On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

There's certainly enough people claiming enlightenment in the West that we (me and whoever is interested in this topic) could collect a few instances of them being challenged on their enlightenment in interviews (I had already started to do this when I was writing the OP but decided not to make the thread specifically about Daniel)

The problem imo is when it comes to people like Frank Yang - who has bipolar disorder - but is encouraged to believe that during his manic episodes he’s experiencing enlightenment and during his depressive episodes it’s just a ‘dark night of the soul’.

 

extensive meditative practice and mental health issues are a tricky combination that must be handled very carefully.

 

[Wilhelm]

3 minutes ago, awaken said:

If you are a person who is willing to read the classics, it is absolutely impossible for you to only read the Tao Te Ching

That is not how it is in the West 

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So from what you said, you are not a person who can read classics at all, because you only know the Tao Te Ching and the Yin Fu Jing, and this is far from enough.

An odd assumption to make.  I am not planning to list all the classics I have read every time I talk about them...

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I don't think you are very enlightened

On this much we can find agreement  

 

On most other things I think we disagree, so no problem to stop this interaction for now.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

The problem imo is when it comes to people like Frank Yang - who has bipolar disorder - but is encouraged to believe that during his manic episodes he’s experiencing enlightenment and during his depressive episodes it’s just a ‘dark night of the soul’.

 

extensive meditative practice and mental health issues are a tricky combination that must be handled very carefully.

I'm not sure Daniel has ratified his claim to enlightenment, though apparently his method for doing so is psychological (do they talk of lacking a central subjective experience, do they acknowledge suffering in their life).  That said, I agree completely - I was watching Buddha Boy again yesterday as an article updating his situation came up, and I'm wondering if his was more the opposite issue -> ultra sharp meditation devoid of balancing factors leading to mental illness

[awaken]

9 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

That is not how it is in the West 

An odd assumption to make.  I am not planning to list all the classics I have read every time I talk about them...

On this much we can find agreement  

 

On most other things I think we disagree, so no problem to stop this interaction for now.

 

I'm not that great, I can't help the whole western world by myself.

 

我沒那麼偉大，我一個人沒辦法幫得了整個西方世界。

 

This is a dialogue between you and me. It doesn't make sense to drag the whole West into it.

 

這是你跟我之間的對話，把整個西方拖進來，沒什麼意義。

 

As far as I am concerned, I will not only read the Tao Te Ching, it is very narrow.

I can read classical Chinese very quickly, so it is impossible for me to read only one Tao Te Ching.

 

就我自己而言，我不會只看過道德經，這樣是非常狹隘的。

我能用很快的速度看過文言文，因此只看一本道德經對我來說是不可能的事情。

 

If you have read many scriptures, then you should know what I am talking about, you should not drag the whole West into it.

I didn't drag the whole Chinese world into it either.

 

如果你讀過很多本經書，那你應該知道我在說什麼，你就不應該把整個西方拖進來。

我也沒把整個華人世界拖進來。

 

I know that even in the Chinese world, there are very few people who can read and understand as many classics as I do.

 

我知道就算是華人世界能像我閱讀這麼多經典而且能看得懂的人數量也是非常少的。

 

So what I am talking about is a universal value. What a person who is determined to practice the ultimate dharma will do, it has nothing to do with whether he is a Westerner or an Easterner.

 

所以我說的是一種普世價值，一個有心修煉究竟法的人，他會怎麼做，這跟他是西方人或東方人無關。

Edited January 24, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, awaken said:

I'm not that great, I can't help the whole western world by myself.

 

我沒那麼偉大，我一個人沒辦法幫得了整個西方世界。

 

This is a dialogue between you and me. It doesn't make sense to drag the whole West into it.

 

這是你跟我之間的對話，把整個西方拖進來，沒什麼意義。

This is a thread on the literal or metaphorical interpretation of the classics which is repeatedly becoming derailed in true Daobums fashion 

 

Thank you for your contribution.  I think many things are becoming lost in translation and I don't want to cause any aggravation with someone I don't know

[Piyadasi]

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I was watching Buddha Boy again yesterday as an article updating his situation came up, and I'm wondering if his was more the opposite issue -> ultra sharp meditation devoid of balancing factors leading to mental illness

Just to derail the thread a bit more...

What's the update for the "Buddha Boy"?

[awaken]

It's not that easy to be successful.

Misguided people far outnumber successful people.

You won't hurt me.

Usually I block people just because they are stubborn and hopeless.

You may have read many scriptures, but they are of no help to your practice. I can understand your feelings, because there are many such people.

I was one of those people myself.

If you want to succeed, you must let go of fixed methods.

There is no fixed path to success.

When you focus your consciousness on a place that you think is safe every time you practice, you are making the biggest mistake.

