What controls the Chi

[masta]

When we learn chi feel and moving we are using our mind ...but originally who controls the Chi exactly ? Is it the Shen ?

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, masta said:

When we learn chi feel and moving we are using our mind ...but originally who controls the Chi exactly ? Is it the Shen ?

If you want a traditional answer, it is all out there in the internet. If you want a scientific answer, it takes some effort to combine your physical and biological knowledge of your body.

[Cobie]

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Edited December 8, 2022 by Cobie

[Nintendao]

In Tai Chi, the Three Internal Harmonies describe a progression through "shen yi qi li"

神 (1) 意 (2) 氣 (3) 力

 

1. Shen, a pervasive shining spirit, localizes as awareness within the field of yi, heart/mind. All things, even empty space, contain at least some fragment of consciousness. Attention on attention brings this potentiality into focus. This is sometimes called the spirit blessing the mind.

 

2. Yi, intention moves at will throughout the body. Like gently leading an ox with a leash, attention placed within a location then sparks up an increase of the energy reactions taking place there. This is often called the mind leading the qi.

 

3. Qi, the vibrations then imbue into the flesh and bone support and strengthening, li. This is called how they say "breathe into" some part or other.

 

As I always like to point out, this is only a certain angle of looking at it.

[masta]

3 hours ago, Nintendao said:

In Tai Chi, the Three Internal Harmonies describe a progression through "shen yi qi li"

神 (1) 意 (2) 氣 (3) 力

 

1. Shen, a pervasive shining spirit, localizes as awareness within the field of yi, heart/mind. All things, even empty space, contain at least some fragment of consciousness. Attention on attention brings this potentiality into focus. This is sometimes called the spirit blessing the mind.

 

2. Yi, intention moves at will throughout the body. Like gently leading an ox with a leash, attention placed within a location then sparks up an increase of the energy reactions taking place there. This is often called the mind leading the qi.

 

3. Qi, the vibrations then imbue into the flesh and bone support and strengthening, li. This is called how they say "breathe into" some part or other.

 

As I always like to point out, this is only a certain angle of looking at it.

Is it possible that Yi is overcoming the shen and disturb the natural shen balance?

[Nintendao]

5 hours ago, masta said:

Is it possible that Yi is overcoming the shen and disturb the natural shen balance?

 

Could be.. 

I think it happens the more we are out of alignment with the Dao, like pushing too hard, vs being in the "flow" / wu-wei

 

Quote

48

Learning consists in daily accumulating;
The practice of Tao consists in daily diminishing.

 

Keep on diminishing and diminishing,
Until you reach the state of Non-Ado.
No-Ado, and yet nothing is left undone.

 

To win the world, one must renounce all.
If one still has private ends to serve,
One will never be able to win the world.

 

[Mig]

13 hours ago, Nintendao said:

In Tai Chi, the Three Internal Harmonies describe a progression through "shen yi qi li"

神 (1) 意 (2) 氣 (3) 力

 

1. Shen, a pervasive shining spirit, localizes as awareness within the field of yi, heart/mind. All things, even empty space, contain at least some fragment of consciousness. Attention on attention brings this potentiality into focus. This is sometimes called the spirit blessing the mind.

 

2. Yi, intention moves at will throughout the body. Like gently leading an ox with a leash, attention placed within a location then sparks up an increase of the energy reactions taking place there. This is often called the mind leading the qi.

 

3. Qi, the vibrations then imbue into the flesh and bone support and strengthening, li. This is called how they say "breathe into" some part or other.

 

As I always like to point out, this is only a certain angle of looking at it.

What is 神  shén? it sounds more than awareness, isn't it? or what's spirit in practical terms? Is it just an abstract term that everyone or a lineage take it for granted?

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, Mig said:

What is 神  shén? it sounds more than awareness, isn't it? or what's spirit in practical terms? Is it just an abstract term that everyone or a lineage take it for granted?

