Unpopular Opinions

[Mark Foote]

On 8/1/2023 at 2:55 PM, Bindi said:

size doesn’t necessarily relate to importance though. For example, which is more important in reproduction, a relatively huge ovum or a teeny weenie sperm? 
 

Bindi, I was attempting to correlate your avatar with an anatomical detail--the differences in the strokes on the left and right of the avatar reminded me of the difference in the attachments of the diaphragm to the upper vertebrae of the spine, three vertebrae on the right side but only two on the left.  

Somehow that seems relevant to me, in terms of the engagement of hemispheres when sitting right leg on top, or sitting left leg on top.  A more wholistic perception is required with the left leg on top, at least for me--perhaps because the diaphragm engages fewer vertebrae?  

Long shots, my specialty...

 

[old3bob]

27 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

ha' penny (got the spelling wrong).

The leap of faith, that most often requires that the leaper be up against the wall, big time, before leaping.  Why is that.

The similarities between brain washing and religious conversion are well-documented in Sargant's "Battle for the Mind" (which I read at the tender age of 11).

 

agree that that is one possible case... another variation is not to hesitate which there are several sayings about, for instance, "he who hesitates is lost"  along with sayings like, "lead, follow or get out of the way"

Edited August 3, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

 

agree that that is one possible case... another variation is not to hesitate which there are several sayings about, for instance, "he who hesitates is lost"  
 

 

For me, I just hesitate all the more.  At this point, I have to do the work, and the work is g#!*d#!* ephemeral!

[old3bob]

per "Zen in the art of archery" there can be no hesitation during release to hit the mark, thus another spin on the idea...

[Bindi]

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If you allow some relation between Shiva and Shakti then they cannot be ultimately divided.

By ultimately I mean in absolute reality they are actually divided until such time as they are not, as opposed to they are ultimately United and merely appear to be divided because of our limited perspective. 

[old3bob]

there are both the duality and non-duality Saivite (or Siva) schools or sects, some assume there are only the duality schools when in fact the non-duality thus non-division school goes back for thousands of years...  Anyway I'd say The Source  can have no ultimate division,  not unlike that there can be no ultimate division in "The Great Tao", which is then said to also manifest into "The One, The Two, The Three..." etc., yet the Great Tao is pointed to as still transcendentally present, - so to speak or to use that term.  (any Taoist please correct me if i'm off with that para-phrase)

Edited August 3, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

On 8/1/2023 at 4:13 PM, Nungali said:

Not unless your 'karma'  can be instantly resolved in accepting Jesus as the one true and only God .

 

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

by taking Jesus within and giving their action over to Jesus can right be done, in the moment.

 

I think the statement / conflict that has been identified is relating to absolution of prior harmful actions againt self and others.  What you have brought is avoiding harmful actions in the moment.

 

While I have my own personal interpretation and understanding of how this is supposed to work.  I think, quite honestly, it's a dangerous path, and it's better to pay the debt, ideally on earth, within the individual's "current" lifetime.  "Current" is in quotes because "time" is wonky, for lack of a better word.

 

When Christianity fails, imo, it's when it over-simplifies where it needs to be complex.  And when it suceeds, it is accurately identifying simplicity which is being made to be complicated or overlooked.

 

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

there are many "fundamentalists" that proclaim all sorts of things which imo may have little or nothing to do with what Jesus taught and demonstrated

 

Classic hypocrisy, no?  They've conjured up and/or are enforcing their own man-made doctrines?  Sad, isn't it consider hypocrisy was the most frequent, number#1 rebuke, if I recall?

[Mark Foote]

55 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

I think the statement / conflict that has been identified is relating to absolution of prior harmful actions againt self and others.  What you have brought is avoiding harmful actions in the moment.

 

While I have my own personal interpretation and understanding of how this is supposed to work.  I think, quite honestly, it's a dangerous path, and it's better to pay the debt, ideally on earth, within the individual's "current" lifetime.  "Current" is in quotes because "time" is wonky, for lack of a better word.

 

 

"All my ancient and twisted karma, I do now fully avow"--the full moon ceremony chant, at many Zen centers.
 

Where there have been deeds… personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech-where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech-in the thought.

 

Either we of ourselves… plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned by ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe. So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after.

 

But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance… those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought… as occasion they are not. that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe.

