in end will burn in eternal hell,  what exactly we have in Hebrew scripture along those lines I don't know because I have not studied it except for some parts given in the Old Testament, for instance their God favors the "chosen people" above all the rest of mankind with orders given in the Old testament to go out and murder this and that tribe of other peoples.

 

Each of these are topics of their own; they can be harmonized; it takes work.  There's several ways to do it.  The easiest is simply listening to each group. They all say the other two have corrupted their own scripture.  Christian's call it "spiritual blindness', but it's basically the same thing.  Muslims say, "the scribes changed the scripture."  It's really no different than the intra-faith conflict between denominations.  Sunni v. Shia, trinitarian v. unitarian, Orthodox v. Reform v. Chassidic. 

 

Each intra-faith squabble involves claiming that some humans are fussing with the "scripture", but, they would not accuse each other of not worshipping the same god.  The same thing is happening inter-abrahamic-faith but on the macro scale.

 

So, it's the same "god-concept" different "scripture".

 

Quote

So it is very easy to see why millions have had good reason to have turned away from the Abrahamic religions.

 

Yes.  Which is why I propose that what I'm saying is only important for historical perspective, or maybe-maybe useful for reverse engineering what was achieved by each group.

 

Quote

More examples: Moses taught an eye for an eye,   Muhammad taught that he was the very last go-to prophet with a Koran that is frozen in the dark ages being that all other teachings are lesser or false thus resulting in millions being slaughtered in his name,  thankfully to me Jesus himself  rose far above most of that and had the best spiritual teachings of the Abrahamic religions when they were not corrupted by priests hell bent on co-opting him and the Bible to wield near absolute control and power over the common man, for instance Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount yet even that still did not completely reconcile the dichotomy between  Man and God being that much of mankind still had to and would burn in hell according to scripture  (per what is in the Bible as the fate of millions of native or pagan peoples) 

 

It's a huge topic.  Perhaps for a different venue.  Although I love-love talking about it.  Feel free to send me a private message if you want to talk more about it.

 

Quote

Anyhow there are mystical aspects to all the Abrahamic religions like the Sufi's, the Kabbala, and esoteric Christianity yet those are not in effect, practice or known to most of us and so millions or billions of us are left living as "strangers in a strange land" to say the least!

 

It's written there is one-"Torah" for both the stranger-in-a-strange-land and the native-born. ( Exodus 12:49 ).  There's a lot of facinating stuff in each group's scripture.  But I must admit, reading the Qur'an in english gives me a headache.  I think it's true what muslims say, "It's a totally different experience in arabic hearing it and understanding it from a muezzin."

 

Quote

For me the Upanishads and teachings very similar to them are the only ones where spiritual reconciliation is found and known 100% at its core. (and again with some other eastern teachings pointing to or having similarities to them)  That's my spiel for the day, see you around and thanks again for taking the time for your post.

 

I haven't spent any time with them.  Perhaps I'll do that soon.  Thank you as well for sharing your thoughts.

 

Quote

PS. of course there are some exceptions to some of the bleak history I've pointed out above...

 

Sure.  And it's within my own communty as well.  I have a dear friend coming from a Reform background who loves to point that out.  What I enjoy is reflecting on the fact that we agree on right and wrong thought speech and action.  But he is supporting that with a negative role model brought in the "Torah" of reform Judaism, and I am supporting it with the postive role model of the  "Torah" of chassidic Judaism.  And both "Torah's" have the same original language, but we are both reading it completely differently, and yet, magically, we're coming to the same conclusions which inform our individual life choices.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Daniel

[Michael Sternbach]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"I always maintained that at the core of all genuine religions, the same metaphysical truths can be found -- although sometimes with a different emphasis, and complementing each other when we look at different systems."  Michael S.

 

I partially agree with this although religions are normally founded by human beings with their particular take put at the core of same...so depending upon how evolved their founders are has a great deal to do with what is genuine in regards to being aligned with the "metaphysical" or Spiritual Source that is not limited to human or earthly sensibilities... so goes the quandary and I also think the idea of dividing mankind into the advanced and the masses is at least problematic and in many cases counter to us working on our human problems.

 

Well, I am not suggesting that people who are not on a spiritual path would be of less intrinsic value in any way. However, it has always been just a minority who was even interested in exploring the deeper question in seriousness.

 

It is quite inevitable that simplified and watered down representations of metaphysical reality would arise to satisfy the needs of those less inclined to do their own research. Typically, this involves the use of metaphors and comparisons with mundane things, that are easy to understand, but often fall short.