 

Right, only called it as awareness when condensed locally. For me it has a lot do with meaning and experience, the information patterns encoded within the medium of energy. Imagine how these words can be written on a paper, typed into the internet, or limitless other ways of engraving, encoding, transmitting. Merely describing those media tells us nothing about what the word actually says! It takes understanding and connection. That is part of one gateway to that realm. Again there will be so many levels to it, and as you see applied in different contexts. In some sense it just means the most refined form of qi. Like how quantum fields begin to take on capabilities far beyond what is known to be capable by classical matter. I will leave any further detail up to anyone more qualified than me

Edited December 8, 2022 by Nintendao

[Nintendao]

神 

etymologically speaking: 

神 = 示(三,上) + 申(𦥔)

Shén - Spirit, God.

Revelation 示 shì of three 三 sān elements above 上 shàng, as Sun, Moon, and Stars, extend 申 shēn down like lightning through two hands girded as in supplication.

Spoiler

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Nintendao

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Mig said:

What is 神  shén? it sounds more than awareness, isn't it? or what's spirit in practical terms? Is it just an abstract term that everyone or a lineage take it for granted?

Within the three treasures, 神 (shén) is like the spirit of the body. It is an visible image reveals the emotional state of the body. By looking at the body, the shen(神) will show a spiritual mood. It shows that one may be happy or sad. The moods can be lively, cheerful, sad, or in fear. It also shows the body's intention what it will do next. It could be shown how mean the person is by sending out a signal for people to stay away.

It may show what kind of illness is within the body. A pale face indicates that a person might be in suffocation of air. In other words, lack of oxygen, due to breathing problem.

A person is lack of oxygen would have poor blood circulation. It will cause to have tired eyes and the face looks grotesque. The voice will be low and cannot compete a full sentence with one breath. The Shen(神) is used, here, to reveal the health condition of the body.

The description of Shen(神), here, may be a little off the tradition concept but it give a general idea perhaps is not to much off.

[Nintendao]

On 12/8/2022 at 7:42 PM, ChiDragon said:

The description of Shen(神), here, may be a little off the tradition concept but it give a general idea perhaps is not to much off.

That’s cool perspective how shen is seen in diagnosis. While there are significant mystical uses, right in front of us is this familiar experience of spirit. For instance if someone is said to be in high spirits, we can instantly imagine a certain animated quality. A whole crowd can share team spirit by getting hyped at the basketball game. They describe energetic patterns.

 

If you deliberately put a smile on your face, after a few seconds you may feel rising or warming effects in other parts of you energy. By the act of smiling or frowning, have you added or taken away any substance? They are configuration changes, and then the qi catches up.

[Wu Ming Jen]

True spirit or acquired spirit moving the body Chi. Most allow the acquired spirit to take control and can cause much trouble in our lives.  Once we remember our true spirit and put it in charge the acquired sprit will follow that light like a lover.

[Neirong]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:22 PM, masta said:

When we learn chi feel and moving we are using our mind ...but originally who controls the Chi exactly ? Is it the Shen ?

What controls your body?

[dawei]

In the very ancient text, Heng Xian, 恒先, Qi is self-generating and self-arising. This is a more cosmological text. Mencius said, Qi flows from intent. There is some truth to this but what directs it? Seems the heart. If anyone does QIgong or Taiji, they know Qi flows on many directions. At higher levels, it seems mental games. 

[Lairg]

If Chi is the life force, does it come from a great entity?

 

Perhaps Intent causes Existence.   If so, Intent may appear within Existence as Chi.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

If Chi is the life force, does it come from a great entity?

 

Perhaps Intent causes Existence.   If so, Intent may appear within Existence as Chi.

 

The notion of qi as life force is a common oversimplification of a word with a lot of possible meanings.  In posts that I made in a Topic called "A Science of Wuwei?" a few years ago I examine the meanings of qi in a wider context than the merely biological which should provide a good context for discussion.

 

the first post is here:

and my last post is on Page four  Posted November 30, 2018

 

Reading these post will give one a much better sense of the larger meanings of qi as well as some useful background in Chinese Cosmology.