Do nothing, do not live, is the greatest principle

 

要成功沒那麼容易。

被誤導的人遠遠大於成功的人。

你不會傷害到我的。

通常我會封鎖人，只是因為對方冥頑不靈，毫無成功的希望。

你可能看過很多經典，但是對於你的修行卻毫無幫助，我可以了解你的感受，因為這樣的人很多。

我自己也曾經是其中一個人。

你如果要成功，你一定要放下固定的方法。

通往成功的路，是沒有固定的方法的。

當你每次的修煉當中，你把你的意識焦點放置在一個你認為安心的地方的時候，你就是犯下最大的錯誤。

無為，無住，是最大的原則

 

Even if you practice Qi for a lifetime, it is impossible to produce immortals in the classics.

Shen(immortal) comes from cultivating Shen(awareness, consciousness), and the Chinese has been spoken very clearly.

 

你就算練氣練上一輩子，也不可能產生經典當中不朽的神仙。

神就是從練神出來的，中文已經說得非常清楚了。

 

When you are practicing qi while studying the rainbow body, you will be very divided.

Because you are looking for fish in the tree, this is a Chinese idiom.

 

當你一邊練氣，一邊卻在研究虹光身，這樣你會非常分裂的。

因為你正在樹上找魚，這是一句中國成語，緣木求魚。

 

 

There are too many people here who think that practicing qi can nourish the fetus. This is a very serious mistake.

Practicing qi cannot raise a fetus.

 

這裡有太多人以為練氣可以養胎，這是非常嚴重的錯誤。

練氣不可能養胎。

 

If your wish is to become an immortal .

You must give up the method of Qi training and change to the cultivation of Shen.

 

如果你的心願是練成不朽的神仙。

你就一定要捨棄練氣的方法，改成練神。

Edited January 24, 2023 by awaken

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Either the white light is there or it is not.   A reasonable person would not and cannot lie to himself. Unfortunately 'our arts' attract a very significant percentage of unreasonable persons.  And there is no reasoning with them. 

 

I agree it is either there or it isn't

 

Things like imagining stuff above your head. ( https://www.bambooshamen.org/home/zen-master-hakuin-the-soft-butter-method)

 

I mean that's just lying to yourself and pretending there's something there that isn't

 

Right?  

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Wilhelm]

17 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Just to derail the thread a bit more...

What's the update for the "Buddha Boy"?

The usual, unfortunately

 

Obtain power -> start cult -> do bad things

[forestofemptiness]

Regarding Ingram, I think Bikkhu Analayo wrote a great article on the matter in which he stacks the teachings against traditional Theravadan commentaries. Overall, having practiced in this way and interacted with many practitioners, I do think it is a method that produces a lot of interesting experiences but lacks the transformative insights key to Buddhist practice:

 

Meditation Maps, Attainment Claims, and the Adversities of Mindfulness (springer.com)

 

 

[Mandrake]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The problem imo is when it comes to people like Frank Yang - who has bipolar disorder - but is encouraged to believe that during his manic episodes he’s experiencing enlightenment and during his depressive episodes it’s just a ‘dark night of the soul’.

 

 

This term, " dark night of the soul’" is also something that has been hugely misunderstood.
Originally found in a Christian contemplative scripture, where it described an inner experience that actually is positive, from what I remember, it is now used as a blanket New Age term for anything uncomfortable that a spiritually entitled person goes through just because s/he happens to meditate etc.

 

 

M

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

If these were metaphorical/not-literal then the reader would not know what the description means so who would read a useless book? Why would any one write a useless book? Obviously  the goalposts are literal. 

Thanks for making a distinction between literal goalposts and literal language, as I hadn't considered in writing the OP the added complexity of metaphorical language ever present in specifically Daoist texts.

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Nothing.  First of all such validation is  useless. If the book says at some point i will see a white light then either there is the light or there is not. What is there to validate? Second of all if a teacher telepathically knows what is going on in the mind/body of his student then they both are deluding themselves. Same  for the mutual body fluids tasting. Your goalposts are your responsibility only.

I appreciate your focus on self reliance 🙏

 

The white light is a good example, because I think many people have seen some fragmentation of (perhaps dim) white light appearing behind their own closed eyes at some point in their life.  But even this is spoken of metaphorically.  How then can someone be expected to grapple with concepts completely alien to their experience (Such as an immortal fetus)?  Is there not some risk of adapting ones interpretation of such a thing to fit ones own experience - given no external confirmation is sought?

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

But thats the thing with literalness. There is nothing to interpret or to move. Either the white light is there or it is not.   A reasonable person would not and cannot lie to himself. Unfortunately 'our arts' attract a very significant percentage of unreasonable persons.  And there is no reasoning with them. 