 

Sadly, with this comes the potential for outright misrepresentation of metaphysical truths for manipulative purposes.

 

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Apparently many other creatures of the earth are feeling the mountains of dark anti-dharmic weight that we are bringing upon ourselves and them,  with some of them checking out from it, for example whales beaching themselves en masse!

 

[Daniel]

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

At the risk of encouraging you, Daniel--what are the definitions and distinctions you're assuming in the three terms (spiritual, transcendent, and immanent)?  With examples.  Self-published on Amazon... no, as briefly as possible! 

 

Brevity sacrifices specificity.  If discourse is forced to be brief, generalizations and undeclared assumptions are a given and should accepted without any faults.  A complete list of the defintions, distinctions, and assumptions will be long.  These are complex concepts.  Regardless:

 

Top 2 assumptions:

 

1. The requested information regarding differing god-concepts/description among the "big-three" was *actually* theological and not political.
2. The person I was replying to is speaking the same language as I am.  Even though this is generally assumed when speaking english, it is not always true for complex theological concepts.

 

Definitions and distinctions, briefly, not a "self-published" book:

 

Theology of Moses = Trascendant+Immanent = Gen 14, the blessing by Malchi-tzedek and Abram's response.  Gen 18, Exodus 3, ( Hebrew language knowledge is needed ).  Jeremiah 23:24.  Isaiah 6:3.  And virtually the entire book of Deuteronomy, specifically 6:4, of course, but also, 4:35 and 39, which happen to be two of the key verses for the "dati" movement.  Some Hebrew knowledge is needed for those two verses.  The mid chapters of Isaiah are well known for their descriptions of a transcendant god.  A good jumping off point is chapter 40.  These culminate in chapter 45.

 

Theology of Jesus:  Immanence = John 1+John 14+ phillipians 2, and probably others.

 

Theology of Muhammad Transcendant:  99 names of Allah

 

Spiritual:  Pretty much anytime "spirit of..." or "holy spirit" is mentioned in the OT.  A list of occurances is below in a spoiler.  The best examples, imo, are Exo 31:3 and Exo 35:31.  Although, it's good to have some familiarity with African religions, the "san" people are good examples.  The levant is rather close to Africa, and there is a shared heritage.

 

Spoiler

Gen 41:38

And Pharaoh said to his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the spirit of God is?

Exo 31:3

And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all kinds of workmanship,

Exo 35:31

And he has filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in every kind of workmanship;

Numbers 24:2

And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

1 Sam 10:10

And when they came there to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1 Sam 11:6

And the spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those news, and his anger was greatly kindled.

1 Sam 19:20

And Saul sent messengers to take David; and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as chief over them, the spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

1 Sam 19:23

And he went there to Naioth in Ramah; and the spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

Ezekiel 11:24

Afterwards a spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the spirit of God to Chaldea, to the exiles. And the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Job 27:3

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4

The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life.

2 Chron 15:1

And the spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded;

2 Chron 24:20

And the spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, who stood above the people, and said to them, Thus said God, Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord, so that you cannot prosper? Because you have forsaken the Lord, he has also forsaken you.

Judges 3:10

And the spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war; and the Lord delivered Kushan-Rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Kushan-Rishathaim.

Judges 6:34

But the spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew a shofar; and Abiezer mustered behind him.

Judges 11:29

Then the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed over to the Ammonites.

Judges 13:25

And the spirit of the Lord began to stir him in Mahaneh-Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.

Judges 14:6

And the spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him, and he tore him as he would have torn a kid, and he had nothing in his hand; but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

Judges 14:9

And the spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their booty, and gave change of garments to those who had told the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father’s house.

Judges 15:14

And when he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him; and the spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him, and the ropes that were upon his arms became as flax that was burned with fire, and his bands melted from off his hands.

1 Sam 10:6

And the spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you shall prophesy with them, and shall be turned into another man.

1 Sam 16:13

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

1 Sam 16:14

But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

2 Sam 23:2

The spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and his word was in my tongue.

1 King 18:12

And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from you, that the spirit of the Lord shall carry you where I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find you, he shall slay me; but I your servant fear the Lord from my youth.

1 Kings 22:24

But Zedekiah the son of Kenaanah went near, and struck Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the spirit of the Lord from me to speak to you?

2 Kings 2:16

And they said to him, Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men; let them go, we beg you, and seek your master; lest perhaps the spirit of the Lord has taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or in some valley. And he said, you shall not send.