 

It is a real pleasure to see dawei posting here again, as he has a profound knowledge of Daoist belief and practice:

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

In the very ancient text, Heng Xian, 恒先, Qi is self-generating and self-arising. This is a more cosmological text. Mencius said, Qi flows from intent. There is some truth to this but what directs it? Seems the heart. If anyone does QIgong or Taiji, they know Qi flows on many directions. At higher levels, it seems mental games. 

 

The above is fundamentally correct, though I will try to expand a little on it in a later post.  Right now it is almost one am where I live and time for me to head to bed.

 

ZYD

[Lairg]

3 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Mencius said, Qi flows from intent.

 

I agree with that.   The question then is:  does that intent arise before Existence?

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

When I said this:

 

8 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

10 hours ago, dawei said:

In the very ancient text, Heng Xian, 恒先, Qi is self-generating and self-arising. This is a more cosmological text. Mencius said, Qi flows from intent. There is some truth to this but what directs it? Seems the heart. If anyone does QIgong or Taiji, they know Qi flows on many directions. At higher levels, it seems mental games. 

 

The above is fundamentally correct, though I will try to expand a little on it in a later post.  Right now it is almost one am where I live and time for me to head to bed.

 

I meant that I thought that dawei had mentioned the basics, but I was not completely happy with with how he had written about them.  In particular "Mencius said, Qi flows from intent.", puzzled me.  It has been twenty years since I did my principle study of Mencius and qi and I don't remember anything exactly like this, but dawei may have been hurried and working from memory.  However dawei does mention intent, derived from the Chinese 意, yì (idea / meaning / thought / to think / wish / desire / intention / to expect / to anticipate), which is used as a technical term for an ability inherent in 心, xīn (heart / mind / intention / center / core) to use imagination to "form" qi and to imbue it with a specific intention or purpose.  A typical example of this would be the creation of a "thought form" examples of which can be found in the books of Professor Jerry Alan Johnson.  This ability is used in Daoist Healing, Martial Arts and Magic and becoming skill and adept in its use is an important part of Daoist training.

 

As far as Mencius and qi goes his quote about the "floodlike qi" is well know and I quote it in the topic "Confucian Qigong":

On 9/5/2013 at 12:20 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

As I have noted, I will post as time permits and I don't have a lot of spare time right now, but the following is one of the earliest surviving mentions of Qigong in Chinese literature and is from Mencius, the 'second sage' of Confucianism:

Quote

2A:2
“May I ask in what it is that you are superior?”
曰、「我知言、我善養吾浩然之氣。」
“I understand language, and I am good at nourishing my vast qi.”
「敢問何謂浩然之氣。」
“What do you mean by ‘vast qi’”?
曰、「難言也。」 「其爲氣也、至大至剛以直 養而無害、則塞于天地之間。其爲氣也、配義與道無是、餒矣。是集義所生者、非義襲而取之也。行有不慊於心、則餒矣。我故曰、『吿子未嘗知義、』以其外之 也。必有事焉而勿正、心勿忘、勿助長也。無若宋人然。宋人有閔其苗之不長而揠之者芒芒然歸、謂其人曰、;『今日病矣、豫助苗長矣。』其子趨而往視之、苗則 槁矣。天下之不助苗長者寡矣。以爲無益而舍之者、不耘苗者也。助之長者、揠苗者也。非徒無益、而又害之。」
“That is difficult to explain. qi can be developed to great levels of quantity and stability by correctly nourishing it and not damaging it, to the extent that it fills the space between Heaven and Earth. In developing qi, if you are connected with Justice and the Way, you will never be in want of it. It is something that is produced by accumulating Justice, and is not something that you can grab from superficial attempts at Justice. If you act without mental composure, you will become qi-starved.”
“Therefore I would say that Gao Zi has not yet understood Justice, since he regards it as something external. You must be willing to work at it, understanding that you cannot have precise control over it. You can't forget about it, but you can't force it to grow, either.”
“You don't want to be like the man from Song. There was a man from Song who was worried about the slow growth of his crops and so he went and yanked on them to accelerate their growth. Empty-headed, he returned home and announced to his people: ‘I am so tired today. I have been out stretching the crops.’ His son ran out to look, but the crops had already withered. Those in the world who don't ‘help their crops by pulling’ are few indeed. There are also those who regard all effort as wasteful and don't even weed their crops. But those who think they can hurry their growth along by forcing it, are not only not helping their qi, but actually harming it!” (Translated by Charles Muller, http://www.acmuller.net/con-dao/mencius.html#div-4, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