 

(SN II 37-41, Vol II pg 31-32)

 

 

If you plan to pay the debt, you create more debt.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

I think the statement / conflict that has been identified is relating to absolution of prior harmful actions againt self and others.  What you have brought is avoiding harmful actions in the moment.

 

While I have my own personal interpretation and understanding of how this is supposed to work.  I think, quite honestly, it's a dangerous path, and it's better to pay the debt, ideally on earth, within the individual's "current" lifetime.  "Current" is in quotes because "time" is wonky, for lack of a better word.

 

When Christianity fails, imo, it's when it over-simplifies where it needs to be complex.  And when it suceeds, it is accurately identifying simplicity which is being made to be complicated or overlooked.

 

Classic hypocrisy, no?  They've conjured up and/or are enforcing their own man-made doctrines?  Sad, isn't it consider hypocrisy was the most frequent, number#1 rebuke, if I recall?

 

well I'd say not in all cases for all people,  for instance Jesus got after the  Pharisees for what could be called more of a pre-mediated hypocrisy,   but he also said with great compassion about some others,  "forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

Edited August 3, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

"All my ancient and twisted karma, I do now fully avow"--the full moon ceremony chant, at many Zen centers.
 

Where there have been deeds… personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech-where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech-in the thought.

 

Either we of ourselves… plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned by ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe. So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after.

 

But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance… those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought… as occasion they are not. that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe.

 

(SN II 37-41, Vol II pg 31-32)

 

 

If you plan to pay the debt, you create more debt.

 

Oh, was that the case with Milarepa?

[old3bob]

Besides this guy...

 

 is someone messing around with DNA or did a cooky dentist implant a full bridge into a fish as a gag?

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

If you plan to pay the debt, you create more debt.

 

Sure.  Never the less...

 

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

it's better to pay the debt, ideally on earth, within the individual's "current" lifetime

 

The debt should be paid, correct?

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well I'd say not in all cases for all people,  for instance Jesus got after the  Pharisees for what could be called more of a pre-mediated hypocrisy,   but he also said with great compassion about some others,  "forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

 

For the circumstances where a person identifying as a Christian enforces or judges based on "things which imo may have little or nothing to do with what Jesus taught and demonstrated" ( your choice of words not mine )?

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

For the circumstances where a person identifying as a Christian enforces or judges based on "things which imo may have little or nothing to do with what Jesus taught and demonstrated" ( your choice of words not mine )?

 

and did you finish that question?  "Judge the tree by it's fruit" is a good universal test besides just opinions or claims - if that is the kind of feedback you are looking for?  (I'd add that hopefully opinions are based on verified facts as much as possible...for instance Jim Jones claiming to be a Christian yet murdering hundreds of people with cyanide kool-aid, thus being a horrific and evil tree!  There are dozens maybe times dozens of horrific cases in the last 20-30 years in just the US along such lines,  and maybe tens of thousands of horrible examples of varying magnitude throughout world history!)

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

Geeze, did I  fail that badly in my explanations and efforts to dig up old references  ? 

 

No, it is was my fault, I was being too brief trying to avoid going elbow deep into something which is not relevant to daoism other than indicating another pair of competing interdependent partners.

 

The "there is no word for religion in Hebrew" is a meme put forward by a group of Modern Israelis, a rather large contingent, the "Dati" pronounced "Dahtee".  It means "my knowledge." It's geo-centered.  Your source is probably Israeli.  The fact is, it's not true, there are words for it, and traditionally Judaism was a religion in spite of the word "religion" being Greek in origin.

 

Generally the motivations for Jews to adopt this idea is rationalist, not gnostic, even though they phrasing is remarkably similar.  But there's various reasons that it is rewarding.  At the time it was introduced, again, in the 1200s, the philosophers were anti-mysticsm.  Anti-reincarnation.  There were several false Messiah claimants gaining traction.  Belief in reincarnation and mystical were identified as the cause.

 

Also these philosophers wanted to pursue Greek philosophy ( neo-platonism? ) and medicine in spite of being prohibited to do so by the a Jewish law.

 

Ironically one of the implications of this rational approach **permits** false Messiah claimants but from a different perspective.  Once the scripture is considered complete allegory, which is the rationalist point of view, then all of the metrics for who and what this Messiah is supposed to do are lowered.  The "end of days" and "the world to come" are no different and indistinguishable for any other time in history.  So almost any wise leader can be considered a Messiah, and 'poof' the 'end of days' is whenever that wise leader says it was, and the 'world to come' is bound to happen any day, any day now...