Isaiah 11:2

And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Isaiah 40:13

Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor has taught him?

Isaiah 61:1

The spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord has anointed me to announce good news to the humble; he has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Isaiah 63:14

Like cattle going down into the valley, the spirit of the Lord gave them rest; so did you lead your people, to make yourself a glorious name.

Ezekiel 11:5

And the spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, Speak; Thus said the Lord; Thus have you said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind, everyone of them.

Micah 2:7

O you who are named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the Lord impatient? Are these his doings? Do not my words do good to him who walks uprightly?

Michah 3:8

But truly I am full with power by the spirit of the Lord, and with judgment, and with might, to declare to Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

2 Chron 18:23

Then Zedekiah the son of Kenaanah came near, and struck Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way did the spirit of the Lord go from me to speak to you?

2 Chron 20:14

Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the spirit of the Lord in the midst of the congregation;

Isaiah 63:10-11

But they rebelled, and grieved his holy spirit; therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who put his holy spirit in him?

Psalms 51:13

Do not cast me away from your presence; and do not take your holy spirit from me.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Daniel

[liminal_luke]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:35 PM, Daniel said:

 

1. Modern Judaism:  rejecting Christianity, strictly transcendent discourages spirituality for all but the elite

 

It's been a long time since I participated in anything distinctly Jewish, but back in the day keeping Shabbat, davening, celebrating the various holidays -- it all felt "spiritual" to me.  I probably have a more expansive definition of spiritual than you're using and it's true that I wasn't studying Kabbalah.  Still, it seems to me that the Orthodox would view all Torah study and halachic observance as spiritual, no?

 

Ah, I just read your definition of "spiritual" above.  So maybe we are using the word differently?  Still, I think once you've said that God is one you're automatically in the area of spirit and God's immanence.  To me, oneness implies non-dualism.  So even if regular folk aren't studying the spiritual aspects of Torah in an explicit way it's there and bubbles up experientially.  Leaders can forbid the study of Kabbalah but they can't take the spirituality out of Judaism. It's baked in. (That's my "unpopular" opinion.)

Edited August 5, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Yes, but these are not natural laws.  They're laws from their benevolent monarch.  Not mixing wool and linen; not plowing with mixed cattle, no grafting trees, or mixed vineyards... plus a whole host of rather strange ones.  

 

What ?   You said temple was destroyed due to major transgressions ;  " as a result of repeated major transgressions "  and 

" While in exile, the leadership codified the law, setup academies to teach the law and the mythology to the people in hopes of preventing future exile, perhaps to fulfill the prophecy of Deuteronomy 28.   " 

 

I am talking about the major tenets of Judaism ( ie their religion ) being a system of law . and you are saying 'but they are not natural laws .'   Errrr ...  wot ?   
 

 

Are you saying the temple was destroyed due to transgressions about  grafting trees   and mixing linen and wool ?

 

 

 

There's a couple of different models for that.  One is chukim vs. mishpatim.  One is Noahide vs. Mosaic law.

 

Basically, the chukim have zero obvious benefit or harm.  If I eat pork, or don't eat pork, nothing good or bad can be directly tied to it.  There is something happening, but, it's not obvious and it's not a 1-to-1 cause-effect.

 

And, according to mosaic law, non-Jews can eat pork without any problems at all.  Gauranteed.  So, there is no natural ( non-religious ) law that governs the benefit or harm from eating pork.  Same with wool+linen, but even more-so.

 

You keep referring to tenets of Judaism as law . Just as I said , even while trying to explain that it is not

 

On the other hand, caring from the widow and the orphan ( classic misphat ), would be a natural law whose benefit is obvious.  From a more "noahide" perspective, setting up a justice system has obvious benefits for anyone.  

 

I am not attacking it, or saying it is wrong nor that it doesnt have benefits , its just a fact and the way people thought in the past , before  the 'materialistic  age'   and its well accepted in the fields of anthropology and comparative religion .

 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Brevity sacrifices specificity.  If discourse is forced to be brief, generalizations and undeclared assumptions are a given and should accepted without any faults.  A complete list of the defintions, distinctions, and assumptions will be long.  These are complex concepts.  Regardless:

 

Top 2 assumptions:

 

1. The requested information regarding differing god-concepts/description among the "big-three" was *actually* theological and not political.
2. The person I was replying to is speaking the same language as I am.  Even though this is generally assumed when speaking english, it is not always true for complex theological concepts.