There is another quote which I will look for and post.   as regards this   9 hours ago, Lairg said: 9 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said: Mencius said, Qi flows from intent.   I agree with that.   The question then is:  does that intent arise before Existence?     I was only quoting dawei and as I noted above I am not in complete agreement with it, however what you seem to be asking is if there is something real that precedes existence which can in some sense have "intent" and possibly even be a creative power influencing existence.  Is that a correct interpretation?   ZYD

[Zhongyongdaoist]

As for this:

 

24 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

There is another quote which I will look for and post.

 

I did find the quote I was looking for, it is however, long and dealing with it will take sometime.  It does support what dawei said though without looking at it more, I am still not sure that "flow" is the right word.  Among other things it uses the word 志, zhì (aspiration / ambition / the will) instead of yi as I mentioned in my post.

I'll have more to say soon.   ZYD

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

As for this:

 

 

I did find the quote I was looking for, it is however, long and dealing with it will take sometime.  It does support what dawei said though without looking at it more, I am still not sure that "flow" is the right word.  Among other things it uses the word 志, zhì (aspiration / ambition / the will) instead of yi as I mentioned in my post.

I'll have more to say soon.   ZYD

 

This is from Eno, on page 5: This seems a better phrase than my aged memory of it. 

 

https://chinatxt.sitehost.iu.edu/Thought/Mengzi2.pdf

 

“The will is the leader of the qi, and qi is something that fills the body. Wherever the will leads the qi follows. Thus there is a saying, ‘Grasp your will and do not dissipate your qi.’” Gongsun Chou said, “On the one hand you have said, ‘Wherever the will leads the qi will follow.’ But you have also said, ‘Grasp your will and do not dissipate your qi.’ Is there not an inconsistency?” Mencius answered, “When the will is unified it moves the qi. But when the qi is unified, it can move the will. For example, when you see a man stumble or rush about, this is the action of his qi. In such cases, it has turned back upon the heart and moved it.”

[dawei]

12 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

I agree with that.   The question then is:  does that intent arise before Existence?

 

 

 

Not sure I follow. Can you rephrase or give an example. 

[Lairg]

In the Hindu tradition, the universe goes out of existence and then reappears.  The gap is called a Mahapralaya.   There are lesser pralayas including when this solar system goes out and reappears in a more advanced state.

 

Thus before the universes first appeared there must have been some intent for them to do so.

 

That intent, in my perception, occurs before Existence.  Before Existence is Beingness.  Beingness intends and Existence appears - providing experience for Beingness, until Beingness has had enough

 

The standard human conceals a thread of Beingness - hence has authority within Existence

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

Thanks for that as I understand your point better. This is sliding into cosmology a bit but I think I found a way to keep it tied to the OP. 

I've easily spent more than a decade researching chinese cosmology texts/passages and reading lots of papers on it. One of the most interesting findings is that while there are several very detailed and interesting cosmologies, and overlap usually with other texts, Laozi's DDJ42 is the most simple and succint and no other text seems to follow his terminology, particular 'Three':  Dao > One > Two > Three > Ten Thousand Things.  But, Liezi and Zhuanzi actually come close without using numbers and instead describing the dormant arising.