 

Hopefully you can see why an Israeli Jewish Christian would be rewarded by this idea?  And denying reincarnation is also an important doctrine for typical Christian recruiting.  There's much less urgency if on can be reincarnated without the everlasting torture.

 

Something to know about Israel.  Again, this rationalist 'dati' idea is localized.  They have a unique challenge there.  It's called 'Jerusalem Syndrome'.  If I were to describe it, it reminds me of qi deviation.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zou_huo_ru_mo

 

And it's not limited to Israel.  It's a risk for anyone delving too deeply into Jewish mysticism without being firmly grounded, mature, and being guided by a teacher.  But something happens in Israel that makes this more pronounced.  So they have vested interest in discouraging mysticism, discouraging any inspiration coming from past life experiences.  I was chatting with a Dati a few weeks ago and anytime the slightest mystical idea was floated two words were consistently said by them, regardless of how true or simple the idea:  "Kabala's Crazy".

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome

 

I'm not a daoist cultivator, so, I barely have words to describe this... But, it seems like with daoist cultivation there is a, forgive me, a physical component which can be stopped, and the individual suffering from qi deviation can recover somewhat quickly?  But with Jewish mysticism and Kabalah, it's virtually all cerebral.  The mind cannot let go of those ideas, sometimes, and the only way out is probably medication, perhaps long term.

 

So it's a big deal, in Israel especially, to discourage non-rational approaches to religion.  And there's reasons for others too.  There's so much more I can write about this, but, I'll stop here.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

My leige, may I be your mindful slave instead?  *curtsy*  

 

 

 

 

Ughh !

 

I find that disdainful !   and dont kneel, I may well kick you in the head while its down there .

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

nope, because that is too much totally lumping together which does not apply in all cases besides the case of Jesus.

 

Yep ,  because if you wanted to focus on that you should have said 'Jesus' or 'Jesus' teachings' and not Christianity .

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

No, it is was my fault, I was being too brief trying to avoid going elbow deep into something which is not relevant to daoism other than indicating another pair of competing interdependent partners.

 

The "there is no word for religion in Hebrew" is a meme put forward by a group of Modern Israelis, a rather large contingent, the "Dati" pronounced "Dahtee".  It means "my knowledge." It's geo-centered.  Your source is probably Israeli.  The fact is, it's not true, there are words for it, and traditionally Judaism was a religion in spite of the word "religion" being Greek in origin.

 

Generally the motivations for Jews to adopt this idea is rationalist, not gnostic, even though they phrasing is remarkably similar.  But there's various reasons that it is rewarding.  At the time it was introduced, again, in the 1200s, the philosophers were anti-mysticsm.  Anti-reincarnation.  There were several false Messiah claimants gaining traction.  Belief in reincarnation and mystical were identified as the cause.

 

Also these philosophers wanted to pursue Greek philosophy ( neo-platonism? ) and medicine in spite of being prohibited to do so by the a Jewish law.

 

Ironically one of the implications of this rational approach **permits** false Messiah claimants but from a different perspective.  Once the scripture is considered complete allegory, which is the rationalist point of view, then all of the metrics for who and what this Messiah is supposed to do are lowered.  The "end of days" and "the world to come" are no different and indistinguishable for any other time in history.  So almost any wise leader can be considered a Messiah, and 'poof' the 'end of days' is whenever that wise leader says it was, and the 'world to come' is bound to happen any day, any day now...

 

Hopefully you can see why an Israeli Jewish Christian would be rewarded by this idea?  And denying reincarnation is also an important doctrine for typical Christian recruiting.  There's much less urgency if on can be reincarnated without the everlasting torture.

 

Something to know about Israel.  Again, this rationalist 'dati' idea is localized.  They have a unique challenge there.  It's called 'Jerusalem Syndrome'.  If I were to describe it, it reminds me of qi deviation.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zou_huo_ru_mo

 

And it's not limited to Israel.  It's a risk for anyone delving too deeply into Jewish mysticism without being firmly grounded, mature, and being guided by a teacher.  But something happens in Israel that makes this more pronounced.  So they have vested interest in discouraging mysticism, discouraging any inspiration coming from past life experiences.  I was chatting with a Dati a few weeks ago and anytime the slightest mystical idea was floated two words were consistently said by them, regardless of how true or simple the idea:  "Kabala's Crazy".