 

Definitions and distinctions, briefly, not a "self-published" book:

 

Theology of Moses = Trascendant+Immanent = Gen 14, the blessing by Malchi-tzedek and Abram's response.  Gen 18, Exodus 3, ( Hebrew language knowledge is needed ).  Jeremiah 23:24.  Isaiah 6:3.  And virtually the entire book of Deuteronomy, specifically 6:4, of course, but also, 4:35 and 39, which happen to be two of the key verses for the "dati" movement.  Some Hebrew knowledge is needed for those two verses.  The mid chapters of Isaiah are well known for their descriptions of a transcendant god.  A good jumping off point is chapter 40.  These culminate in chapter 45.

 

Theology of Jesus:  Immanence = John 1+John 14+ phillipians 2, and probably others.

 

Theology of Muhammad Transcendant:  99 names of Allah

 

Spiritual:  Pretty much anytime "spirit of..." or "holy spirit" is mentioned in the OT.  A list of occurances is below in a spoiler.  The best examples, imo, are Exo 31:3 and Exo 35:31.  Although, it's good to have some familiarity with African religions, the "san" people are good examples.  The levant is rather close to Africa, and there is a shared heritage.

 

 

 

That was a lot of work, thanks for that.

Sorry to be a tad dense (some would say, brick-like).  I was looking for something more like:

 

Immanent:  existing or operating within; inherent.

transcendent:  beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience. 

 

spiritual (here's where the African familiarity comes in):  An African-American musical tradition rooted in slave folk songs.

spiritual, take 2:  relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things ("I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"); relating to religion or religious belief ("the tribe's spiritual leader").

(Oxford lanuguages, courtesy Google)

 

Ok, that gives me a general sense of what you mean when you say that "Theology of Moses = Transcendent+Immanent".  He performed miracles seemingly from within (immanent), while crediting the divine without (transcendent).

I guess I can see Jesus's spirituality as immanent, as "operating within, inherent".  On the cross, though, it was transcendent ("why hast thou forsaken me?").  

The definition of spiritual above doesn't really seem to match your use, at least so far as the quotes you provided.  Your references all have to do with "the spirit of God", "spirit of the Lord". 

Sounds like with your use of transcendent, immanent, and spiritual, we're talking about the trinity in another guise:  the father, son, and holy ghost.  

I particularly like:
 

Job 27:3

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils

 

 

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited August 6, 2023 by liminal_luke

[old3bob]

I sure don't agree with a "God" that would use Job as cannon fodder for an x amount of time...even with any hidden or greater meanings in doing so.

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

You're very welcome.

 

 

 Ye of little faith.  I believe I can move that mountain.  Or, conversely,  if i choose to, I can curse that little fig tree for not producing the desired fruit at the time and place of my choosing.  

 

 

Each of these are topics of their own; they can be harmonized; it takes work.  There's several ways to do it.  The easiest is simply listening to each group. They all say the other two have corrupted their own scripture.  Christian's call it "spiritual blindness', but it's basically the same thing.  Muslims say, "the scribes changed the scripture."  It's really no different than the intra-faith conflict between denominations.  Sunni v. Shia, trinitarian v. unitarian, Orthodox v. Reform v. Chassidic. 

 

Each intra-faith squabble involves claiming that some humans are fussing with the "scripture", but, they would not accuse each other of not worshipping the same god.  The same thing is happening inter-abrahamic-faith but on the macro scale.

 

So, it's the same "god-concept" different "scripture".

 

There was a time I agreed with this.  But then 'my god-concept' says it's ok to drive a truck into some innocent people or strap a bomb to me in a crowd.  Or my god concept says he gave us this land and we can steal it from those who live there - and shoot them if they object.  Or my god-concept says I can invade Middle east countries and kill their leaders so they can have our special values.

 

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

Yes.  Which is why I propose that what I'm saying is only important for historical perspective, or maybe-maybe useful for reverse engineering what was achieved by each group.

 

 

It's a huge topic.  Perhaps for a different venue.  Although I love-love talking about it.  Feel free to send me a private message if you want to talk more about it.

 

 

It's written there is one-"Torah" for both the stranger-in-a-strange-land and the native-born. ( Exodus 12:49 ).  There's a lot of facinating stuff in each group's scripture.  But I must admit, reading the Qur'an in english gives me a headache.  I think it's true what muslims say, "It's a totally different experience in arabic hearing it and understanding it from a muezzin."