 

Liezi mentions four stages which can be said to align to Laozi's three steps; Three is really the first matter to form, and the next step is really just Ten Thousand 3's arising and interacting.  Zhuangzi mentions, quoting Chai’s tranlation:

In the Great Beginning there was nothingness, nonbeing, and namelessness. From it arose the One, an oneness that was without form. When things obtained it they were thus born and this was called Virtue. Before there were forms and divisions, they were innumerable though without separation, and this was called the Order of Things. From this flowing and moving things were born and once they became complete they gave birth to principles that were called Forms. Pure tranquility is the perfection of virtue, effeminacy and weakness are the function of Dao, and calm empty-nothingness is the ancestor of the myriad things. Using these three, one falls into formlessness and formlessness is what we call the One. With the One, one mindlessly merges with all under heaven.

 

I more recently found this and seems a rare mention of De (Virtue here, but others as Power, Efficacy, etc) in cosmology. Zhuangzi's mention of 'when things obtained it' points back to Laozi 39.  There is a mention of three but refer to the combining of pure tranquility (De), effeminacy and weakness (Dao) and calm empty-nothingness (Ten Thousand Things), that fall back to One.

 

But Chai makes clear that Zhuangzi does not appear to equate Dao with One and says:

Since the One is affiliated with Dao and dwells in the realm of nothingness, the One for Zhuangzi was neither a numeric singularity nor monistic absolute; rather, it served as a holistic representation of the unfathomable mystery of Dao. To take the One as pertaining to Dao alone is to stop viewing it as One; to take the One as pertaining to humanity alone is also to stop viewing it as One.

 

Now, my attempt to bring this all back to “will leads Qi”, “intent arising before existence”, and “before existence is beingness”.

The gap called Mahapralaya reminded me a bit of the Oscillating Universe theory which has the problem that entropy doesn’t decrease it only increases. So how would one overcome that? Well, an outside influence could ‘will’ it or have ‘intent’ to do so. Religiously, people might think God but I’m sticking to the Chinese models where Dao (Dao) is clearly the primordial potential-nothingness that bubbles up (Huainanzi says Dao awoke gave rise to space which gave rise to Primal Qi; Eva Wong comments on Liezi as Primal Oneness leads to Primal Emerging, or Primal Qi as vapor), to One (Undifferentiated Qi and space). The undifferentiated then separates (Two as Yin and Yang). These two interact, and produce shapes and form (Three). These shapes and forms multiple (Ten Thousand).

 

There seems to be a thread that strings all this together: Dao, De, Qi, One, Two, Three. I have long thought of De as, ‘Dao in you’ and why I was curious it doesn’t show up in cosmology but see it in Zhuangzi. If Dao is the potential-nothingness, possessing all possibilities it would seem that De, Wu Wei and Zi Ran infuse or transport will, intent, instinct, and non-being as becoming being into life.

 

This would account for: Will (De, Dao in you) leads Qi (Dao potential bubbles up). And that will (or intent) is before the Ten Thousand (existence). Non-being as being is before existence. Laozi 40 in Guodian says: The things of this world arise from being, and they arise from non-being.

 

BTW: I see Laozi’s Dao>One>Two>Three>Ten Thousand as the double slit experiment…

 

[Lairg]

Pythagoras tells us that numbers are alive.  How can an abstract quality be alive?

 

Still, I have worked with a lot of numbers and they do not like being misused.

 

It feels to me that numbers are part of Beingness.

 

 

[rene]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:00 PM, dawei said:

There seems to be a thread that strings all this together: Dao, De, Qi, One, Two, Three. I have long thought of De as, ‘Dao in you’ and why I was curious it doesn’t show up in cosmology but see it in Zhuangzi. If Dao is the potential-nothingness, possessing all possibilities it would seem that De, Wu Wei and Zi Ran infuse or transport will, intent, instinct, and non-being as becoming being into life.

 

It might be that nothingness does not possess potential or possibilities; they arise unboundaried with becoming.

 

To me, De is the efficacy when Zi Ran aligns (without intent) with Wu Wei...

And your thread is tied in a circle of Dao. (-:

 

Perpetual IMO applied.