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome

 

I'm not a daoist cultivator, so, I barely have words to describe this... But, it seems like with daoist cultivation there is a, forgive me, a physical component which can be stopped, and the individual suffering from qi deviation can recover somewhat quickly?  But with Jewish mysticism and Kabalah, it's virtually all cerebral.  The mind cannot let go of those ideas, sometimes, and the only way out is probably medication, perhaps long term.

 

So it's a big deal, in Israel especially, to discourage non-rational approaches to religion.  And there's reasons for others too.  There's so much more I can write about this, but, I'll stop here.

 

 

Do you want me to break out my flash drive again ?   

 

 

Its not influenced by what you say , but by across the board  research into many ancient cultures, not just Judaism .

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Sure.  Never the less...

 

 

The debt should be paid, correct?

 

Might be better to let it go to collections, and hope that if anyone applies for something in your name, that will earn them a rejection letter.

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

Yep ,  because if you wanted to focus on that you should have said 'Jesus' or 'Jesus' teachings' and not Christianity .

 

 

nope more or less or in the sense that there are many forms of "Christianity", thus it can be dicey to say which are following the teachings of Jesus and spiritual related principles the closest,  principles which are not just his,  for instance parts of the Old Testament that are not counter to parts of the New Testament or vice-versa... and again we can come back to the idea of judging a tree by its fruit...

 

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Oh, was that the case with Milarepa?
 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Sure.  Never the less...

 

 

The debt should be paid, correct?

 

There is no debt only action and consequence.   The idea of debt and payment comes from commerce.  As karma includes intent the weight of karma varies with intent.  Because of this through the blessings of a realized being karma can be removed.  This is perhaps similar to Jesus dying to save everyone from their sins - although not precisely the same.  From the perspective of pure perception there is no karma.

[old3bob]

or I'd say from the perspective of pure perception all karma is seen and understood...otherwise how could a realized being help one with their karma...they couldn't.

Edited August 3, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

with a face like that he has to be a cool guy!

[Daniel]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Do you want me to break out my flash drive again ?   

 

What I'm sayng is only important from a historical perspective, and, maybe-maybe useful for reverse engineering how the ancient hebrew beliefs, practices, rituals, were discovered and developed. 

 

Quote

 

 

Its not influenced by what you say , but by across the board  research into many ancient cultures, not just Judaism .

 

To be clear, I'm talking about a specific meme, an idea, put forward by a specific group of people in a specific time and place.  Modern Israeli.  The meme is talking about just judaism.  "Dahtee" meaning "My knowledge [ guides me ]".  Or I know I'm right **about Judaism**.  This idea is discouraging a specific mode of mystical, let's say, pursuit or inquiry.

 

My objection is two-fold.  First, the ancient hebrew religion was not one sided like this.  So, going back in time and overlaying that onto it is misrepresenting / rewriting history.  Second,  and this happens repeatedly across the board by academics and scholars of all sorts, the the anicent hebrew religion, for right-and-wrong was in opposition to all the other cultures and religions that surrounded it.  This means that when comparing what the others were doing, the ancient hebrews would be doing it differently, likely completely opposite.  The word "hebrew" means, from the other side of the ever, the river.  They were the others.  So, looking at what the many were doing successfully doesn't reflect what the ancient hebrews were doing.  It probably reflects the opposite.  Of all the things that irritate people about the Jewish people and practices, it is this "beng different for the sake of being different" that is, imo, the most pronounced for good reason.  It even drives its own citizens crazy.  Hence the desire to assimilate, and the conflict over assimilation.

 

But, none of this undermines the value of what the many other gifted people have done with the concepts brought by the ancient hebrew religion.  Nor is it devaluing the gnostic approach that the many other ancient cultures used to discover / produce their own monumental acheivements in the science of their time.  Alchemy, ritual, and craft are, like you said in your previous post, everywhere.  Defintely.  And the revising of the paradigm for the western culture, yes, happened around the 1800s.  But there is a substantial rationalist revolution happening much earlier in Judaism.  It did cause a huge schism.  And unless youve read those texts, I'm not sure why you would, their impression would not be recognizable on the Dati ( religious zionist ). 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Daniel