Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

16 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

As far as any transmission that I received from Norbu, this is how it began. I was in Fields Books in San Fransisco way back in 1989 when it all started. 

 

Love that place.  Fields Books is the best.

Edited May 17, 2022 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Love that place.  Fields books is the best.

It was a great shop. I believe they are just an online retailer now. 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

What do we do with this life?  A phrase from the Sefer Yetzirah, a book of Jewish mysticism, comes to mind: running and returning.  To my mind this phrase refers to a rhythmic oscillation between nondual and dualistic points of view.  Could it be that it's not enough to run, not enough to reach the point where all this nondual stuff makes sense and just stay there basking forever in the heavenly light?  I think the "return" from nondual consciousness back into the mundane dualistic world is an equally important, and often underemphasized, part of the journey.  To me returning means integrating some of the openness and warmth of the nondual perspective into our work, our art, our forum writing style, our relationships. It means relating to samsara narvanistically.  Creating heaven on earth.

Your heaven on earth is warm, friendly and creative, my heaven on earth involves active subtle energy healers who know what is in people’s hearts (for example Saint Seraphim of Sarov). The non-dualist must see this as too dual, I see the return of the non-dualist as not enough. 

[liminal_luke]

14 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Your heaven on earth is warm, friendly and creative, my heaven on earth involves active subtle energy healers who know what is in people’s hearts (for example Saint Seraphim of Sarov). The non-dualist must see this as too dual, I see the return of the non-dualist as not enough. 

 

I'm not familiar with Saint Seraphim of Sarov but is it really true that nondualists think subtle energy healers are "too dual"?  Although I've got a lot to say on this thread, I'm not really a nondualist, at least not an accomplished nondualist.  (For proof, look no further than my wording.  The truly awakened don't use phrases like "accomplished nondualist."  Ah well...)  Perhaps those more immersed in nondual traditions can speak up, but I don't see why they'd object to subtle energy healers.  At least not good ones! 

 

(Years ago I took classes in the art of ayurvedic bodywork.  My teacher put great stock in developing a quiet, meditative mindset.  For him, the quality of a practioneers mind while giving a massage was everything.  I suspect there's few things in life more healing than a nondual touch.) 

Edited May 18, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Bindi]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I'm not familiar with Saint Seraphim of Sarov but is it really true that nondualists think subtle energy healers are "too dual"?  Although I've got a lot to say on this thread, I'm not really a nondualist, at least not an accomplished nondualist.  (For proof, look no further than my wording.  The truly awakened don't use phrases like "accomplished nondualist."  Ah well...)  Perhaps those more immersed in nondual traditions can speak up, but I don't see why they'd object to subtle energy healers.  At least not good ones! 

 

I have previously been informed on the authority of dwai that development of the subtle energy body no matter for what purpose is dualistic and therefore not it.

 

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

(Years ago I took classes in the art of ayurvedic bodywork.  My teacher put great stock in developing a quiet, meditative mindset.  For him, the quality of a practioneers mind while giving a massage was everything.  I suspect there's few things in life more healing than a nondual touch.) 

What is nondual about a meditative mindset whilst giving a massage? Anyway to me this is setting the bar very low in terms of what is possible with energy healing. 

[liminal_luke]

14 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I have previously been informed on the authority of dwai that development of the subtle energy body no matter for what purpose is dualistic and therefore not it.

 

Subtle energy development may not be it, but the same can be said for cooking and writing poetry and dancing at a sibling's wedding. Nondualists might do all of these things (I hope so!) but they do them without a solid sense of self.  Although nondualist's are notoriously unpredictable, I imagine @dwai coming along any moment and asking a question something along the lines of...who develops the subtle energy body?  If we're lucky, @steve will accompany this refrain on nondual guitar.

 

 

Quote

What is nondual about a meditative mindset whilst giving a massage? Anyway to me this is setting the bar very low in terms of what is possible with energy healing. 

 

Saint Saraphim of Sarov I am not.

Edited May 18, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Lairg]

My own experience of Existence (Reality) is that there is a spectrum from what humans call Spirit to what they call Matter.   The duality of spirit and matter occurs only from the anchor point of the observer's awareness.

 

The real duality seems to be Beingness and Existence.   During the Mahapralaya all Existence ceases and only Beingness is.

 

Then the question is:  do humans reside in Beingness or Existence?

 

How to test?

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Lairg

[Bindi]

Quote

 

Nonduality… is everywhere, all the time, but it is rarely recognised or understood. 
 

https://thescienceofmeditation.org/2019/10/27/nonduality-and-its-central-role-to-understanding-meditation/

It is a way of perceiving that goes on in the background, it is always there, sometimes it’s noticed either in meditation or not in meditation, but non-dualists think that this way of perceiving is better than body level perception or emotional or mental ways of perceiving, and work towards perceiving from this level as much as possible. Still sounds like anandamaya kosha to me. 
 