I disagree.  In my experience everyone here is applying a separate internal logic to their own practice, and it's in the differences in each of our reasoning and knowledge that we get many of the discussions here.

 

Do I mean to say that everyone is correct?  Of course not.  But anyone on the forum could be asked why they're doing what they're doing and they will give an answer that makes sense to them.

 

[Piyadasi]

32 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

The usual, unfortunately

 

Obtain power -> start cult -> do bad things

Hmm... that is very unfortunate to see. The thing is, this guy is a legitimate high level master.

I can imagine 3 things at play:

1. The accusations are there to tear him down. This seems somewhat unlikely seeing just how much has been leveled against him, it seems improbable that all are fake, but it's not impossible. There is a story in the Pali Canon, where enemies of the Buddha hire a prostitute to visit him and the monks at regular periods for some length of time. Then they kill her and bury her on monastery grounds, which later they mean to uncover and accuse the Buddha not only of consorting with prostitutes, but going so far as to kill her. Clearly people are willing to go to extreme lengths to tear down those who are very high up in comparison to them... I don't think it's 100% impossible that this the case.

2. They are at least legit to some extent or another and something went extremely wrong at his level of practice that caused a massive spiral down into hell.

3. They are at least legit to some extent or another and some kind of intensely bad karma is playing itself out, as freeform has mentioned multiple times can happen at stages when there is contact with Spirit.

The last two are not an excuse for anything, really just making conversation. In any case it's very sad to see.

It is kind of crazy to think about it though, the fact that some bum from a Nepalese village has such a pervasive influence because of his 'power' - whatever it's quality - that he can generate all kinds of reactions not only in his entire country, but also all over across the globe, among people he'll likely never even meet... Just highlights to me the extreme responsibility / weight that high level spiritual practice carries with itself.

Sorry for the classic thread derail posts - was curious for any news around this person.

[Wilhelm]

15 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Hmm... that is very unfortunate to see. The thing is, this guy is a legitimate high level master.

I can imagine 3 things at play:

My impression was of a practitioner who had achieved high level of skill in Samadhi without corresponding skill in Sila or Prajna.  Impressive in and of itself but not necessarily enough to make him a teacher of the Dharma.  If everything in the above article is true it just goes to show the wisdom behind the threefold training, and how we might over-emphasize the one that (to me) seems the hardest...

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It is kind of crazy to think about it though, the fact that some bum from a Nepalese village has such a pervasive influence because of his 'power' - whatever it's quality - that he can generate all kinds of reactions not only in his entire country, but also all over across the globe, among people he'll likely never even meet... Just highlights to me the extreme responsibility / weight that high level spiritual practice carries with itself.

If nothing else I've taken away from his example the depth that is possible in meditative practice.  If he deviated and did all the horrible things listed above, then I'll definitely not be listening to anything he says - but maybe I'll stop complaining when my knees start to burn after an hour or two of sitting 

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Sorry for the classic thread derail posts - was curious for any news around this person.

The thread's long been fucked, and I need to be less rigid in the presence of Daobums' patented ever-branching stream of consciousness anyways  

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wilhelm

[steve]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

The thread's long been fucked, and I need to be less rigid in the presence of Daobums' patented ever-branching stream of consciousness anyways

 

You’re welcome, there is no extra charge for this critical element of your training, Grasshopper….

 

🤣

[C T]

Forgot to mention I didn't pick any of the available options as my experience so far has shown esoterica to be a highly fluid and organic pathway, and therefore, I feel it unwise (for me, not anyone else) to box things up neatly because I have an old, reliable inbuilt habit mechanism that intelligently guides to maintain certain familiar structures that suit my fixations, and often even add layers to my neuroticism. We thrive on familiarity, most of us, don't we? It's comfortable. 

 

To do well as a cultivator or meditator is quite a feat. It demands a lot of courage and fortitude to dare enter into places where we know its par for the course to constantly have the rug pulled from under our feet. (Ideally, a trusted spiritual friend or mentor will be there to do the pulling). When we believe an attainment to be literal, that good mentor will throw a curve ball to shake certain deeply held comforters seen to take root. He or she will do the same when we hold to the other extreme view.

 

Without a certain level of maturity, we may well think the issue centres around attainments per se when in fact, the crux of this awakening exercise is aimed at dissolving fixations, often manifesting as a belief in one thing vs a disbelief in another. Talk about dualistic tendencies.... 

 

I think a truly established, devoted practitioner knows, or at least have a feel that  the nature of reality to be ephemeral and dream-like. How else could it be because fundamental reality is inseparable from potentiality. Isn't this potentiality the only worthwhile reason needed to make us hold fast, and come hell or high water, ride the spiritual windhorse bravely into the unknown? It wouldn't be as much fun if there actually was a real goalpost or destination. Or would it? 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by C T
Cleaning work

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, steve said:

 

You’re welcome, there is no extra charge for this critical element of your training, Grasshopper….