 

 

I haven't spent any time with them.  Perhaps I'll do that soon.  Thank you as well for sharing your thoughts.

 

 

Sure.  And it's within my own communty as well.  I have a dear friend coming from a Reform background who loves to point that out.  What I enjoy is reflecting on the fact that we agree on right and wrong thought speech and action.  But he is supporting that with a negative role model brought in the "Torah" of reform Judaism, and I am supporting it with the postive role model of the  "Torah" of chassidic Judaism.  And both "Torah's" have the same original language, but we are both reading it completely differently, and yet, magically, we're coming to the same conclusions which inform our individual life choices.

 

 

I was good friends with an Orthodox Jew some years ago and I have to admit while I kind of admire the Jews in a lot of ways, their obsession with laws and rigid interpretation of the rules for living made me wonder which part was 'spiritual' in any way.  For instance don't push a baby in a pram on the sabbath because the wheels might cause ruts in muddy ground like ploughing (which would be classed as work) - also even weirder don't use the toilets in MacDonalds (even if you don't eat anything) because someone might see you coming out and think you had gone non-kosher.

 

Without offence (even though this is unpopular opinions) the outlook of most that I knew was very materialistic and weirdly obsessed by gambling.  In the end I couldn't make head or tail of what they thought they were getting out of it.

 

Christianity is no better by the way - and certainly in the Anglican and other Protestant churches there is literally nothing spiritual that I can detect.  Although I have to say that over the last few days the Pope held a youth congress in Lisbon which was attended by 1.5 million young people which is quite impressive.  I don't know any other religious leader who could raise such a crowd.  So maybe the Catholics got it right after all.

 

 

[steve]

I love this little parable by Anthony Demello on the relationship between spirituality and religion.

 

”After many years of labour an inventor discovered the art of making fire. He took his tools to the snow-clad northern regions and initiated a tribe into the art — and the advantages — of making fire. The people became so absorbed in this novelty that it did not occur to them to thank the inventor who one day quietly slipped away. Being one of those rare human beings endowed with greatness, he had no desire to be remembered or revered; all he sought was the satisfaction of knowing that someone had benefited from his discovery.

 

The next tribe he went to was just as eager to learn as the first. But the local priests, jealous of the stranger’s hold on the people, had him assassinated. To allay any suspicion of the crime, they had a portrait of the Great Inventor enthroned upon the main altar of the temple; and a liturgy designed so that his name would be revered and his memory kept alive. The greatest care was taken that not a single rubric of the liturgy was altered or omitted. The tools for making (ire were enshrined within a casket and were said to bring healing to all who laid their hands on them with faith.

 

The High Priest himself undertook the task of compiling a Life of the Inventor. This became the Holy book in which his loving kindness was offered as an example for all to emulate, his glorious deeds were eulogized, his superhuman nature made an article of faith. The priests saw to it that the Book was handed down to future generations, while they authoritatively interpreted the meaning of his words and the significance of his holy life and death. And they ruthlessly punished with death or excommunication anyone who deviated from their doctrine. Caught up as they were in these religious tasks, the people completely forgot the art of making fire.”

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

There was a time I agreed with this.  But then 'my god-concept' says it's ok to drive a truck into some innocent people or strap a bomb to me in a crowd.  Or my god concept says he gave us this land and we can steal it from those who live there - and shoot them if they object.  Or my god-concept says I can invade Middle east countries and kill their leaders so they can have our special values.

 

 

I was good friends with an Orthodox Jew some years ago and I have to admit while I kind of admire the Jews in a lot of ways, their obsession with laws and rigid interpretation of the rules for living made me wonder which part was 'spiritual' in any way.  For instance don't push a baby in a pram on the sabbath because the wheels might cause ruts in muddy ground like ploughing (which would be classed as work) - also even weirder don't use the toilets in MacDonalds (even if you don't eat anything) because someone might see you coming out and think you had gone non-kosher.

 

Without offence (even though this is unpopular opinions) the outlook of most that I knew was very materialistic and weirdly obsessed by gambling.  In the end I couldn't make head or tail of what they thought they were getting out of it.

 

Christianity is no better by the way - and certainly in the Anglican and other Protestant churches there is literally nothing spiritual that I can detect.  Although I have to say that over the last few days the Pope held a youth congress in Lisbon which was attended by 1.5 million young people which is quite impressive.  I don't know any other religious leader who could raise such a crowd.  So maybe the Catholics got it right after all.

 

 

(maybe some did but some have the skeletons of 100 million people in their closets...)