Meditation perhaps brings a person to an early direct experience of nonduality, but without recognising earlier perception levels the nondual level is erroneously over-valued. 
 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bindi

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Your heaven on earth is warm, friendly and creative, my heaven on earth involves active subtle energy healers who know what is in people’s hearts (for example Saint Seraphim of Sarov). The non-dualist must see this as too dual, I see the return of the non-dualist as not enough. 

Please elaborate more. My experience that I shared before was energetic. Although, some may disagree that are from the same tradition. 

[steve]

21 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

who develops the subtle energy body?  

 

who plays the nondual guitar?

 

Spoiler

Brushy One-string!

How do you know??!

One fucking string!!!

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Ramana Maharshi’s first realisation was ‘I am not my body’. Starting at the beginning. But if this is merely accepted as true from an intellectual position, then it is not realised, and it doesn’t count. Same with disidentifying from the emotional and mental levels, if it is just learnt intellectual assent, it doesn’t count. Without these disidentifications actually being realised, errors can be made further down the line. 

[dwai]

43 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Subtle energy development may not be it, but the same can be said for cooking and writing poetry and dancing at a sibling's wedding. Nondualists might do all of these things (I hope so!) but they do them without a solid sense of self.  Although nondualist's are notoriously unpredictable, I imagine @dwai coming along any moment and asking a question something along the lines of...who develops the subtle energy body?  If we're lucky, @steve will accompany this refrain on nondual guitar.

How well you know me @liminal_luke  

PS: the guitar, musician and music are one when music is created.
 Ask @steve on the internet if it resonates…

 

The subtle body is certainly dual. But recognizing the nondual reality will certainly help “share” certain aspects of the subtle and causal layers. 
 

Does a drop of water disappear into the ocean, or does it become the ocean?   
 

Reminds of a powerful story @silent thunder once shared of a western Buddhist scholar who went to visit a Daoist Master, asking to learn about “daoist enligthenment”. 
 

Quote

 

Saint Saraphim of Sarov I am not.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by dwai

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Ramana Maharshi’s first realisation was ‘I am not my body’. Starting at the beginning. But if this is merely accepted as true from an intellectual position, then it is not realised, and it doesn’t count. Same with disidentifying from the emotional and mental levels, if it is just learnt intellectual assent, it doesn’t count. Without these disidentifications actually being realised, errors can be made further down the line. 

Spot on! 

[steve]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

PS: the guitar, musician and music are one when music is created.
 Ask @steve on the internet if it resonates…

 

This is where so much passion and devotion come from. There is also absorption in the music that can be nostalgic and emotional. And there’s the drunk friend with OCD that hangs out with me, especially when writing or before performing…

[stirling]

40 minutes ago, Bindi said:

It is a way of perceiving that goes on in the background, it is always there, sometimes it’s noticed either in meditation or not in meditation, but non-dualists think that this way of perceiving is better than body level perception or emotional or mental ways of perceiving, and work towards perceiving from this level as much as possible. Still sounds like anandamaya kosha to me. 
 

Meditation perhaps brings a person to an early direct experience of nonduality, but without recognising earlier perception levels the nondual level is erroneously over-valued.

 

Seeing all appearances as ultimately empty of intrinsic existence is just the base layer of seeing. It's not a special way of perceiving, and once seen and understood, no amount of tomfoolery, drugs, drink, sleeping, meditation or even death makes it go away.

 

Many who see it for the first time say they "died". Why? Because they took a step outside of their perception of reality from the perspective of a "person" and realized that what "they" are continues without this illusory perspective. This idea of immortality is true, but no "person" is immortal and what survives HAS no agency. The emptiness, which is what "we" are, is what is immortal. Awakening is simply realizing what "I" really is. 

 

There is no "better" way to perceive... there is just perceiving. Body, emotion, and mentality don't GO anywhere, they are just realized to be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The deepening of non-dual seeing takes care of itself. There is no-one in charge of deepening it, or possible way to improve upon how it is. 

 

Meditation is a way to see how this could be reality, and repeated practice can be a way to stabilize this seeing, BUT there is always a moment where one awakens to what it is - sees outside of "self" and realizes that being has always happened without there being a "self" at all. 

 

Being as a "self" is a oxymoron. 

 

Just the opinion of an "accomplished nondualist", or "oxymoron". 

 

Quote

Still sounds like anandamaya kosha to me. 

 

Sounds like... maybe. Is "anadamaya" an experiential insight, or something your read about? One is valuable, one merely casts a shadow worth investigation in meditation. 