 

🤣

It's a feature, not a bug 

[Creation]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I felt that he’s kinda at the centre of a lot of the Buddhist meditation scene in the west - but when you listen to him, there’s no Dharma at all…

 

Allow me to run something by you, a very thoughtful description of the permanent shift in perception that occurred for someone at the far end of the path Ingram teaches:

https://medium.com/@rogerthis/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind-4bccbf65c539

Would you let me know what you think of this, and what it has to do, if anything, with real Dharma as you understand it? 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Creation

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

I voted “other” because sometimes the descriptions are literal while other times they are encoded. In the Hindu yoga/tantra world especially, the language used is called “sandhya bhasha” or literally “twilight language”. One needs to be an insider, ie with a teacher who is an insider to understand what is expressed in this language. So, attainments described often mean something completely different than what they mean literally. 

Thanks for making this distinction which I was unable to succinctly put into the poll _/ \_

 

Then with a teacher - are we able to confirm their status as an insider using our own discretion, or is there some necessary element of trust or even faith?

[dwai]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

Thanks for making this distinction which I was unable to succinctly put into the poll _/ \_

 

Then with a teacher - are we able to confirm their status as an insider using our own discretion, or is there some necessary element of trust or even faith?

It is harder nowadays, but this kind of stuff works using 'networking', akin to how finding a job or candidate for a job works in the regular world. 

 

For example, I know some reliable people whom I trust and who are, in turn, connected to teachers via their direct knowledge or indirectly through a trusted network. Access to such networks is not very easy, but it is possible.

 

For example, I've had people on TDB reach out to me for help - depending on what they want, I have helped them out where possible, or if they needed specialized knowledge, I have referred them to trusted individuals in my network. I suspect the process works much as it works for me personally - I evaluate the individual's sincerity and then decide if I want to help them. 

 

Another way to get into this process would be to start with a popular system like Art of Living, Isha Foundation, the Bihar School of Yoga, a Vedanta society, the Chinmaya Mission, etc. Once individuals have spent enough time in these systems, they will develop their own networks and connections for deeper knowledge (if necessary). 

[Wilhelm]

20 minutes ago, Creation said:

 

Disclaimer: don't understand a lick of Dharma but am enjoying the topic and article 

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the full reduced suffering benefits

Reducing but not ending suffering - an alternative interpretation of the third noble truth?

 

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I really encourage people to come up with their own ways of describing their insights and not just default to the common spiritual catchphrases. This not only brings novel descriptions which may help the rest of us, but is a much better indicator to yourself that you understand the relevant insight and are less likely to be deceiving yourself

Somehow we're back on topic!  😍 My overly rigid heart is throbbing with excitement!

 

So the author suggests that all self-taught practitioners (or put another way - practitioners who learned from books) using the same language will very often be describing subtly different experiences using the shared language - until said language (the examples he gave were sense of self, or no-self, consciousness, form, emptiness, infinitude, oneness and non-duality) don't really mean anything as we're all talking about something different. 

 

There's a lot more to the article that'd be good for someone with experience to talk about, but I really enjoyed the authors contribution to my topic (unfortunately my world still seems to revolve around me - more practice needed!)

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Another way to get into this process would be to start with a popular system like Art of Living, Isha Foundation, the Bihar School of Yoga, a Vedanta society, the Chinmaya Mission, etc. Once individuals have spent enough time in these systems, they will develop their own networks and connections for deeper knowledge (if necessary). 

Thank you again 🙏 and this is off topic but I was planning on asking the forum why Yogic methods were relatively under represented despite the prevalence of modern (though admittedly watered down) Hatha in the West.

 

I wanted to know which Yogic schools were available that sought the deeper teachings so thank you for listing a few (I spent a few years at one of them a decade ago and can vouch for it, and am excited to look into the rest of the list for personal interest)

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Thank you again 🙏 and this is off topic but I was planning on asking the forum why Yogic methods were relatively under represented despite the prevalence of modern (though admittedly watered down) Hatha in the West.

Because Western "Yoga" is not real yoga (for the most part), it is what some folks call "vikalanga" yoga (vikalanga means handicapped) because it focuses on only the asana aspect of ashtanga (8-limbed) yoga. 

9 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

I wanted to know which Yogic schools were available that sought the deeper teachings so thank you for listing a few (I spent a few years at one of them a decade ago and can vouch for it, and am excited to look into the rest of the list for personal interest)

Interesting - which one were you part of?

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Interesting - which one were you part of?

Isha - attending a foundational workshop in America then studying a bit further at the Tennessee school 

[dwai]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

Isha - attending a foundational workshop in America then studying a bit further at the Tennessee school 

So you did Shambhavi? Do you still practice it?