[liminal_luke]

Maybe it's just me but I think we've got a nice vibe going on here now.  Dualist?  Nondualist?  I no longer care.  I'm just grooving to the music.

[steve]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I have previously been informed on the authority of dwai that development of the subtle energy body no matter for what purpose is dualistic and therefore not it.

 

I think it's useful to keep in mind that no one here can determine what is valid or necessary for anyone but themselves, .

We don't often add that disclaimer to our opinions but it should be understood.

 

[Lairg]

In my observation The Source of All uses subtle bodies, including human, as a means through which to experience separation

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, Lairg said:

In my observation The Source of All uses subtle bodies, including human, as a means through which to experience separation

Swami Sarvapriyananda tells a story about the purpose of samsara which I find is very on the nose —

 

Once a young monk asked his teacher, “if there is only the nondual reality, what is the purpose of this world and all the things in it?”

 

The teacher smiled and said, “I’ll tell you, but first can you fetch me some water from the river. I’m thirsty.”

 

The student ran to the river nearby, and brought his teacher a glass of water. 
 

The teacher looked up and roared, “what is this you’ve got me?!?”

 

The student was stunned at the sudden outburst of the teacher, but replied, “but sir, you asked me for the water…”

 

The teacher said, “I asked for water, why the glass?”

 

The student’s question was answered. 

[dawn90]

You can see; a car; as something containing petrol; or as something running on petrol.

Depends what you value.

A car is a car no matter what. You could probably dismantle it as long as you have what looks like a car, most people would say it's a car.

If you put petrol on the floor there's no way people would call it a car.

A car uses petrol, petrol doesn't use a car.

The essence of the car if you go by the soul of the car you could argue. Is the petrol. It lives by it.

But still.

Nobody would call a car just by looking at it's petrol.

 

Without shape you might as well call every car petrol.

You distinguish things; you care about things because you prefere one shape from another - I'm responding to the idea that seeing everything the same leads to greater compassion and empathy; in my opinion it doesn't, because everything is the same.

Your likes; and dislikes must be as strong as each other - even for enlightenment: you must "hate" not being enlightened. You clearly don't like it, why else would you be doing what you are doing?

 

You want, this and that and the other thing. And you're not doing anything that isn't that.

You couldn't move if you were not dual.

Edited May 18, 2022 by dawn90

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, ralis said:

Please elaborate more. My experience that I shared before was energetic. Although, some may disagree that are from the same tradition. 

Dwai divorces nondual experience from any underlying subtle energy, and since he’s one of the biggest promoters of non-dualism here, and since a lot of other self-professed nondualists seem to agree with a lot that he says, I can tend to take his statements as the nondual perspective. 
 

I personally think nondual perception is relatable to the subtle energy body. 
 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Spot on! 

Which begs the question did you start with a realisation that you were not this body? Not as a taught concept but as an experience that shatters the belief that you are this one body in this one lifetime? How about all the other nondualists, have they shattered this first identification, or is body disidentification a learnt theory or a sub-realisation of the nondual realisation? 
 

My own intrinsic assumption was shattered when I was twelve. 
 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Quote

The JIvan-mukta exists as the pure Self without any contact with the physical or the subtle body. Whatever he does in the world is like what God Himself as the resident of every one’s body keeps doing. Since there is no Ego there, the power of God works wonderfully without any obstacle.

 

https://luthar.com/?s=Anandamaya+kosha&submit=Search

This seems clear, if you are truly disidentified from the physical and the subtle body there will be no ego. Nondualists can examine this for themselves, if there is any ego, any smugness, ever, there is still identification with the physical or subtle body, and they are not operating from their pure Self. Also for the Jivan-mukta the power of God works wonderfully without any obstacle. 
 

To equate nonduality with the ultimate, the pure Self or Atman, is to inherently claim that because you are nondually ‘awake’ you are beyond ego, and that God works wonderfully without any obstacle in you. 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, steve said:

 

I think it's useful to keep in mind that no one here can determine what is valid or necessary for anyone but themselves, .

We don't often add that disclaimer to our opinions but it should be understood.

 

“Consciousness works precisely the way I said it does. You can believe what you want though.” ~ dwai 

 

 

[old3bob]

Well, another take is that if all "bodies" are under the mastery and alignment of Pure Self then there can be no limiting "contact" with bodies,  for then a permeated or existing purity is connected and working through and in all bodies.  An analogy:  in an endless ocean permeated with light or of light there is no real or separate darkness somewhere that is possible, thus any darkness or limitation perceived is only a veil or appearance identified with.  So what does Satguru first see in another being, I'd say it is not veils of limitations but the same Brahman (or Self)  that they have realized within.  (and "within" is just a term for in an ocean there is no separate within or without)   

Edited May 18, 2022 by old3bob